Atheist/Christian/Muslim = no problem: fundy = arguments.

I'm in the UK (which isn't exactly the most religious place in the world). Over here we have basically two views - you believe or don't. It doesn't matter. No one cares.

When we have faith based discussions, we essentially agree to disagree.

Elsewhere (where fundies exist) there seems to be an entirely different debate. You hear the 'you'll burn in hell' accusations, followed by 'you have no morals' accusations, followed by "you're satanists" la la la.

Why (and I ask this question honestly) do certain areas of the world feel the need to threaten over ones beliefs? Surely, if ones beliefs where strong enough, this wouldn't happen. Or maybe I'm naive.

reply to post by BagBing


Because their indoctrination has conditioned them to behave in such a way. Plus, by holding on to religious dogma it allows them to criticize other people's beliefs where they see fit.

Religion serves as a nice warm comfort blanket from the unknown. It's been that way since the dawn of our species; however, that's an entirely different topic.

reply to post by BagBing

Would you help me out a bit, I know almost nothing about England, but I have heard that there are parts of London and environs where people have posted signs saying (in effect) "You are entering a Muslim area, no drinking, no smoking, no (a couple of other things). Is that true?

I've also heard that, on occasion, a magistrate will gilve a lenient sentence, or none at all, to a Muslim because their culture is different from the surrounding peoples'. Is that one true?

And again, do the major newspapers identify wrongdoers as "Muslims," or are they just called "Asians?"

If so, it makes me wonder about the idea that nobody cares what another believes and that it's all live and let live. But again, I'm not terribly familiar. So please, straighten me out.

reply to post by BagBing

Originally posted by BagBing
Elsewhere (where fundies exist) there seems to be an entirely different debate. You hear the 'you'll burn in hell' accusations, followed by 'you have no morals' accusations, followed by "you're satanists" la la la.

Why (and I ask this question honestly) do certain areas of the world feel the need to threaten over ones beliefs? Surely, if ones beliefs where strong enough, this wouldn't happen. Or maybe I'm naive.

I don't think you're naive. It just that some people in the US want progression and a movement toward acceptance of others, freedom for all, etc. Then there's the dark, fearful underbelly that has infiltrated our politics and is using every trick in the book to gain a foothold in our political system and use it to CONTROL the rest of us to behave according to their beliefs. They have become very much like the "scary" fundamentalist extremists of the "other" religion - the ones they're so afraid of!

These "fundies" as you call them, don't believe in freedom. They demand THEIR freedoms, but are too stupid to see that their attempt to control others is a direct assault on the freedom that they demand for themselves.

WHY? I can only guess. I'm stumped as to this selfish, fearful behavior. Just as the fanatical extremists that call themselves Muslims, while killing innocent people in "allah's name", these Christian fundamentalists are hell-bent on removing the freedoms and liberties of the people here that disagree with their "religious" beliefs. They're certainly NOT following the Christian religion. I think their motivation is probably similar to the Muslim extremists... Fear.

reply to post by BagBing


I've always been taught that if something doesn't move you to argument or defense that means the person isn't at all passionate about it.

Originally posted by BagBing
I'm in the UK (which isn't exactly the most religious place in the world). Over here we have basically two views - you believe or don't. It doesn't matter. No one cares.

When we have faith based discussions, we essentially agree to disagree.

Elsewhere (where fundies exist) there seems to be an entirely different debate. You hear the 'you'll burn in hell' accusations, followed by 'you have no morals' accusations, followed by "you're satanists" la la la.

Why (and I ask this question honestly) do certain areas of the world feel the need to threaten over ones beliefs? Surely, if ones beliefs where strong enough, this wouldn't happen. Or maybe I'm naive.

Yeah see, but you're having an influx of muslim who do care and many are extremists and you know what extremists do to those who don't care? "Boom" followed by alot of dead people. An atheist to them is no different than a christian or a jew, all are infidel to them. Moderates don't want to kill us all right now, theyre waiting on the Mahdi to show up to start the party. Depending on what part of the world you come from it does have a significant impact on how you think.

reply to post by BagBing


The bible, and more specifically Preachers of said faith cause this issue...

If one reads the OT you can clearly see why those people condem others, call them names etc etc...

The issue is, their belief is based around one man... and they don't read what he said... they listen to what others said about him.

Condem not and you will not be condemed... Judge not and you will not be judged...

