Christians, can you really call yourselves, a Christian?

reply to post by jhill76

I just hope that all do it in a way that embraces love, this way it won't turn so many off from what they do actually have to say.

Its not for us to make the seed grow, we are just there to plant it.

Even if its planted from heated debate, its still planted, Its not my eloquence that brings someone to Christ, that's not my job, its his.

Its my job to be willing to get in that conversation, and here on the Forums, its often hostile to start with.

Its a Christians job to heed the call, and follow it where ever it leads, even if it makes you enemies and unpopular.

If your life is smooth sailing as a Christian, you ain't doing it right.

Originally posted by benrl
reply to post by jhill76

 

I just hope that all do it in a way that embraces love, this way it won't turn so many off from what they do actually have to say.

Its not for us to make the seed grow, we are just there to plant it.

Even if its planted from heated debate, its still planted, Its not my eloquence that brings someone to Christ, that's not my job, its his.

Its my job to be willing to get in that conversation, and here on the Forums, its often hostile to start with.

Its a Christians job to heed the call, and follow it where ever it leads, even if it makes you enemies and unpopular.

If your life is smooth sailing as a Christian, you ain't doing it right.

I see your point, I am talking about the ones who have serious questions, and have different beliefs can get attacked for just having a different belief. But, when it's like you say, I can see why you say that.

reply to post by matthewgraybeal

It doesn't help our case, that It's hip & trendy to be a strict materialist. Money, Bitches, Power. just saying.

I left a church, because they have this Ministry called Black Sheep.

Its a biker ministry that was started in this area, in order to "join" this ministry you can only have Harley Davidson.

I understand that's a thing in biker culture.

I left after my questioning of how "christ" like it was to Spend 15k on a "toy", 15k can feed a family for a year...

Like I said, American Christians should be ashamed.

reply to post by jhill76

I see your point, I am talking about the ones who have serious questions, and have different beliefs can get attacked for just having a different belief.

Your right, but honestly, On ats, that's how it is. People have serious questions they get hit with the Anti-christian, anti-theist attitude right away.

Its rather arrogant though to assume your going to "change" anyone views over a forum, and if any "change" happens it wasn't you that did it.

As a christian, I believe that job falls on the holy spirit, not me.

reply to post by benrl

Its rather arrogant though to assume your going to "change" anyone views over a forum, and if any "change" happens it wasn't you that did it.

This is true. I wonder do the debates on here actually changes anyone's mind?

reply to post by jhill76

This is true. I wonder do the debates on here actually changes anyone's mind?

When it comes to Religion, Politics, UFO's, No.

Ats is a gathering place of extremest, thats why the debates are always so intense.

People with extreme ideas are passionate about those ideas.

But its interesting to watch, and I am sure people learn things all the time, may not change their minds but more knowledge is a good thing.

Even if its simply getting an idea of how the other side thinks.

reply to post by benrl

Even if its simply getting an idea of how the other side thinks.

This is why my posts are formed the way they are, to see how people think.

reply to post by matthewgraybeal

A real Christian honors the Message of Christ by living through examples set by Jesus himself. A fake Christian lives like a Pharisee, on their high horse looking down at others scornfully with their "Superior attitude." That's the difference.

I agree.

reply to post by matthewgraybeal

However, It so rarely sinks in, the bible lessons are difficult for children to sit through, and that rubs off on them as they grow, and become adults. So we get a lot of ex-Christians, simply because they would rather not be bored.

"simply because they would rather not be bored""?!!!
The Bible lessons are difficult for children to sit through because they're not idiots!

...and the stories haven't a shred of realistic grounding!!

It "rubs off on them as" rubbish, and you left out the part about having to tell this mysterious, invisible "Father" of "Ours" that you know you screwed up aaaagain, by doing what you weren't supposed to, and also by not doing what you were supposed to do, and you're not so worthy as to gather the crumbs from under this conniving, impossible "Dad" who won't tell you the rules, but punishes you anyway!!!!!!



