No, the S37 isn't up there with the F22 for the simple fact that the S37 is a technology demonstrator and the F22 is an (almost) in-service fighter.

To digress.

The US has the best radar in the world? Who invented it?

The US has the best jets in the world? Who invented them? The same pair of arguing European powers who invented radar.

Who co-operated on the Typhoon 2?

Who decided dogfighting was the past and missiles the future? Who learned that Mig 23s were really manouverable? The hard way?

Who went to the South Atlantic with the most radical, most manouverable jet on earth? Who was flying American jets? Who won?

Americans have proven very good at building fast cars that can't handle either.

The US have consistently had to play catch-up? The Sabre was better than the 15 and that has been true of almost every US product since. Even jets that were not built for dogfighting can be dogfought, but now you're asking more of your pilot than you should. With the exception of the Tomcat and the Phantom US jets have been excellent dog-fighters.

But Russians used old technology to better effect.

The Foxbat was built to beat a bomber that never happened and used valve-powered radar. It could put out way more power in sheer grunt and burn through western jamming before chip-run radar could get through Russian jamming.

I'll take a Gryphon any day.

Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by American Mad Man


That is exactly my point. Europe isn't worried about fighting a powerfull enemy. US military doctrine is to be able to fight - and beat - anyone. Could you honestly say that the UK would stand up to say Russia on their own?

defensive : yes
offensive: no
we dont have the troops they have but for them to get here is another matter.
we've got the tech and crews to use them waiting for a mission just like that.
hell thats the been the idea of britain for centuries, island fortress.

The problem is that no major war has ever been won defensively. Russia could take the UK if it were on it's own my friend - they have the technology and the superior man power.

Man for man, I believe you to be the better side, but Russia would take you in the end I'm sorry to say.

Yer the UK in the areas of technology and manpower dont stand a chance, unless American reinforcements arrive very quickly.

If America wasnt so far away from Russia and hard to invade, Russia would have invaded them dyuring the cold war.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- I wouldn't go basing anything on what an F15 could do as if that were in any way analogous to the Eurofighter.

But they are. The F-15 has among the best radar in the world. They can not pick up an F/A-22 when looking head to head. There is no way that the Typhoon can do anything close to that do to the fact that it doesn't have an internal weapons bay.

- AMM do you really think that LO radar is a new concept? You have got to be kidding me. In the UK we've known about and have been working on this for decades.

No - I do not believe it is a new idea, but I do have confidence that the Raptors radar is the best in the world at hiding it's self.


I doubt the radar is 'better'. Again I would bet my shirt on it having certain capabilities the Typhoon hasn't got and vis versa.


I would bet my shirt that if you were to let a fighter pilot pick, he'd pick the Raptors

- So OK, you say you know people and I say I know people. As for 'high ground'? LOL, I think I simply ask you to be a little more open minded and not to simply believe everything you get told.

Hey - I trust the guy, and he is in a position to know wat he is talking about. And would you not agree that having a higher cieling is to your advantage?

- Don't get the idea that I'm saying the F22 is a turkey, I'm not, but who - wherever they're based - would admit to it being less than 'best by several country miles' now......particularly given it's price?

I am not talking price here - as I have said, the Raptor i clearly no the best 'bang for the buck'. But as far as a fighter aircraft, I would say it is in a level all it's own at the moment.

- Well they would say that wouldn't they? We shall see just how capable or limited these programs turn out to be.

Hopefully unlike most (all?) of the SDI tests they don't need to tell the missile where the targets are going to be and when!

Well, the SDI system was started in the 80's. It took untill now to get lasers to work. The targeting will come soon enough. Where there is a dollar, there is a way!

- Given their value I doubt either plane will find itself used much as a recon platform......and you keep making assumptions about Typhoon's stealth abilities. You really should be aware by now that this is not just about the plane itself but, for instance, route planning considering the threat assessment and making allowances for that etc.

I agree that the F/A-22 will not be used extensively in this role. However, it certainly will be used in this role when it's unique abilities are called for.

As for the Typhoons stealth ability - all you need to do is look at a picture showing it has external weapon storage. That tells you all you need to know about it's stealth ability. Since we are comparing two aircraft that have the same role, I asume all other factors to be equal.

- As I keep saying you are making a series of unfounded assumptions (particularly on the Typhoon electronics).

No - I am making a series of assumptions based on the material that pertains to the subject. BIG difference.

