Off-duty cop shoots, kills son after mistaking him for intruder

Originally posted by VforVendettea
How did the son get into the motel room without a key? Don't 99% of motel doors lock automatically behind you?

Something doesn't add up here. Just a feelling taht there may be more behind this story

I got that feeling straight off as well.. there is more to this story, but not saying he did this on purpose.

there is much more to this story , for sure.

Originally posted by habitforming
reply to post by Cosmic911

 

No...just no.
Nothing I wrote was about gun control. If you have an agenda, stand up on your own posts and write what you want. Do not use me as an excuse.
More guns in this situation would not have done any of that.
It would not have created laws.
It also would not have helped.

You seem to have placed yourself outside everyone's else's sphere of opinion on this subject, and now it appears you have done the same with me. I was agreeing with you actually. I'm not sure what "agenda" you're referring to or what "excuse" you're talking about. You sound a little paranoid. I don't think you completely understood my rebuttal, which is cool, no problem. I have plenty of posts and threads and (ATS points) that I don't need to stand up with excuses or agendas or whatever it is you're ranting about. I found your rebuttal so circumferentially senseless that now I don't even understand what the point of this post is! Congratulations. That is a new one for me.

Hard not to see the irony in this after all of the cops that shoot the loved ones of others unnecessarily.

It is sad that it has to come to this point before people realise they are trigger happy. Shoot first ask questions later should never be anyone's answer, if it is, they shouldn't have a firearm that's for sure.

Originally posted by SpittinTruth
Again, someone please explain to me, why we need automatic weapons?

I need automatic weapons top keep people like you from taking my automatic weapons.

While we're on the subject of "automatic" weapons, do you know of anywhere I could find some?

There is no use for a gun, and if you're "off duty"....why doesn't your pistol remain at the station??? You're not "working" so...why do you need a WEAPON? Matter of fact, why does ANYONE need a firearm??? Let's have a world war, with fists and feet. Fight til the death.

What do they arm police with where you are from? Pointy sticks and bad attitude?

He has some history

I can't pull the quotes, but interesting information about the father

Link

More info here and sorry I'm having trouble trying to quote the parts I want to point out and in the link above please read about Denise Hawkins who he shot too easily

This says the son and father arrived at the motel together.
Nothing on if they shared a room
Link


Also the father was hospitalized for " medical issues" doesn't say for reasons of trauma or other reasons why.

hahah awesome!

Wow... this really highlights the 'Shoot first, ask questions later' mentality of some cops. It wouldn't have taken much for him to at least call out 'Who's there?' before shooting.

Folks, I've read through four pages of this thread and I'm baffled that none (OK two posts above) have asked the usual ATS questions on the actual circumstances.

The way the answers have read, as far I as I can judge is that "a father somehow shot his son believing him to be an intruder at a motel."

For this to have happened it means the son must have entered the father's motel room in a manner that made the father believe him to be an intruder.

Now as far as I've established, from reading all reports so far, the farther is 59 years old, the son is 37. How many 37 yr old sons barge into their father's motel room knowing their father is probably armed and would react that way? I mean did the son not even say his name as he was "barging in" or knocking hard on the door??

I really need to learn much mor from the case before I make any opinion. right now I'm simply bafflled.

Oh wow, how tragic. The more I've read and followed links for more by others posting, the more the details show how tragic this was. Violet posted the links a few above my post here so I'd refer people there for sourcing the the more extensive stories, but they indicate this was a law enforcement family. The Father's brother is a cop and both are kids of a chief.

The truly tragic part...I can possibly see how this happened and wow...the Father must be ruined. First, it's important to note this guy was in a Officer shooting in 1975 when he was a rookie where it says he shot and killed an 18 year old armed with a knife. That may or may not be relevant. I watched my father's PTSD for many years and most came from working a decade and a half as a cop in a very bad city. It makes me wonder about how much that played here.

