Were We Founded As A Christian Nation?

reply to post by OutKast Searcher

Oh...I see...you are a religious extremist.

So what is your solution...convert to Christianity or be kicked out of the country...or maybe that is too much work...maybe just execute those that don't convert???

No, that type of behavior is reserved for radical Muslims...

I believe the reason our system worked so well in the past and is failing so miserable now is because of the decline in moral values and ethics in this country. What was once a ‘Christian Nation’ full of people who lived by a certain set of values has been replaced by the ‘anything goes’ crowd. The system is wholly inadequate to government people like this. Many American’s these days are more concerned with fame, fortune, power, self gratification, etc and have no moral compass to limit their gluttony, which IMO is why our nation is in great decline.

As far as a solution, we must all keep fighting for what we believe in. I think we will watch the ship sink until we hit a breaking point, at which time all bets are off…..I don’t know what the outcome will be. I do know that things can only continue to decline for so long…it will come to an end at some point.

The USA was founded by secret societies, not Christianity

The notion that America was founded as a Christian nation is a central animating element of the ideology of the Christian Right. It touches every aspect of life and culture in this, one of the most successful and powerful political movements in American history. The idea that America's supposed Christian identity has somehow been wrongly taken, and must somehow be restored, permeates the psychology and vision of the entire movement. No understanding of the Christian Right is remotely adequate without this foundational concept.

But the Christian nationalist narrative has a fatal flaw: it is based on revisionist history that does not stand up under scrutiny. The bad news is that to true believers, it does not have to stand up to the facts of history to be a powerful and animating part of the once and future Christian nation. Indeed, through a growing cottage industry of Christian revisionist books and lectures now dominating the curricula of home schools and many private Christian academies, Christian nationalism becomes a central feature of the political identity of children growing up in the movement. The contest for control of the narrative of American history is well underway.

History is powerful. That's why it is important for the rest of society not only to recognize the role of creeping Christian historical revisionism, but our need to craft a compelling and shared story of American history, particularly as it relates to the role of religion and society. We need it in order to know not how the religious Right is wrong, but to know where we ourselves stand in the light of history, in relation to each other, and how we can better envision a future together free of religious prejudice, and ultimately, religious warfare.

History is powerful

This is a great article about the Christian rights attempts to rewrite history. A lie is a lie.

Originally posted by seabag

No, that type of behavior is reserved for radical Muslims...

I believe the reason our system worked so well in the past and is failing so miserable now is because of the decline in moral values and ethics in this country. What was once a ‘Christian Nation’ full of people who lived by a certain set of values has been replaced by the ‘anything goes’ crowd. The system is wholly inadequate to government people like this. Many American’s these days are more concerned with fame, fortune, power, self gratification, etc and have no moral compass to limit their gluttony, which IMO is why our nation is in great decline.

What worked so well in the past? Slavery? Genocide? Women not having rights? This is the good old days in your opinion? We have the exact same issues today that we had in the very beginning. The debate between Jefferson and Hamilton are the same arguments we have today.

Actually, we are not. Christian principles are certainly embedded in much of the thought. But by design, we are not.

One must not confuse a common psychology with the notion of religious dogma. Simply because they spoke and thought in certain common way, based on their anglican past s does not denote that there was any diety worship leading the charge.

reply to post by LDragonFire

What worked so well in the past? Slavery? Genocide? Women not having rights? This is the good old days in your opinion? We have the exact same issues today that we had in the very beginning. The debate between Jefferson and Hamilton are the same arguments we have today.

There are always going to be differences of opinion on many issues. The difference back them was more people shared common values and believed in our country. We are more diverse today, less people share common values and many more people today are actively working to change and corrupt our system for personal gain. 

reply to post by seabag


Personal definitions of "Morality" cannot be used as an excuse to judge an entire nation of people.

What you consider "moral" I consider highly "immoral" in regards to religion and it's indoctrination of young minds.

See how I could say that our current conditions are the result of the increase in radical religious thinking and individuals over the course of the last 30 years?

From radical Islam to Radical Christianity, to Fred Phelps & Scientology.

Now I don't think the above cause blaming a whole group of people for an entire nation's problem is an exercise in insanity.

~Tenth

I think the world has enough religious theocracies without America joining in, with their own brand.

reply to post by DarthMuerte


I consider myself to be a Christian, but I am sure, if I were to espouse here all that I believe that you would say I am not a Christian. It is historically clear that many of the founding fathers believed that this was a Christian nation. But there were also many founding fathers that rejected the idea that this was a Christian nation.

Take Thomas Paine as one good example: In his pamphlet "Common Sense", Paine stated that this country was a providence from God. His overall purpose in writing "Common Sense" was to motivate as many people as possible to support a declaration of independence from the government of King George III. Years later, Paine would right "The Age of Reason"; the purpose of "The Age of Reason" was to debunk Christianity as a whole.

Between the Declaration of Independence, through the Articles of Confederation, up until the ratification of the Constitution, there were 6 or 7 states (I can't remember exact number as I haven't studied this in years), that had state constitutions that required public officials to be members of a church in good standing. But this was ONLY 6 or 7, not all 13.

The point of all of this is very simple and stated again: Some believed that this was a Christian nation, and some did not. Some were deists and believed in a "God", a "Creator", "Nature's God", but they were not Christians. Most of the founding fathers were well aware what could happen if they declared this nation to be Christian...what would happen is arguments of WHICH sect or brand of Christianity? This is seen at many places on the internet where Christians feel they need to proselytize. First you go after the atheists, and when you don't get anywhere then you go after the Jehovah Witnesses, the Mormons, and finally the Roman Catholics.