Sorry to break this to you but Europe is the home of just about every major modern electronic innovation going.

If you say so.

Tell me how little Phillips (to give you the example of home electronic tech) didn't invent in the last 4 decades would probably be easier and more like it!

Sorry - I didn't really understand that... Could you rephrase?

- Initial costs, operating costs, agility (in a similar comparable configuration) and major parts of the electronics fit.

Ok - I have given you cost. As far as agility, and electronics - I believe you are mistaken. When talking agility, the Raptor doesn't have the restraint of external weapons that the EF does - that is a large advantage. As far as electronics go, I'm going to stick with the 2 supercomputers of the Raptor.

- Naaaa, we can do better than that AMM...

OK then - 7 years it is.

- Like I said, small amounts in small areas and we have the better in a few ourselves.

Speaking of small that accurately describes the F22's load carring ability, wouldn't you say?

Naaa - but I would say that accuratly reflects the amount of ammo the Typhoon will be carrying

Typhoon can carry a combo of 13 missles/fuel pods.

Raptor can carry 6 AMRAAMs and 4 AIM-9x. thats 10 - not exactly slacking considering they are all internally carried. If you put include external mounts, the Raptor can carry 18 missles AND 4 fuel tanks!

Your handful of F22 against the much more numerous Eurofighter isn't ever going to happen.

We are not for fighting each other and neither of us are for selling either to anymore than about half a dozen potential customers none of whom would fight either of us anyway.

Happy days!

(No doubt Fred will tell us off about being off topic , ahem, so yeah personally AMM I don't rate the SU-37/47 as adding up to anything approaching either plane. )

I agree that the US and UK won't be fighting each other soon other then in war games, but I could see the US fighting another country with the EF down the road.

Things change quickly you know

But, getting back to topic - the S-37 doesn't have a chance against the Raptor or Typhoon

Originally posted by American Mad Man
The F-15 has among the best radar in the world. They can not pick up an F/A-22 when looking head to head. There is no way that the Typhoon can do anything close to that do to the fact that it doesn't have an internal weapons bay.

- an F15 isn't a Typhoon. End of.

......and why do you keep talking as if you think the Typhoon (or the F22 for that matter) have no 'anti-stealth' capabilities?

I would bet my shirt that if you were to let a fighter pilot pick, he'd pick the Raptors

- For A2A I don't doubt it..... pilots will always go for any perceived advantage no matter how tiny and marginal.

And would you not agree that having a higher cieling is to your advantage?

- With such a small difference (and obviously dependant on weight carriage)? I'd say it makes very little odds. Weapons fit/weight carriage would interest me far far more.

Well, the SDI system was started in the 80's. It took untill now to get lasers to work. The targeting will come soon enough. Where there is a dollar, there is a way!

- It's getting close to 25yrs now (and then there was seriously expensive the Spartan/Sprint experience to draw from too). That's a lot of real actual other hardware/proper pensions/schools/hospitals/ passed up for the shiny shiny never-happened dream.

As for the Typhoons stealth ability - all you need to do is look at a picture showing it has external weapon storage. That tells you all you need to know about it's stealth ability. Since we are comparing two aircraft that have the same role, I asume all other factors to be equal.

- I'd suggest that a fully loaded Typhoon with everything hanging is hardly reasonable comparison. Those pics are to illustrate the enormous load carrying ability of the plane and to hint at it's A2G strike (multi) role.

A clean Typhoon with it's conformal weapons fit is what you should be considering.

Everything changes when you do!

Sorry - I didn't really understand that... Could you rephrase?

- Yes, I was using Phillips as a flip example. In the area of domestic electronics what innovation over the past 40yrs hasn't Phillips invented?

. When talking agility, the Raptor doesn't have the restraint of external weapons that the EF does - that is a large advantage.

- Oh come on AMM. Who ever flew into a fight with everything hanging? That's just silly. If you're talking an A2A agile fight the Typhoon would have nothing hanging under the wing....except a whole bunch of surprises for the 'foo' who took it on.

As far as electronics go, I'm going to stick with the 2 supercomputers of the Raptor.

- Okey dokey, I'll take brand new Euro tech anyday of the week.......15yrs down the line when we haven't bothered to spend on updating it then I'll think harder about it.

OK then - 7 years it is.

- I think that's probably as good as it gets.