Sorry, guys, my frustration and pain are showing.....I'll be better very soon!

reply to post by jhill76


Jesus also said to not judge on appearances but make righteous judgments. We aren't to condemn people however we are to judge fruit. Also to point out that one cannot use discernment without making a judgment.

reply to post by wildtimes


No worries Wildtimes, I cannot understand your unique experiences. If something failed to come across to you about rules, may I offer it was the preachers fault not your own. There really is only one rule, however we are imperfect creatures, but we can live as Jesus had intended, with the golden rule..."Love."

It was not the knee-jerk reaction many might feel they have to live up to, this "Love" (as in give to the homeless out a sense of Obligation if you pass them), but a willingness to step out of a comfort zone and live in a pro-active loving manner...(as in go find a homeless person, and give them a dollar)

If you feel as if every moment is under a scrutinous microscope, I insist someone taught you fear is the rule, not love. Fear was a control mechanism early churches used in conjunction, with ignorance of the word. If you cannot understand the words of the sermon, obedience could be guaranteed with guilt & fear as an add on by your particular, and I might add foolish Church.

Fire & Brimstone Preachers are dangerous fools, who cannot express the love Jesus showed to the world. They scare and bully you into your Faith, which was an Old Testament method, a Method Jesus eliminated by his fulfillment of the prophesies that a Messiah would come, with the Word of God. But he's been gone now from this Earth, and history has been allowed to repeat itself, even though he sacrificed himself to be the buffer between The "Scary God" of the old Jewish Testament, and The Faithful who required a Human Divinely born to help us find our way back to God with a new Covenant.

Does this help?

like there isn't ..

999 threads on this subject already ..

and why isn't this in the RANT forums ??

Originally posted by Komodo
like there isn't ..

999 threads on this subject already ..

and why isn't this in the RANT forums ??

Because, this comes from me, and not others.

reply to post by matthewgraybeal

Does this help?

Yep.
In the sense that it helps me explain where you are coming from.

I agree with you entirely.

Please note that I did not come up in a "Fire&Brimstone" sect, though, I was brought up Episcopalian. And it was my own assessment of the things I was expected to repeat in somber, humble tones, on my knees, with my head bowed and my hands clasped in prayer...contrite admission, in unison with the entire congregation....that we had "transgressed and were not so worthy so much as to pick up the crumbs," recited from memory every single Sunday....
I was a little girl, a good little girl, too....but every Sunday I had to repeat this same thing, over and over and over....

strangely, not much else really impacted me. All the miracles and fables and stories and the resurrection -- never bought into it. But that message, that I wasn't worthy so much as to pick up crumbs REALLY poked at me (and it was sharp).

Lots of people can't understand how I got that message, though They're all surprised like "really? nono, the message is love." Yeah, well, I wasn't praying "Thanks for loving me", I was praying "I didn't do what I was supposed to do, and I did what I wasn't supposed to do, and I am unworthy" ('miserable sinners', all of us).

How can adults expect sensitive, intelligent children to respond to this? My mom (who also has since left the church) was shocked to hear that's what I "took away" from church. She saw it as loving benevolence "despite" human imperfection. And that's fine for an adult, or an older kid who is prepared for it. But a sensitive 4-5 year old girl isn't an adult or an older kid.

This is why I think it's wrong to indoctrinate little kids. Let them look into faith and spirituality when it occurs to them to do so, and let them choose which tradition they can relate to. Informed consent. Not forced confessions of unknown crimes. "You've screwed up again!, still!, but I'm not going to tell you what you did or didn't do wrong, only that you screwed up and you should starve". What the hell kind of "feedback" or "constructive criticism" or "review" is that???

Hope that makes sense.

Come to think of it, that's probably why I later in life became furious on the only TWO occasions that I got "written up" at work (both times instigated by vindictive "mean girl" coworkers with hidden agendas)

AND that's probably a major source of my problem with church-going or pious newly born-again faithful...that they're still trying to feed me that crap, and that they actually think it's a message of kindness and love. No. It's a condemnation of others that you have no right to impose. Look to your own house. Mine is in order.

reply to post by matthewgraybeal

There really is only one rule, however we are imperfect creatures, but we can live as Jesus had intended, with the golden rule..."Love."

