Gun Control means hitting your target.

Criminals for gun control

Originally posted by EyesWideShut
reply to post by SpearMint

 

He was calling his truck a missle...he doesn't actually have a "Missle Truck" At the end of the day we're going in circles, I've asked you to state to me in plain english why you feel firearms increase homicide, you can't. This should prove your arguement invalid.

In March 1982, 25 years ago, the small town of Kennesaw – responding to a handgun ban in Morton Grove, Ill. – unanimously passed an ordinance requiring each head of household to own and maintain a gun. Since then, despite dire predictions of “Wild West” showdowns and increased violence and accidents, not a single resident has been involved in a fatal shooting – as a victim, attacker or defender.

Prior to enactment of the law, Kennesaw had a population of just 5,242 but a crime rate significantly higher (4,332 per 100,000) than the national average (3,899 per 100,000). The latest statistics available – for the year 2005 – show the rate at 2,027 per 100,000. Meanwhile, the population has skyrocketed to 28,189

Link

According to you, this should be impossible.....please explain.

edit on 21-7-2012 by EyesWideShut because: (no reason given)

I thought you acknowledged my point in your last post, but never mind... I explained my case in plain numbers.

You can't show me isolated statistics and expect to prove me wrong, because we could just go around in circles, you need to look at countries as a whole (or rather areas with or without such laws), which I did, and showed you the numbers. That example is also a long time ago, some things have changed and the statistics I posted are much more recent than that.

Originally posted by SpearMint

But then you need to apply those same conditions to your examples, the world seems to be getting more violent and crime is generally on the rise. Maybe those increased rates would be the same or higher if gun laws didn't change, people don't just carry guns around on them and I can't really see people owning guns helping a lot of those statistics, carrying some other form of self defence like pepper spray, maybe a taser etc might, I don't know. Thank you for making a reasoned argument and considering what I had to say, no one else is.

That's the reason I posted them, you you'd "Get It" Read This & let me know what you think.

reply to post by SpearMint


Isolated numbers, I'm showing you an entire town where people are forced to be armed by law and they haven't had a homicide in 25 years. It doesn't matter what numbers we use or the size of the sample group, we will both find examples to prove our point. What I want to know is, do you honestly think things would be better if guns were banned from the law abiding populace?

I would like your opinion in "English" not "Numbers" , we've established that numbers can be played with. I'm trying to address the root cause of your arguement.

Gun ownership is right FOR ME, and MANY of my friends...I don't want people that have an agenda(Media/government) scaring simpleminded folks into being afraid of firearms and using tragedies to evoke an emotional response on the populace in order to push through more anti rights legislation.

When people like Piers Morgan say "You shouldn't be able to get 6000 rounds of ammunition off the internet" They are trying to evoke an emotional state in people that don't understand gun culture. 2100 rounds of ammo right Here for $84. So I guess I shouldn't be able to purchase 3 of those...

I buy bulk ammo, do you know why? The same reason I go to Costco and buy a 36 pack of toilet paper. It's Cheaper!

Originally posted by bjax9er

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by bjax9er
oh i do get it.

i think i could kill quite a few people with this 80,000 pound missile (truck) i drive everyday.

should we ban all of those inanimate objects i listed?

please answer:
what do you call the cricket stick? i really want to know. seriously.

How many people have access to missile truck...? Please use realistic examples.

It's called a cricket bat. Not sure why you're talking about it like it's some weird sport Australia plays, I just want to point out that the rest of the world plays cricket and have international teams, baseball is just an American thing. I'm culturally aware enough to know what a baseball bat is called though, never watched or played it in my life. A bit off topic though.

well there are about 12 million 80,000 pound trucks in the u.s. i sleep in one every night.
i'am sure there are a few in aus. too
i refer to them as a missle, because of the damage they can do.
not a missile truck.

i was just curious as to what the cricket bat was called. no offense.
i actually want to play sometime.
but not without my gun, i'am a sore loser.

Well, trucks are a lot different to guns, and sorry I misunderstood, it was the way you phrased it.

Firstly trucks are more expensive than guns.

It's a lot harder to kill people with a truck than a gun.

You're likely to severely injure or kill yourself using a truck as a murder weapon.