How it may have happened though? Heck, if they got the room together and the father was closer to the door..which as a cop, he would be unless they fought over it. (cops and their little quirks...you can spot them off-duty in public, it's so obvious when someone is used to it). All the kid had to do was leave when the Father was dozed off and totally aware. Then.... God,.... When the kid comes back, Father "KNOWS" he kid is in the bed behind him and they are in a strange town...so whatever this is coming through the door MUST be a threat. Bam.

I think it might have been just that simple....and all it takes for the guy to have pretty much lost everything right there when his son dropped. So very sad, to me anyway.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Plausible.

I just don't understand why he wouldn't say the son's name first.

"Matthew?"
"Yeah Dad?"
*puts gun down* "What are you doing up?"

But instead, he assumes someone entering or walking around the hotel room is "an intruder" and just unloads?

I'm wondering what they were traveling with, or who they interacted with that day that put the father in such a paranoid state.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

so whatever this is coming through the door MUST be a threat. Bam.

I think it might have been just that simple....

Hey Rabbit, I've said it before, but I can't say it enough. There is just NO WAY that mistake should ever be made with a gun. We just don't shoot "whatever." NO WAY! If that was the case, we gun owners would be shooting their dogs and kids all the time. It is unacceptable. I even relayed a couple of personal stories above where people much less experienced than a cop were able to use a gun effectively and NOT shoot an innocent person.

I know it sounds like a simple mistake, but pulling the trigger on a gun should NEVER be a simple decision, and it should only come with 1000% certainty that it is the right thing to do against the right target.

I'm not saying the Dad should go to prison, but he shouldn't be allowed to carry a gun at work, or at home. He has VERY POOR decision making skills and VERY POOR gun safety.

This previous post is worth repeating. There really is no such thing as a gun "accident." Maybe in a very slim circumstance, a ricochet could be considered an accident, but everything else is pure negligence and lack of proper gun handling. NO SUCH THING AS AN ACCIDENT!! If you wield a gun, you do it with full responsibility for the consequences. I carry mine every day, and I'm not even a cop, and I know better than to shoot at "whatever" is in the dark. Hell, I would have killed my dresser, TV, dog, 5 year old, vacuum sweeper, and 1000 shadows on the wall if I shot every unexplained thing that surprised me in the night.

reply to post by getreadyalready

On this, you are preaching to the choir. I feel for the Father here and it breaks my heart to think he has to live with shooting his own son. I can't begin to imagine.....but his son died of stupidity of the father, as you might say right? I can understand it without finding any excuse.

Much like that DEA agent in Detroit who cleared the chamber of his glock in a classroom gun safety class then shot himself right down the leg. Yeah, a trained agent and all...in a gun safety class. He cleared the chamber by working the slide...then dropped the magazine, and declared it safe. Errrr...kinda forgot the order of things eh?

I'll agree that outside very rare circumstances, accidents don't happen. Stupid happens, a lack of training happens and piss poor judgement happens, but okay, fair enough, true accidents are exceptionally rare when you look at it that way.

Sad indeed. Trigger happy cop or not this man has just experienced the ultimate dread and pain of regret. Hopefully he'll lay down his badge and gun, I wouldn't want someone like that on any police force as he must be grieving. Might want to get a psyche evaluation too, who knows how much this would rattle someones mind. Killing your own son.... pity.

Double post

www.13wham.com...

"...he thought he was an intruder and shot him once in the back"

In 1975, as an officer with RPD, Leach shot and killed a Rochester woman.
Denise Hawkins, 18, was reportedly running away from her abusive boyfriend carrying a knife when officers arrived.

Leach was cleared of any wrongdoing, and later promoted to captain.

In the back?? It sounds as though the son wasn't even re-entering the motel room. He may have just gotten up to go use the can.

I am losing sympathy for this man with the more I read.

Originally posted by Erongaricuaro
www.13wham.com...

"...he thought he was an intruder and shot him once in the back"

In 1975, as an officer with RPD, Leach shot and killed a Rochester woman.
Denise Hawkins, 18, was reportedly running away from her abusive boyfriend carrying a knife when officers arrived.