Christians seem to over look all the good stuff, especially this verse

Originally posted by BagBing
I'm in the UK (which isn't exactly the most religious place in the world).

Aren't 1/3 of your schools religious schools with no regulation on what they teach in the religion classes?

reply to post by charles1952

If you don't mind me answering for BagBing, both these incidences you speak of are Daily Mail scaremongering. In case you don't know, the Daily Mail is a tabloid news-rag that capitalises on scare-mongering and scandals to sell (and is consequently constantly being sued for libel).

At one point in 2011, Anjem Choudary (a loony lawyer turned extremist who isn't really good at either of those jobs) started a campaign where he printed something like 10,000 little stickers with what you say "You are entering a shariah zone", etc. to have them placed in different parts of London and other Boroughs throughout the UK.
I believe there was one incident where one of his followers verbally abused some passers-by, and the stickers were removed by the police shortly after.
So there never was, nor is there an actual "Shariah controlled zone", where any number of muslims have any authority or even capability to enforce any sort laws.

I'm not exactly sure if this is the incident you are referring to, but there was a story a couple months back about some Somali girls who were in court for beating up some white girl and calling her a "slag", and supposedly (according the the Daily Mail), they were acquited because they were muslim, and not used to being drunk or something.
What the Daily Mail forgot to mention was that it was the defendant's lawyer who brought up the issue of faith and how they might not be used to alcohol, not the judge. The judge's decision was based off the fact that it was the white girl's boyfriend who had attacked one of the somali girls, another somali girl got inbetween, and then they were beating up the other girl. Long and complicated, and nothing to do with religion.

I'm sorry for condensing your very general two statements into 2 very specific incidents, but that is how it is. There is no general trend. Just specific incidents that are exploited to breed this feeling of anger and division within the community.

But yeah, while there is a lot less religious polarisation in the UK as compared to the US, I'd say there is a lot more than in the rest of Europe.

reply to post by babloyi

Dear babloyi,

You are a treasure, you always amaze me, thank you.

Now that you describe them, I remember that I was thinking of exactly what you are describing.

And further thanks for setting me straight. There is a ton I don't know, but now it is a little less.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by BagBing


Your nation will be a fundamentalist nation within 50 years. Which fundamentalist religion will you choose? When you were a fundamentalist christian nation, God prospered you as you spread the gospel throughout the world. Now you are a lost morally degenerate nation, losing respect, and about to become another Muslim third world terrorist nation.

The latter appears to be by a conscious choice of your ruling elite. Atheists don't reproduce and they have little to draw them to their beliefs. What's your guiding principle? We are a fluke and an accident, might as well party until we drop dead? That won't hold families together, sorry. All nations will trend towards one form of fundamentalism or another, if not by sheer demographics alone.

reply to post by BagBing


This is why multiculturalism is intentionally forced upon us. To sew the seeds of discord over our differences and keeping people from focusing on real problems to better their families and communities.

Governments seem to import people as much as products in a scheme to flood the market so to speak. The host country is then forced to slowly chip away at their sovereignty and national identity/culture in order to be more multicultural. This causes the people to be forced to live in a homogenized society that no one really wants except the rulers because the end result is erosion of freedom and individuality not to mention the other effects of the divide and conquer stratagem.

It is quite ingenious if not down right diabolical. Makes me wonder if we will see a shift towards ultra nationalism as a backlash to forced globalism which will be the beginnings of isolationist policies and movements to rid undesirables. History repeats itself. Eventually you end up with world war 3 and once the people are tired of the war they will beg for a world govt.

Seems each world war has followed this pattern and each time failed attempts at global govt are made (league of nations/U.N.)

They play on our fears and sympathies. The majority of us want to live lives of peace and harmony with people we share some sort of familial or cultural connection too while at the same time we do not wish to condemn others for wanting the same. What we end up with is political correctness as a form of soft censorship. Take the commander in chief for instance hard to criticize the man when you are called a racist regardless of his policies lack of effectiveness.

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by BagBing

 

Would you help me out a bit, I know almost nothing about England, but I have heard that there are parts of London and environs where people have posted signs saying (in effect) "You are entering a Muslim area, no drinking, no smoking, no (a couple of other things). Is that true?

No, not even close!

