Religious nutjobs spread the blame for Aurora shooting

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by SevenThunders

 

Or, it's a genetic aberration.

Psychopaths have existed in history forever. The God of the OT was a psychopath. Just look at the story of Job. Moses murdered an Egyptian guard, David presented King Saul with 200 foreskins for his daughter. And the list goes on.

Psychopaths persist and survive BECAUSE of their lack of empathy and through survival of the fittest, and are reinforced as role models in our society.

edit on 24-7-2012 by windword because: (no reason given)

Job ended up being blessed even more than before and served as a great example of patient endurance when faced with overwhelming obstacles. The perpetrator of the murders and torture in that case was satan by the way, the same one active in todays world.

David presented the foreskins of Philistines who were devil worshipping child sacrificers and who were systematically killing and oppressing the Hebrews.

Now are these guys just 'genetic aberrations'?

Charles Manson: known devil worshipper and mass murderer
Richard Ramirez: devil worshipper and serial murderer and rapist
Jeffrey Dahmer: satan worshipper, started with ritualistic animal sacrifices and ended badly.
Jared Laughner: Devil worshipper
www.texemarrs.com...

It's a long sordid list of people involved with worshipping fallen angels and mass murder, cannibalism and other atrocities. But no clearly there is no spiritual link, no satan, and no evil. It's all in your head....

Originally posted by SevenThunders

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by SevenThunders

 

Or, it's a genetic aberration.

Psychopaths have existed in history forever. The God of the OT was a psychopath. Just look at the story of Job. Moses murdered an Egyptian guard, David presented King Saul with 200 foreskins for his daughter. And the list goes on.

Psychopaths persist and survive BECAUSE of their lack of empathy and through survival of the fittest, and are reinforced as role models in our society.

edit on 24-7-2012 by windword because: (no reason given)

Job ended up being blessed even more than before and served as a great example of patient endurance when faced with overwhelming obstacles. The perpetrator of the murders and torture in that case was satan by the way, the same one active in todays world.

As I recall, in the story, God is bragging about Job and decides to have a little fun, in a wager with Satan, allowing Satan to bring havoc to Job. God allows his entire family to be killed, so it didn't work out well for them. They were just collateral damage in the bolstering of God's ego. This is the same God that is being worshiped today!

David presented the foreskins of Philistines who were devil worshipping child sacrificers and who were systematically killing and oppressing the Hebrews.

Where is your proof that they were "systematically killing and oppressing the Hebrews?"

Anybody who didn't worship Jehovah was targeted and killed by the Hebrews.

Did the Philistines worship Satan?

Question: In the book of Judges, we read how the Israelites served “Baal and Ashtaroth”, pagan gods of the various nations (Judges 2:11-13), but Dagon, the god of the Philistines, is mentioned by name and often depicted as a “fish-god”. How is Dagon different than the other idols?

Answer: Dagon was originally a Semitic deity, adopted by the Philistines after they invaded Canaan, ca. 1177 BC. We have records of Dagon dating to the 3rd dynasty of Ur in the 25th Century BC. Dagon was very popular among the Amorites, among whom “Dagon” is a component of many personal names, and Assyrians.

Most scholars argue that he was originally a vegetation, grain and wheat, deity. The name is very similar to the Hebrew word for “grain”, dāgān. This would create an interesting irony in the Samson narratives, as Samson was forced to grind wheat for the Philistines (Judges 16). However, some descriptions seem to make Dagon a storm-god, possibly in connection with the need of rain for the wheat and grain harvest. www.biblearchaeology.org...

Then the Christians stole their fish god, to use a symbol of their new god, Jesus Christ! Devil worshipers!

It's a long sordid list of people involved with worshipping fallen angels and mass murder, cannibalism and other atrocities. But no clearly there is no spiritual link, no satan, and no evil. It's all in your head....

It's a long a sordid list of atrocities done in the name of Jehovah, Allah and Jesus!

I choose not to blame aberration on God or Satan, but on either nature or nurture.