Naaa - but I would say that accuratly reflects the amount of ammo the Typhoon will be carrying

- Touché.

Typhoon can carry a combo of 13 missles/fuel pods.

Raptor can carry 6 AMRAAMs and 4 AIM-9x. thats 10 - not exactly slacking considering they are all internally carried. If you put include external mounts, the Raptor can carry 18 missles AND 4 fuel tanks!

- Yeah but the moment you start hanging stuff off of your plane all your (marginal ) advantages vanish.

I think the Typhoon is rated at carrying greater weights than F22. I'll have to check that one.

I agree that the US and UK won't be fighting each other soon other then in war games, but I could see the US fighting another country with the EF down the road.

Things change quickly you know

- They have a habit of doing that. that's true. I hope we don't. I'm sick of seeing our kit turned years down the line on ourselves (one of those little 'back-door' systems to turn them off would be handy!).

Mind you even in those cases I wouldn't say it showed us much. Saudi have been owners of Tornados for years and have had 'contractors' giving them a hell of a lot of 'help' for a long long time with them. No harm to them but I wouldn't give their guys 5minutes against an RAF crew in similar kit.

But, getting back to topic - the S-37 doesn't have a chance against the Raptor or Typhoon

- *ahem* !

Yes I heartily agree AMM, the Su-37 would take a major kicking from either F22 or Typhoon.













[edit on 26-10-2004 by sminkeypinkey]

Originally posted by Kenshin
Yer the UK in the areas of technology and manpower dont stand a chance, unless American reinforcements arrive very quickly.

If America wasnt so far away from Russia and hard to invade, Russia would have invaded them dyuring the cold war.

doubt it we have the french ,german ,spainish ,italian and austrian forces to help us. some of the best guns and best tech is made here. we have the tech to stop the russians and the power to stop them its just fighting them off.
i dont think russia would have tried if they did they would meet some warm welcomes.

Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by Kenshin
Yer the UK in the areas of technology and manpower dont stand a chance, unless American reinforcements arrive very quickly.

If America wasnt so far away from Russia and hard to invade, Russia would have invaded them dyuring the cold war.

doubt it we have the french ,german ,spainish ,italian and austrian forces to help us. some of the best guns and best tech is made here. we have the tech to stop the russians and the power to stop them its just fighting them off.
i dont think russia would have tried if they did they would meet some warm welcomes.

If you are pinning your hopes on the French and Germans helping you, I feel for you.

As for Russia invading the US - keep dreaming.

Ever heard of M.A.D. ? I this case it wouldn't be completely mutual because Russia couldn't nuke all of the US because there own forces would be there.

Originally posted by American Mad Man


If you are pinning your hopes on the French and Germans helping you, I feel for you.

As for Russia invading the US - keep dreaming.

Ever heard of M.A.D. ? I this case it wouldn't be completely mutual because Russia couldn't nuke all of the US because there own forces would be there.

uhh so the fact that we have been allies and to get to us they would need to go through one of thier borders or through the north sea ( which we own !!)
now lets see best guns availble 3 of the best jets availible several strong navies and well trained armies VS large undertrained army? i take the EU option.
now who said russia VS USA.


[edit on 26-10-2004 by devilwasp]

if we're talkin typhoon v raptor here i would just like to say that i put the question of whether the eurofighter would be at a serious disadvantage to the raptor due to it not being "stealth" to a person in the know. his was response was that the low observability features of the raptor were greatly overstated. yes head on it would be difficuilt to pick up, but otherwise it was pretty easy, or at least not extremely difficuilt. given awacs and astor support i dont think the typhoon would be at any disadvantage. with bvr weapons neither should get into a dogfight so the amount of stores the a/c is carrying is immaterial.

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
The US has the best radar in the world? Who invented it?

Yes. The important question is who perfected it. The US did of course!

The US has the best jets in the world? Who invented them? The same pair of arguing European powers who invented radar.

Yes we do. Even the Typhoon website admits that it is inferior to the F/A-22. Everyoe agrees - the Raptor is the best. The best before that was the Eagle.

Who decided dogfighting was the past and missiles the future? Who learned that Mig 23s were really manouverable? The hard way?

Aparently you are not aware of the fact that the Typhoons guns will be useless because they did not order any ammo for them to save money

We learned the hard way. You didn't learn at all.

Who went to the South Atlantic with the most radical, most manouverable jet on earth? Who was flying American jets? Who won?