That's what I keep telling people.
THE ONLY RULE IS THE GOLDEN RULE, THAT IS ALL WE NEED. And I do live as close to what Jesus intended as possible. I just don't need any "human" telling me about what it is or isn't. Because I know.
It's so simple!

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by matthewgraybeal

 

There really is only one rule, however we are imperfect creatures, but we can live as Jesus had intended, with the golden rule..."Love."

That's what I keep telling people.
THE ONLY RULE IS THE GOLDEN RULE, THAT IS ALL WE NEED. And I do live as close to what Jesus intended as possible. I just don't need any "human" telling me about what it is or isn't. Because I know.
It's so simple!

I agree.

reply to post by jhill76

I agree.

Thank you. You confuse me, but that's your style, and so... okay.
Would you care to respond to the post above that one, and my experience in church as a little girl? I'd like to hear your wise reflection on that.

reply to post by wildtimes

You confuse me, but that's your style, and so... okay.

I restrict myself, because if I gave more, I would give too much.

Please note that I did not come up in a "Fire&Brimstone" sect, though, I was brought up Episcopalian. And it was my own assessment of the things I was expected to repeat in somber, humble tones, on my knees, with my head bowed and my hands clasped in prayer...contrite admission, in unison with the entire congregation....that we had "transgressed and were not so worthy so much as to pick up the crumbs," recited from memory every single Sunday.... I was a little girl, a good little girl, too....but every Sunday I had to repeat this same thing, over and over and over....

Man feels he is doing good, by his own right, to get others to the understanding of what they have taken in. If this means being redundant to get you to adhere to what he feels is right, he has validated this to himself and by self. All he has is the scripture to go off of, going off what he feels is the best method to teach you. He lacks the will to go to the source and speak and get guidance on the best way, only his own way.

And that's fine for an adult, or an older kid who is prepared for it. But a sensitive 4-5 year old girl isn't an adult or an older kid.

This is why, teachings should be separated, and brought to the understanding of the minds of the receivers.

AND that's probably a major source of my problem with church-going or pious newly born-again faithful...that they're still trying to feed me that crap, and that they actually think it's a message of kindness and love. No. It's a condemnation of others that you have no right to impose. Look to your own house. Mine is in order.

They only have a small measure of what is. Church is just the fundamentals of what is, even still there are many flaws. They have not moved past the measure that has been instilled in them from others that have come before.

reply to post by jhill76


Preach it brother.

Seriously, that was a good opening post for the religious forum.

To share, I think one of the hardest things for me to bear are the Hip new trends to Jesus Bash. Not pertaining to anything touched on in this thread, but it brakes my heart how socially progressive it appears to be to disregard the message of Jesus by his own actions and words. Half informed people line up, to pick a phrase they find on-line and with their best attempts misrepresent the context, and the meaning, and then say "See? God doesn't exist."

On those same occasions they are not even well-informed, they didn't even learn how to read the bible. It's as if they are expecting a consistency in the book's thousands of years of different views during Jewish captivity and eras of freedom. God had to renegotiate the Covenant over and over again, before he was successful with The Big players in the Old Testament part of the Bible, Abraham, Noah, Moses, etc. But don't try to help a skeptic, it only seems to infuriate them when it is explained clearly to them, and it makes them doubt their own position. It's as if Christianity means "dirty" to them.

I get very sick at how TV goes on to glorify Atheism, and then follows by being beholden to Power & Status and Material things, especially through tricking, bullying, or taking advantage of others in order to get that Power Status, and Money. A Christian recognizes those are traits The big guy with the horns would love, and using the preferred Methods of the deceiver himself. "Love of the world, is Enmity with God" (meaning if your desire is for personal gains, over a growing understanding of God's love for you, you are offensive in the sight of the lord)

I see a sick society, it would sell it's own blood relations to get ahead, and then treat you as if you were the awful one as the Christ follower. Christ who helped the needy, and cared for even the smallest of nobodies met along the road. I use nobodies broadly, because somehow it seems fitting. Everybody is clamoring to be a somebody these days, and that is a deception in itself.

Anywho just some ramblings on this excellent topic.