You cheered and celebrated when they said that Osama Bin Laden was dead. The Bible tells you not to rejoice when your enemies fall. You "Christians" booed Ron Paul when he cited Jesus' golden rule "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"... you booed because you seem to enjoy the military industrial complex and the continuing of wars and rumors of wars. Ron Paul is better Christian, he doesn't wear it on his sleeve. You celebrate victims of the death penalty, even though the death penalty is not applied in a Christian manner in this country..."everything shall be established by two or three witnesses"....which is why one of the commandments is: "thou shalt not bear false witness". This is not talking about everyday lies...this is about lies in a trial. Jesus told his disciples to go out and preach but leave your beggar bags at home...but I have seen most of your tel-evangelists begging for money (tithes). You believe in a Pre-Tribulation rapture, yet how many times does Jesus say "those that endure until the end shall be saved"? You demand prayer in schools, yet Jesus said, don't be like the hypocrites that pray in the street, go into a closet and pray to your Father in heaven.

You spend so much time telling the world that you are Christian, you don't have the time to actually learn it and practice it.

reply to post by seabag


Like churches that preach the prosperity doctrine? Believe in God and wealth will find you?

Originally posted by seabag

There are always going to be differences of opinion on many issues. The difference back them was more people shared common values and believed in our country. We are more diverse today, less people share common values and many more people today are actively working to change and corrupt our system for personal gain. 

Please enlighten us what you mean by common values?

During the revolutionary war 60% of the colonists were apathetic to politics 10% were Tories and almost 30% were patriots.

Slavery was considered good and was supported by the bible back then, this was a common value.

reply to post by seabag

designed for people of high morals and ethics; people who fear God and strive to do the right thing every day

This sentence has so much mental abuse, i feel sad for the person with thought process. A person who believes moral are learned from a book, a person who believes who should be fearful and submit to something.

Muslim radicals? said The pot to the kettle.

Originally posted by LDragonFire
reply to post by seabag

 

Like churches that preach the prosperity doctrine? Believe in God and wealth will find you?

Thanks for reminding me. I am of the understanding that Jesus said: "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of the needle than a rich man to get to heaven"....something like that

reply to post by dirkpotters


Thomas Paine was a "Deist" A believer in God but not in the supernatural elements of religion, i.e Jesus, Miracles etc. Paine became a Deist before he left England for America at the age of 37 in 1774.:-

www.investigatingatheism.info...


en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by DarthMuerte


What does the phrase "Christian Nation" mean?

I think everyone has their own idea of what that means, but we can only discuss it rationally if there is one meaning. So, if you don't mind, please let us know what is meant by "Christian Nation".

Originally posted by alldaylong
reply to post by dirkpotters

 

Thomas Paine was a "Deist" A believer in God but not in the supernatural elements of religion, i.e Jesus, Miracles etc. Paine became a Deist before he left England for America at the age of 37 in 1774.:-

www.investigatingatheism.info...


en.wikipedia.org...

Agreed. Yes, I am well aware of that.
I understand why you posted that to me. Most Christians assume that when one uses the word "God", that they mean the Christian God as defined by their brand of Christianity. My purpose was to only show that Paine did mention God in "Common Sense" but rejected Christianity in "The Age of Reason"

From a founding document, (The Declaration of Independence).

" We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, and that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights..."

Key words here are "created" and Creator, and there you have it.

Originally posted by alldaylong

Thomas Paine was a "Deist" A believer in God but not in the supernatural elements of religion, i.e Jesus, Miracles etc. Paine became a Deist before he left England for America at the age of 37 in 1774.:-

Yes. I've been in a few of these threads in my 20 years of forums.

These founders - intelligent men - - discussed religion (among other things) in letters to each other. Posters who want to prove they were Christians (when they are not) can pick and choose certain writings where they may have been debating Christianity in a letter writing debate with another.

There is a lot of contradictory statements in their writings. Unless you have the full "conversation" - - - you really don't understand their position.

I've seen this over and over - - - in these Christian Nation threads.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


Freedom of religion and wall of separation are two totally different things.

The first one says you can worship whatever deity you want whether it be God, Satan, or the great spaghetti monster in the sky.

The second deals with religion and politics.

Originally posted by Fromabove
From a founding document, (The Declaration of Independence).

" We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, and that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights..."

Key words here are "created" and Creator, and there you have it.

Creator wasn't even in the first 2 drafts.

It was kind of an after thought tagged on at the end. And Creator refers to the Deist concept of God.

Originally posted by Fromabove
From a founding document, (The Declaration of Independence).

" We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, and that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights..."

Key words here are "created" and Creator, and there you have it.

The non specification of 'God' is on purpose.

They placed "Creator" as means to make sure that no king or government or other entity could usurpt the rights of the people proclaimed therein.

Not to specify that it was a "Christian Nation".

~Tenth

Since when is being a Christian the definition of moral character? I am not a Christian but strive daily to be the best person I can be. Blame the decline of America on forgetting it's Christian morality all you wish but maybe all this religious disagreement,constant spewing of hateful disdain has done deeper damage to our spiritual selves than we can even imagine?

America was founded in the idea we were free to worship in whatever we choose. Some of our founding fathers chose to be Christian but not all. This country has never been meant only for Christian consumption.

Thusly,Christianity is not the only religion who believes in moral,righteous living. It is that pompous idea which will continue to feed the moral decline.