Oh good grief! Do you really think the Harrier would stand a chance in hell against a US F-14, F-15, F-16, or F/A-18? Get a grip dude. You aren't living in reality here.

Americans have proven very good at building fast cars that can't handle either.

Riiiiiiiiiiiight. I guess you never heard of the Ford GT40 (past), Saleen S7 (present), or, if you want to compare lower priced cars, the Z06 Corvet - by far the best deal in the world in terms of bang for the buck.

The US have consistently had to play catch-up? The Sabre was better than the 15 and that has been true of almost every US product since. Even jets that were not built for dogfighting can be dogfought, but now you're asking more of your pilot than you should. With the exception of the Tomcat and the Phantom US jets have been excellent dog-fighters.

But Russians used old technology to better effect.

The Foxbat was built to beat a bomber that never happened and used valve-powered radar. It could put out way more power in sheer grunt and burn through western jamming before chip-run radar could get through Russian jamming.

I'll take a Gryphon any day.

A Gryphon over what? A F/A-22? A F-15 Eagle? A F/A-18 Super Hornet?

You do that

Yes. The important question is who perfected it. The US did of course!

yes and the question is who perfected it better ? the UK did like all US tech.

Yes we do. Even the Typhoon website admits that it is inferior to the F/A-22. Everyoe agrees - the Raptor is the best. The best before that was the Eagle.

the best at what though? is the raptor the best at stealth? no is the raptor the best at range? no is the raptor best at multi role? no
you made one plane wooptydo the INFERIOR one i might add.
you have not invented the best helicopter.

Who decided dogfighting was the past and missiles the future? Who learned that Mig 23s were really manouverable? The hard way?

i dunno mabye the guys that invented A2A missiles. which i might add owes some things to germany.

Aparently you are not aware of the fact that the Typhoons guns will be useless because they did not order any ammo for them to save money

so your saying because of some short term problems EVERY typhoon will not have ammo. BTW the ammo we could have its no problem to get more.

We learned the hard way. You didn't learn at all.

think we didnt learn the stuff you did , like not to trust your pilots aim. cough hill 282. cough .Ne Obliviscaris!

Oh good grief! Do you really think the Harrier would stand a chance in hell against a US F-14, F-15, F-16, or F/A-18? Get a grip dude. You aren't living in reality here.

depends i dunno if the F14-18 can stop in midair and fire a stigner while the enemy over shoot ? can it

Riiiiiiiiiiiight. I guess you never heard of the Ford GT40 (past), Saleen S7 (present), or, if you want to compare lower priced cars, the Z06 Corvet - by far the best deal in the world in terms of bang for the buck.

know what FORD stands for?

A Gryphon over what? A F/A-22? A F-15 Eagle? A F/A-18 Super Hornet?

well over any aircraft except the F/A-22 because its stealth and thats not a fair odd, but yeah the Gripen (correct spelling) over any others because of its tech being far advanced than any of the other craft.

You do that

fine then you take the F/A-22 and i'll take a fully production model F23 and see who wins?

[edit on 26-10-2004 by devilwasp]

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
......and why do you keep talking as if you think the Typhoon (or the F22 for that matter) have no 'anti-stealth' capabilities?

I never said they didn't. But anti stealth (just like stealth does not equate to invisability) does not simply cancel out the stealth. So assuming that both aircraft have roughly equal anti stealth systems the Raptor would still have first look because it has such superior stealth.

- With such a small difference (and obviously dependant on weight carriage)? I'd say it makes very little odds. Weapons fit/weight carriage would interest me far far more.

- It's getting close to 25yrs now (and then there was seriously expensive the Spartan/Sprint experience to draw from too). That's a lot of real actual other hardware/proper pensions/schools/hospitals/ passed up for the shiny shiny never-happened dream.

I'd say that pursuit of defense from global thermo-nuclear war is worth it. It has not ended yet, and we are just starting to see the fruts of our labor. As it has been said, a workable 100kw solid state laser should be available by the time the JSF comes into service. That will mean an anti missle system for them. It could negate the effectiveness of missles. That will be the biggest revolution in A2A combat since the missle.

- I'd suggest that a fully loaded Typhoon with everything hanging is hardly reasonable comparison. Those pics are to illustrate the enormous load carrying ability of the plane and to hint at it's A2G strike (multi) role.