I've also heard that, on occasion, a magistrate will gilve a lenient sentence, or none at all, to a Muslim because their culture is different from the surrounding peoples'. Is that one true?
[/quote]
erm... not even close! lol

And again, do the major newspapers identify wrongdoers as "Muslims," or are they just called "Asians?"[/neither]
You're point being?

If so, it makes me wonder about the idea that nobody cares what another believes and that it's all live and let live. But again, I'm not terribly familiar. So please, straighten me out.

Honestly... the Uk is pretty cool about black v white integration. Do you have a problem with thart?

edit on 9-8-2012 by BagBing because: (no reason given)

Originally posted by NihilistSanta
reply to post by BagBing

 

This is why multiculturalism is intentionally forced upon us. To sew the seeds of discord over our differences and keeping people from focusing on real problems to better their families and communities.

Governments seem to import people as much as products in a scheme to flood the market so to speak. The host country is then forced to slowly chip away at their sovereignty and national identity/culture in order to be more multicultural. This causes the people to be forced to live in a homogenized society that no one really wants except the rulers because the end result is erosion of freedom and individuality not to mention the other effects of the divide and conquer stratagem.

It is quite ingenious if not down right diabolical. Makes me wonder if we will see a shift towards ultra nationalism as a backlash to forced globalism which will be the beginnings of isolationist policies and movements to rid undesirables. History repeats itself. Eventually you end up with world war 3 and once the people are tired of the war they will beg for a world govt.

Seems each world war has followed this pattern and each time failed attempts at global govt are made (league of nations/U.N.)

They play on our fears and sympathies. The majority of us want to live lives of peace and harmony with people we share some sort of familial or cultural connection too while at the same time we do not wish to condemn others for wanting the same. What we end up with is political correctness as a form of soft censorship. Take the commander in chief for instance hard to criticize the man when you are called a racist regardless of his policies lack of effectiveness.

It's nice too see racists still exist...

Originally posted by IEtherianSoul9
reply to post by BagBing

 

Because their indoctrination has conditioned them to behave in such a way. Plus, by holding on to religious dogma it allows them to criticize other people's beliefs where they see fit.

Religion serves as a nice warm comfort blanket from the unknown. It's been that way since the dawn of our species; however, that's an entirely different topic.

edit on 7/22/2012 by IEtherianSoul9 because: (no reason given)

By stating this... are you not guilty of the same thing yourself? Guilty of having your own personal, borderline religious, indoctrination conditioning you to criticize other people's beliefs where you see fit.

By me stating the above, I am also guilty of criticizing your beliefs about the beliefs of others.

See where this circle of insanity leads us? Nowhere.

I think this is why Jesus Christ said no one is righteous. This is why a lot of true believers are quiet when subjects like these occur and agree to disagree, not argue over the details, and focus on loving, having faith and hope, just as the OP mentioned, and are right to do so.

reply to post by BagBing


Not really to threaten one's belief...I believe that it is compassion which makes one want to help others to find spiritual enlightenment, so that we all will be able to come home. Is there anybody here who didn't descend from Adam and Eve? We are all brothers and sisters and we should be helping one another find the light, instead of fighting each other we should unite to fight our common enemy, which is Satan.


7:164 And when a community among them said: Why preach ye to a folk whom Allah is about to destroy and punish with an awful doom, they said: in order to be free from guilt before your Lord, and that haply they may ward off evil.

There's a big difference between mainstream Christianity vs true followers of Jesus.

I give you a scenario. Let's say everyone who professes to be Christian to have a sudden change of heart overnight and begin to follow the teachings of Jesus in its literal context...

...All the government establishments, all authority, and even the economy will collapse overnight. Billions of these believers will be martyred by those in power desperately clinging to their position of authority.

The world will be turned upside down and will deal a huge blow to the existing system.

Loving God is not a religion, it's a non-violent resistance without regards for own life against the corrupt and unjust world system.

You see non or very little of these happen is because Christianity is not really following Jesus. It wants both of this world and God, never gonna happen!

reply to post by ahnggk


Let me shoot a different scenario to you...

What if a believer is rich? He/she didn't seek to earn extra finances, but it was just given to them; it was a blessing. And in return, the financially blessed help the poor in love and humility.

Would that person(s) not be deemed a true believer, because they are blessed financially? Remember... Everyone has their own callings of God, one reason why Paul stressed being a virgin and not being married but couldn't say it was a decree by Father because every member of the body of Christ has their own callings, just as every body parts has specific functions to make it work.