EDIT:

I just saw this on the ATS front page. Here is an example of a "natural" psychopath. No Satan worship here, just psychopathy!

Originally posted by windword
Atheism is, always has been and always will be nothing more than a lack of belief in a supreme being. The only thing "new" about atheism is the fact that the church stopped killing atheists for heresy.

edit on 23-7-2012 by windword because: (no reason given)

The "church" killed Atheists for heresy?

When did this happen?

reply to post by Malcher


Were you born yesterday?

Have you never heard of the Spanish Inquisition or the Crusades, the burning of witches and heretics? Scientists who studied the body, astronomers who said the the world wasn't the center of the solar system or flat were killed! Anyone who dare called into question what the church put forth were killed!

Catholics were killing protestants for 150 + years, after Martin Luther. Atheists either lied about their non belief or were killed or ex-communicated, which was just a slow death.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by Malcher

 

Were you born yesterday?

Have you never heard of the Spanish Inquisition or the Crusades, the burning of witches and heretics? Scientists who studied the body, astronomers who said the the world wasn't the center of the solar system or flat were killed! Anyone who dare called into question what the church put forth were killed!

Starting off with an Ad hominem and ending with a paragraph that has nothing to do with your statement.

First let us take "the inquisition and the crusades out of it since they clearly have nothing to do with your non-sourceable statement of "the church killing atheists".

Why dont you pick it up from here:

"the burning of witches and heretics? Scientists who studied the body, astronomers who said the the world wasn't the center of the solar system or flat were killed! Anyone who dare called into question what the church put forth were killed!"

I still dont think any of this has anything at all to do with atheists or atheism. Since you are going back centuries not only do we not know what happened or to what extent but are the sources for these stories reputable? Besides the impact governments had and have persecuting religious people is equal but really surpasses the things you mentioned that probably didnt happen anyway.

reply to post by Malcher


Some things are just taken for granted as factual. The fact that the church went on crusades to eliminate any kind of thinking that went against or challenged the dogma that the church put forth is common knowledge. Denying that is like denying the Holocaust.

If you openly declared to have no belief in god or or Jesus, you WERE an heretic. There's plenty of historic documentation of how the Catholic church handled heretics.

Atheism is on the rise because people are less and less singled out and publicly punished for their lack of belief. Now days their even finding groups that support and encourage their thoughts.

Why Christians think atheism is new or dangerous boggles my mind!

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


It's so funny how they hijack whatever serves to promote their belief, or to demonize those of us who do not accept their version of the fairy tale. Seriously, how many people have died in the name of religion? The evolutionary killers are a tiny drop in the ocean of senseless killings.

I don't know what kind of beliefs are held by the others who accept evolution, but I know what mine are. Things like the Aurora shooting were not caused by a belief in evolution. I think pseudo-joker dude just cracked for some reason. To me, believing in evolution means that you have to believe that our individual evolutionary fitness is all that matters when we die. Holmes just guaranteed that he will die with zero evolutionary fitness points. I spend my days propagating my genes into the future, and working hard to make sure that my progeny have a head start at success. Nothing else matters to me.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by Malcher

 

Some things are just taken for granted as factual. The fact that the church went on crusades to eliminate any kind of thinking that went against or challenged the dogma that the church put forth is common knowledge. Denying that is like denying the Holocaust.

If you openly declared to have no belief in god or or Jesus, you WERE an heretic. There's plenty of historic documentation of how the Catholic church handled heretics.

Atheism is on the rise because people are less and less singled out and publicly punished for their lack of belief. Now days their even finding groups that support and encourage their thoughts.

Why Christians think atheism is new or dangerous boggles my mind!

Obviously you cannot substantiate that statement with anything factual so at what point do we label you a propagandist?

Honestly, i would need to see the documentation because just like you lied in your post there is reason to believe the rest is exaggerated or maybe even never occurred.

I think that centuries ago there was less understanding of mental illness so some people may have suffered...but i really dont know of any.

ETA: I have no problem with Atheism at all and dont follow a specific religion.

reply to post by Malcher



There is way to much documentation of the oppression of free thought by the Church to present all of it to you, but here's a start. More here www.truthbeknown.com...
[Ancient Pagans:

As soon as Christianity was legal (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed.

Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain.

Examples of destroyed Temples: the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea, the Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the Heliopolis.

Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis were famous as "temple destroyer." [DA468]
Pagan services became punishable by death in 356. [DA468]

Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed, because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469]

According to Christian chroniclers he "followed meticulously all Christian teachings..."
In 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights.

In the early fourth century the philosopher Sopatros was executed on demand of Christian authorities. [DA466]

The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415.

Missions:

16th and 17th century Ireland. English troops "pacified and civilized" Ireland, where only Gaelic "wild Irish", "unreasonable beasts lived without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common of their goods, cattle, women, children and every other thing." One of the more successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother of Sir Walter Raleigh, ordered that "the heddes of all those (of what sort soever thei were) which were killed in the daie, should be cutte off from their bodies... and should bee laied on the ground by eche side of the waie", which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused "greate terrour to the people when thei sawe the heddes of their dedde fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolke, and freinds on the grounde".
Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage.

Heretics:

Estimated one million victims (cathar heresy alone), [WW183]
Other heresies: Waldensians, Paulikians, Runcarians, Josephites, and many others. Most of these sects exterminated, (I believe some Waldensians live today, yet they had to endure 600 years of persecution) I estimate at least hundred thousand victims (including the Spanish inquisition but excluding victims in the New World).
Spanish Inquisitor Torquemada alone allegedly responsible for 10,220 burnings. [

Native Populations:

On every island he set foot on, Columbus planted a cross, "making the declarations that are required" - the requerimiento - to claim the ownership for his Catholic patrons in Spain. And "nobody objected." If the Indians refused or delayed their acceptance (or understanding), the requerimiento continued:
I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter in your country and shall make war against you ... and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church ... and shall do you all mischief that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict him."

And, if you think that no "atheists" were victims because they didn't exist, there's plenty of reference in the Bible to "godless" people. I seem to remember someone saying "The fool hath said in his heart "There is no God"......

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul
Apparently it is the result of teaching evolution:

The mega-church pastor of the Saddleback Church, Rick Warren, took to Twitter on Friday to express his thought about the recent shooting at an Aurora, Colorado movie theater. Warren blamed the shooting on the teaching of evolution in public science classes:

“When students are taught they are no different from animals, they act like it.”

and/or because America denies hell:

Tens of millions of young people in this culture seem to have no fear of God. It's becoming too commonplace that some frustrated person will go on a killing spree of random people. If they kill themselves, they think it's all over. But that's like going from the frying pan into the fire. Where's the fear of God in our society? I don't think people would do those sorts of things if they truly understood the reality of Hell.

Why does everybody have to try to find some sort of justification for their own bigotry in the lunatic actions a nut-job with too many guns and a bad attitude???

I don't think that it is being a nut job to opine that lack or morals leads to immoral behavior. If they believe that having Christ or Budda or whomever in a person's life will give someone the comfort they need so that they don't have to act out in a murderous manner, I don't find that a particularily crazy thing to say.

reply to post by adjensen


Even a person who acted like a hero, and saved people, risking their own life, is a evolutionary move.

Because in society, a person who is a hero is held in high esteem by society. High esteem means better food, better shelter, and better mates.

reply to post by adjensen

I don't disagree with that, but, according to Dawkins, where do those values come from?

Evolutionary biology does NOT provide a reasonable basis for values -- I would welcome a refutation of that, but even "The Moral Landscape" doesn't provide a reasonable basis for it. Harris fails to demonstrate that his "is/ought" philosophy has anything but a relativistic perspective, and that's invalid.

Dawkins wrote a whole book of the origin of altruistic values in the biological landscape, called "The Selfish Gene."