Leach was cleared of any wrongdoing, and later promoted to captain.

In the back?? It sounds as though the son wasn't even re-entering the motel room. He may have just gotten up to go use the can.

I am losing sympathy for this man with the more I read.

edit on 23-7-2012 by Erongaricuaro because: (no reason given)

hmmm.something smells fishy.

Like another member stated, there is a lot more to this story, and I'm not sure if the actual details will all come out.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


HaHa, I didn't know about the DEA agent mishap, but at least that one is comical. I've actually seen people do that, and it took my breath away! Clear the chamber by operating the slide, and then drop the magazine, and DOH! Luckily nobody got shot on the one I saw. I also have to admit to accidentally firing a friends .357 revolver. I have never seen a trigger so touchy in my life. I swear I didn't touch it. He pulled the hammer back, and THEN handed it to me, which was VERY STUPID, but I pointed it down range, and started to lift my arm to fire, and the gun went off before my arm was even halfway raised. Scared the living shyte out of me! I swear my finger wasn't even on the trigger. Good gun safety though, a loaded gun is always pointed at the ground, or down range. Good thing it was!

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

HaHa, I didn't know about the DEA agent mishap... - ...and DOH! Luckily nobody got shot on the one I saw. I also have to admit to accidentally firing a friends .357 revolver. I swear I didn't touch it. I swear my finger wasn't even on the trigger. Good gun safety though, a loaded gun is always pointed at the ground, or down range.

I have had occasion to carry a handgun while in college and working security part-time. There was even once where I thought I might have to use it but the bad guys were more interested in making a hasty retreat and didn't care to mess with me, thank goodness. I have owned a 12ga. pump shotgun and a semi-automatic .22 rifle but never a handgun of my own. Never had a bad or close incident of my own but at least a couple times I've witnessed a couple of "oopsies" courtesy of some enthusiast friends. Any accidental discharges of my own had more to do with dating.

I am not opposed to firearms but they do tend to make me a bit uncomfortable when friends want to show them to me. It is difficult to tell them I really am not at all interested, as they just don't know how someone could not be. I guess I am glad to know I have friends that are well-armed and well-protected. I am content to know they have their guns handy and within easy reach just in case, only I hate being the reason for them to go pulling them out for show-and-tell or for whatever other reason.

I have no anti-gun agenda but I know of enough tragedies involving them that I certainly have mixed feelings. I do not give a straight answer to anyone that asks about the status of my current gun ownership, I generally refuse to discuss it with anyone. I do add that I would hate to be the unfortunate person that had cause to find out for certain.

reply to post by Erongaricuaro

I am not opposed to firearms but they do tend to make me a bit uncomfortable when friends want to show them to me. It is difficult to tell them I really am not at all interested, as they just don't know how someone could not be. I guess I am glad to know I have friends that are well-armed and well-protected. I am content to know they have their guns handy and within easy reach just in case, only I hate being the reason for them to go pulling them out for show-and-tell or for whatever other reason.

ME TOO!

I hate it when people want to bring out a gun and show it to me, because I don't know there level of experience and I don't know how well they will handle the gun. Just last week a friend of mine brought his 44 magnum revolver into my vehicle, and he laid it across his lap while he was getting situated, and the damn thing was pointing right at me. I had my .380 in its holster, but it wasn't pointing at anyone, and nobody could have seen it.

Having people bring out a gun to show to me is extremely stressful.

If I ever do go to show one of my guns to someone, the first thing I do is point it away from everyone, drop the magazine, and clear the chamber 2 or 3 times leaving the slide locked back, and then I keep all the rounds and the magazine and hand them the cleared gun.

Another extremely aggravating thing for me is when someone hands me a loaded gun. I don't want that, and I don't like the fact that they will just hand it to me.

Unless we're at the range of course. I love the opportunity to shoot other models of guns, but not in their living room!