A clean Typhoon with it's conformal weapons fit is what you should be considering.

Everything changes when you do!

Wait a second - in what world do planes go to war without weapons loaded? The Typhoon holds it's missles on pylons. The Raptor stores them in bays. Thus when in a combat role the Raptor has a big advantage.

- Yes, I was using Phillips as a flip example. In the area of domestic electronics what innovation over the past 40yrs hasn't Phillips invented?

Maybe you forget that military aircraft eletronics are not exactly domestic, eh?

. - Oh come on AMM. Who ever flew into a fight with everything hanging? That's just silly. If you're talking an A2A agile fight the Typhoon would have nothing hanging under the wing....except a whole bunch of surprises for the 'foo' who took it on.

What do you mean "who flew into a fight with everything hanging"? Every fighter that has ever had misles has had them hanging! If you get too close to the enemy aircraft to use misles then you use guns. If you want to use any kind of short ranged misle you are going to get into an agility fight. Come on Sminkey - we are talking real world here, not some airshow.

- Yeah but the moment you start hanging stuff off of your plane all your (marginal ) advantages vanish.

I think the Typhoon is rated at carrying greater weights than F22. I'll have to check that one.

I don't know about weight, but my guess would be no because the Raptor can carry so many more weapons when maxed out. Of course since the Raptor wasn't designed around strike missions (though it certainly can fullfill that role quite nicely) the Typhoon could be able to handle more wieght to account for bombs.

Ahh.. this is too much!!

the americans are full of it...best in this..best in that.. no competition ..blah ..blah... pit unless theres a real war that can't be disproven......but come you guys suck in hand-eye co-od. No denying that..

Counterstrike, starcraft, warcraft...the russians, europeans and the koreans are the best in that!!

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey

But, getting back to topic - the S-37 doesn't have a chance against the Raptor or Typhoon

- *ahem* !

Yes I heartily agree AMM, the Su-37 would take a major kicking from either F22 or Typhoon.

Su-37? Well, I don't really know, I'd still take that plane instead of a Eurofighter, and especially instead of Raptor, which isn't an excellent plane at all.
If you meant Su-47 (S-37) then I should just say it is just a prototype so far, so you can't really compare these...
And Eurofighter is definately a better plane than F/A-22, Raptor might have several advantages such as stealth, but EF has a better radar, firepower and other stuff...



[edit on 26/10/2004 by khruschev]

yes and the question is who perfected it better ? the UK did like all US tech.

Ohhh right - I guess we - the United States of America, home of the greatest military power in the world - are getting all of our electronics outclassed by the UK what ever you say.

the best at what though?

The best fighter plane in the world.

is the raptor the best at stealth?

Yup - it has the best stealth of any current or projected fighter in the world.

no is the raptor the best at range?

It's range is fine.

no is the raptor best at multi role? no

Actually it just might be. It surely will be great at strike missions with it's stealth super cruise combo. It will be an anti cruise missle platform. It will be the best EW fighter in the world. It will also do a bit of recon. So, I would say with it's stealth and supercruise, YES, that would make it the best multi role, even though it was supposed to be an air dominance fighter.

you made one plane wooptydo the INFERIOR one i might add.

The inferior one? Says who? Everything I have read, both from US and UK sources says it's the best fighter in the world.

you have not invented the best helicopter.

Last time I checked we were talking about the Raptor, Typhoon and S-37 - none of which are aircraft. But I'll bite. The Apache is the best attack helicopter in the world. The Comanche would have been the best recon helicopter in the world.

so your saying because of some short term problems EVERY typhoon will not have ammo. BTW the ammo we could have its no problem to get more.

It's not a problem untill you need it. And yes, EVERY typhoon will not have amo untill you but it.

think we didnt learn the stuff you did , like not to trust your pilots aim. cough hill 282. cough .Ne Obliviscaris!

Please - our pilots are fine. When you fly thousands of sorties there is going to be friendly fire.

depends i dunno if the F14-18 can stop in midair and fire a stigner while the enemy over shoot ? can it

Nope, they don't use missles that were intended to be shoulder fired. They use REAL A2A missles like AMRAAMs, ASRAAMs, and Sidewinders.

Oh - and by the way - notice that all of your best missles are AMERICAN.

well over any aircraft except the F/A-22 because its stealth and thats not a fair odd, but yeah the Gripen (correct spelling) over any others because of its tech being far advanced than any of the other craft.