Originally posted by DelayedChristmas
reply to post by ahnggk

 

Let me shoot a different scenario to you...

What if a believer is rich? He/she didn't seek to earn extra finances, but it was just given to them; it was a blessing. And in return, the financially blessed help the poor in love and humility.

Would that person(s) not be deemed a true believer, because they are blessed financially? Remember... Everyone has their own callings of God, one reason why Paul stressed being a virgin and not being married but couldn't say it was a decree by Father because every member of the body of Christ has their own callings, just as every body parts has specific functions to make it work.

edit on 10-8-2012 by DelayedChristmas because: (no reason given)

edit on 10-8-2012 by DelayedChristmas because: (no reason given)

Paul stressed being a virgin..yet another one of his inventions, aside from making Jesus God and son of God and totally leading people away from the true teachings of Jesus.

57:27 Then We caused Our messengers to follow in their footsteps; and We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow, and gave him the Gospel, and placed compassion and mercy in the hearts of those who followed him. But monasticism they invented. We ordained it not for them. Only seeking Allah's pleasure, and they observed it not with right observance. So We give those of them who believe their reward, but many of them are evil-livers.

reply to post by ahnggk


I give you a scenario. Let's say everyone who professes to be Christian to have a sudden change of heart overnight and begin to follow the teachings of Jesus in its literal context...

Then all the Christians who profess to be followers of Jesus will become Muslims..!


61:6 And when Jesus son of Mary said: O Children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a messenger who cometh after me, whose name is Muhammad (the Praised One). Yet when he hath come unto them with clear proofs, they say: This is mere magic.

Jesus in his true Gospel asked God to bring his followers to the congregation of the Prophet Muhammad when he comes. God heard his prayers and a steady stream of Christians are becoming Muslims everyday. Praise be to Allah!

Here are some of their stories, maybe you will even identify with some of them..


muslimconverts.com...
www.islamtomorrow.com...



*****
You seem to have a good heart, and a thirst to find Truth. Surely one who seeks will eventually find what he is seeking for.

I say to you that your heart is grieved over the poor people as you see them now, but their rest is near.

Blessed are the poor for theirs is the Kingdom of God, they will eat in God's table and angels will minister to them.

But the rich people who didn't give charity to the poor, who hoard their wealth, their wealth will be heated up in Hell and branded to their bodies.

3:180 And let not those who hoard up that which Allah hath bestowed upon them of His bounty think that it is better for them. Nay, it is worse for them. That which they hoard will be their collar on the Day of Resurrection. Allah's is the heritage of the heavens and the earth, and Allah is Informed of what ye do.

Almsgiving is enjoined whether a person is rich or not. A dollar from a poor man is worth more than 100 in the sight of God.


2:271 If ye publish your almsgiving, it is well, but if ye hide it and give it to the poor, it will be better for you, and will atone for some of your ill deeds. Allah is Informed of what ye do.

2:276 Allah hath blighted usury and made almsgiving fruitful. Allah loveth not the impious and guilty.

2:280 And if the debtor is in straitened circumstances, then (let there be) postponement to (the time of) ease; and that ye remit the debt as almsgiving would be better for you if ye did but know.

19:31 And hath made me (Jesus) blessed wheresoever I may be, and hath enjoined upon me prayer and almsgiving so long as I remain alive,

19:55 He (Jesus) enjoined upon his people worship and almsgiving, and was acceptable in the sight of his Lord.

Who should we give alms to? God does not need money, so why do you give it to the church? Are you sure that they give it to the people who needs help or do they hoard it? Woe to them if they do!

9:60 The alms are only for the poor and the needy, and those who collect them, and those whose hearts are to be reconciled, and to free the captives and the debtors, and for the cause of Allah, and (for) the wayfarers; a duty imposed by Allah. Allah is knower, Wise.

33:35Lo! men who surrender unto Allah, and women who surrender, and men who believe and women who believe, and men who obey and women who obey, and men who speak the truth and women who speak the truth, and men who persevere (in righteousness) and women who persevere, and men who are humble and women who are humble, and men who give alms and women who give alms, and men who fast and women who fast, and men who guard their modesty and women who guard (their modesty), and men who remember Allah much and women who remember--Allah hath prepared for them forgiveness and a vast reward.