The Selfish Gene is a book on evolution by Richard Dawkins, published in 1976. It builds upon the principal theory of George C. Williams's first book Adaptation and Natural Selection. Dawkins coined the term "selfish gene" as a way of expressing the gene-centred view of evolution as opposed to the views focused on the organism and the group. From the gene-centred view follows that the more two individuals are genetically related, the more sense (at the level of the genes) it makes for them to behave selflessly with each other. Therefore the concept is especially good at explaining many forms of altruism, regardless of a common misuse of the term along the lines of a selfishness gene.

It's an excellent read that I highly recommend.

I don't understand why evolution and athiesm have to be forced together all the time. Believing in the scientific method does not mean someone has to eliminate religion. The theory of evolution is constantly evolving as we learn more of the mysteries of existence. I happen to be Buddhist. At first, I started practicing because it was my wifes belief when I married her (and for many generations of her ancestors). Personally, I feel it helps me be a much better person than the Christian philosophy that was beaten into my mind as a child.

Also, to those who keep saying Buddha is a god. Buddhists do not worship anyone or anything. The Buddha himself said that he was not a god and should never be worshiped. However, you may see people bowing to a statue of the Buddha; they are only showing respect to a great teacher.

Buddhism is not a religion. It is a philosophy of living. A way to improve my life and the lives of those who interact with me.

The motivations for why people do things are mufti-faceted. Of course HIS belief set was part his OWN actions. It was a factor. As is, what he was studying, his hobbies, politics, philosophies. Nobody is responsible except him and his own perceptions of the world around him, which are obviously psychotic.

A mental break can happen to anyone. It doesn't matter if you are a "religious nutjob", atheist, spiritualist, or of a different sexual orientation. Anyone can break. We are not infallible and the future is at best uncertain for us all.

This man will either be incarcerated and put in jail for the rest of his life, or die by the death penalty. He will get three square meals a day, get the best of attention from psychiatrists who want to see how he ticks. Will likely even have TV privileges and get to see family. He is going to be fine. Until death, whether that be sooner or later.

I would honestly worry and spend more energy in thought for the victims.

I think that there is a concern with a decline in values. However, I feel consumerism and corporations, drive this. Sex sells. Violence in entertainment sells. The world economy is scary. Educational loans enslave us. Third world squalor still exists for heavens sake.

Until we take down the Corporations (which by law are treated like separate "entities" given value and rights) things are not going to change. They are more important right now, given more though and concern than HUMANS. Scary. We will continue to see more "unusual" psychotic behavior until a lot of these social issues are dealt with in a way that garners hope and change.

That's my prediction.

Cirque

reply to post by CirqueDeTruth


reply to post by CirqueDeTruth


Why do we have to blame the corporations? I understand why they are hated. I strongly agree with all of your dislike for materialism.

I blame the people. That is the real problem. Many of us are so naive to continuously fall into the trap of debt to aquire things we don't need. It's against my beliefs to have things I do not need. I don't want to run the risk of getting stuck here with all the other people who will have to live this life again.

I also place blame on many of the people running the corporations. So many are greedy control freaks seeking to keep people from having control of their own minds and wealth.

We have to change the way people think to make a difference. I think the most important thing people need to learn is not to be tempted with immediate gratification. What is wrong with waiting until the money is saved for our wants, instead of voluntarily enslaving ourselves to debt? It would also help if we learned how to respect each other as individuals, despite our differences.

The government is not broken beyond repair either. The problems is that the same greedy control freaks are finding their way into government to further enslave us. The only way to fix this is to demand direct democracy. Mob rule beats being governed by the most persistent sociopaths.

reply to post by windword


Of course you trot the old (and i mean OLD) stand by who made a whole career writing books about this subject and selling them to people like yourself but there are no credible sources for the simple fact that her own sources are from books written in the 1960's. If you provide credible sources then we could say these things may have happened. What are the sources? The list at the bottom of the page of books written in the 60s...how do they know-

"As soon as Christianity was legal (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed."

I would like to know how someone can know this and why the source should be viewed as accurate. Maybe you are just gullible, but on the other hand you are not even attempting to back up your statement that "the church killed atheists"...remember that? 'cause that is what i was referring to and only that.

Since you ignored my request for sources on that (the link you gave has the word "atheist" one time and it is in the sidebar) but know i am wondering if this is how all this stuff starts, by rumor.