You sure don't know your aircraft

The US aircraft would rip a gripen a new A-hole

fine then you take the F/A-22 and i'll take a fully production model F23 and see who wins?

Wait - the Black Widow is AMERICAN!

So the only way you think you can beat a US plane is with another US plane?

I AGREE

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Ahh.. this is too much!!

the americans are full of it...best in this..best in that.. no competition ..blah ..blah... pit unless theres a real war that can't be disproven......but come you guys suck in hand-eye co-od. No denying that..

Counterstrike, starcraft, warcraft...the russians, europeans and the koreans are the best in that!!

Maybe thats because all of our best hand/eye people are playing SPORTS - you may have noticed that the US dominates those as well

The Apache is the best attack helicopter in the world. The Comanche would have been the best recon helicopter in the world.

Actually Mi-28N is the best attack helicopter ... And Comanche well it didn't even arricve at the production stage...
Apache isn't superior even to Mi-24

Originally posted by American Mad Man
Ohhh right - I guess we - the United States of America, home of the greatest military power in the world - are getting all of our electronics outclassed by the UK what ever you say.

no its called taiwan but we do give you your B class armour.

The best fighter plane in the world.

best fighter plane eh , so what about the F23 ? i suppose the fact it was better doesnt matter huh?

Yup - it has the best stealth of any current or projected fighter in the world.

you know i was meaning PLANE! not "fighter"

It's range is fine.

for what job?

Actually it just might be. It surely will be great at strike missions with it's stealth super cruise combo. It will be an anti cruise missle platform. It will be the best EW fighter in the world. It will also do a bit of recon. So, I would say with it's stealth and supercruise, YES, that would make it the best multi role, even though it was supposed to be an air dominance fighter.

best EW oh wow it sends EM waves towards the plane and stops THAT plane talking to any other. now let me see since when did a fighter need to do EW even if it is stupid.
now let me ask you this anti cruise missile platform i dont get how that will work i mean come on how they gona know a cruise is comeing secdonly this EW stuff will be defeated by shielding not that hard to shield something and thirdly do you know how hard it is to hit a missile in mid air?

The inferior one? Says who? Everything I have read, both from US and UK sources says it's the best fighter in the world.

says the report that inforemed the govermant aka polititions about it.

Last time I checked we were talking about the Raptor, Typhoon and S-37 - none of which are aircraft. But I'll bite. The Apache is the best attack helicopter in the world. The Comanche would have been the best recon helicopter in the world.

really ever heard of the KA50?
yes "would" that fatal word huh.

It's not a problem untill you need it. And yes, EVERY typhoon will not have amo untill you but it.

really? are you privy to MOD thoughts or are you just telepathic.

Please - our pilots are fine. When you fly thousands of sorties there is going to be friendly fire.

yes ofcourse even when they display friendly makers all over the hill. ncie cover up job done though, get our gov to deny all knowledge till 2025.
and the fact even AMERICAN troops were angry at thier pilots?

Nope, they don't use missles that were intended to be shoulder fired. They use REAL A2A missles like AMRAAMs, ASRAAMs, and Sidewinders.

really so the sidewinder , even though still used by USAF, is inferior huh. also the harroer can carry weapons like that.

Oh- and by the way - notice that all of your best missles are AMERICAN.

why should we spend money on missiles you will give us because your afraid of comunism.

You sure don't know your aircraft

The US aircraft would rip a gripen a new A-hole

really? so the fact the F/A-22 uses griphon tech in it because they needed to look nice?

Wait - the Black Widow is AMERICAN!

point is caller? where you at the game?
so what it is american everything you own is technically british since you descend from us anyway but thats another discussion. the black widow is a USA plane yet even with your "great" knowledge you pick a dog fighter over an airdominance fighter? explsain the sense?

So the only way you think you can beat a US plane is with another US plane?

I AGREE

yeah because you spen trillions on BORROWED money makes your fighters better but one little fact for ya, at least we build them to save our pilots. but the fact of the matter is even with less moeny we still made the first STOVL plane ?

[edit on 26-10-2004 by devilwasp]

Originally posted by American Mad Man




Maybe thats because all of our best hand/eye people are playing SPORTS - you may have noticed that the US dominates those as well

wouldnt say that at football, hell WE bet you i mean SCOTLAND! come on !