I am referring to the parts in that "article" from the years 3 to 1300, give or take a century or two. As far as we know all that is based off of what you did here because you made a claim, as it stands now a false claim) that the "church killed atheists". All i wanted to know was if you can provide a source for that and obviously you cannot.

Let me clue you into something else: Both Mussolini and Hitler were atheists...well Mussolini certainly was as was his father, these are known facts, but Hitler it is harder to peg because he bounced around from many different beliefs. We do know the Nazi's were into genetics, eugenics, selection etc. Wonder where they got that from?

SOURCE

The article even mentions the Nazi's, and rightfully so because only a blind man could not see that.

The point is, i dont blame scientific knowledge for what what madman or a handful of madmen do. I really think that they felt they were going by the book, whatever book or books they happened to read.

Getting back to the OP, in the larger sense there may be some validity in the larger context but i think this guy from Colorado lost touch with reality. The U.S, like most or all other nations, does not deal with mental illness too well...but then hindsight is 20\20. Still should not omit the fact that the asylums in the U.S were pretty much shut down decades ago, which i think was a mistake.

Originally posted by Malcher
reply to post by windword

 

Let me clue you into something else: Both Mussolini and Hitler were atheists...well Mussolini certainly was as was his father, these are known facts, but Hitler it is harder to peg because he bounced around from many different beliefs. We do know the Nazi's were into genetics, eugenics, selection etc. Wonder where they got that from?

SOURCE

The article even mentions the Nazi's, and rightfully so because only a blind man could not see that.

Godwin's law!

And of course untrue, and while mussolini's father was certainly anti-clerical, his mother was a devout Catholic and took him to church every Sunday - so he was raised as a theist, but got over that limitation. Sadly of course he did not actually follow through that improvement with many others.

The difference is the amount of people that have killed in the name of atheism or the non belief in god. All of the examples given were doing it for power, racism and insanity. It was not in the name of no god. There are countless examples of extremists killing in the name of their god from the dark ages to today. Real history isn't like middle school history class. It's well established fact. Atheists have been persecuted for quite a while.

Today it's all about science denial for the fundies, but they really have no ground to stand on.

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul

Originally posted by Malcher
reply to post by windword

 

Let me clue you into something else: Both Mussolini and Hitler were atheists...well Mussolini certainly was as was his father, these are known facts, but Hitler it is harder to peg because he bounced around from many different beliefs. We do know the Nazi's were into genetics, eugenics, selection etc. Wonder where they got that from?

SOURCE

The article even mentions the Nazi's, and rightfully so because only a blind man could not see that.

Godwin's law!

And of course untrue, and while mussolini's father was certainly anti-clerical, his mother was a devout Catholic and took him to church every Sunday - so he was raised as a theist, but got over that limitation. Sadly of course he did not actually follow through that improvement with many others.

You cite Mussolini and link to Hitlers wiki page? You really cant cite sources after all.

Doesnt matter anyway though because it is a fact. Here is the right page for your charges:

SOURCE

Hitler was a delusional esoteric Blavatskian. Somewhere his wires got crossed, he should have listened to his mother.

Originally posted by acmpnsfal
Reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

 

I wish these butthurt christians fundies would go play in traffic blindfolded. Its funny though that hes blaming this on America becoming increasingly secular when the shooter was a christian.

 

Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

 

I think they are a little off on where the blame should be placed, but they are on the right track. Our society is sliding downhill quickly. We have little regard for life. From school teachings, to video games, to violent movies, to porn sites kids can visit, to parents who are concerned about their own issues and ignore their kids, to illegal drugs, to prescription drugs, etc. Look at your own statement - wishing they would up and die. We have no interest or love in our felow humans these days. I suppose it has a lot to do with the fact that there are just so many people these days and we don't put down roots. Years ago, we knew everyone in the town (or the neighborhood) and we watched our behavior as it was a reflection on the entire family. So, if you weren't afraid God would get you, you were probably afraid grandma would for embarassing her in front of her friends.