You can't bring a truck down an ally, to a drug deal, into a school or shopping mall or other places where shootings may occur, you can't really kill people with a truck and expect to get away.

You can't conceal a truck.

You can't kill people from a distance or discreetly.

You could kill people with a truck but it's just not practical, and you won't get away with it.

You also need to take a look at this SpearMint; en.wikipedia.org...

Coincidence With a decrease in the number of pirates, there has been an increase in global warming over the same period. Therefore, global warming is caused by a lack of pirates.

Okay? You can't just pick a couple statistics for entire nations and expect to prove anything. You know that gun laws are different from state to state in the US right? You cannot compare the US as one entity because there are far too many variables to even list.

Originally posted by EyesWideShut
reply to post by SpearMint

 

Isolated numbers, I'm showing you an entire town where people are forced to be armed by law and they haven't had a homicide in 25 years. It doesn't matter what numbers we use or the size of the sample group, we will both find examples to prove our point. What I want to know is, do you honestly think things would be better if guns were banned from the law abiding populace?

I would like your opinion in "English" not "Numbers" , we've established that numbers can be played with. I'm trying to address the root cause of your arguement.

edit on 21-7-2012 by EyesWideShut because: (no reason given)

But the root cause of my opinion IS numbers, they can't be played with, they're factual statistics. They show that guns increase murders, that is why I'm against people having them. I've given it to you in numbers and English multiple times now. If you look at statistics from small groups, you're going to get variations, and like you said we will both find things to prove our point. This is why you need to look at the world population as a whole, and that's where the proof is. These world homicide statistics show a much larger murder rate in places like America and where gun laws aren't enforced. Places like Australia, England, Wales. Chile, Spain and the USA all have similar non-gun related murder rates, but the USA has a way higher murder rate due to guns than most, if not all western countries.

reply to post by SpearMint


Broken record here.... you have to compare demographics as well, all the variables. You are over simplifying these choice stats to make claims which have no basis because... en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by Darce
You also need to take a look at this SpearMint; en.wikipedia.org...

Coincidence With a decrease in the number of pirates, there has been an increase in global warming over the same period. Therefore, global warming is caused by a lack of pirates.

Okay? You can't just pick a couple statistics for entire nations and expect to prove anything. You know that gun laws are different from state to state in the US right? You cannot compare the US as one entity because there are far too many variables to even list.

Well I'm not well informed on what state has what laws, and I don't really want to spend much time looking in to it, but here's where you can compare.

en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...

From looking at a few states it seems as though states with stricter laws are usually nearer the low end of gun murders.

reply to post by SpearMint

Your statement has no basis in Logic. There are MANY ways to Kill a Person. Guns are just one of them. A person with a Steak Knife could easily kill another person...same thing with a big stick or a rock.

In the United States...it is a STATISTICAL FACT that communities that are well armed...such as the one I live in in Mass....as well as having Weapons Training Programs which I first went to at our local Police Station at the age of 11 years old....are OVERWHELMINGLY SAFER than communities which are not well armed or have Training Programs.

At 11 Years Old...just about every kid in my town goes with their Dad or Mom to this Police Sanctioned and run program which teaches WEAPON SAFETY. A Kid who understands the Danger that is inherent with a weapon as well as how to always treat a weapon as if it were loaded and taught every aspect of many different weapons as well as Knife and Hatchet or Axe Safety...will not become a STATISTIC!

Also...the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights which allows a U.S. Citizen...the RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS....was written as a way for the People of the Nation to be able to carry out a duty described in the Constitution as it say's VERY SPECIFICALLY that when the Government of the United States no longer represents the Will of the People or if it is not a Government of the People, By the People and For the People...then it is a U.S. Citizens DUTY to REMOVE such a Government and use the described system within the Constitution to Install via a certain process which eventually leads to New Elections.

The ability and Right to Bear Arms is a mechanism that helps insure this ability and DUTY of THE PEOPLE and the Forefathers and writers of the U.S. Constitution made sure that The Right to Bear Arms was a Right that is IMPOSSIBLE TO CHANGE without a U.S. Government being labeled a Government that no longer REPRESENTS THE PEOPLE.

All U.S. Citizens have this DUTY to protect the Constitution of THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
Split Infinity

Originally posted by Darce
reply to post by SpearMint

 

Broken record here.... you have to compare demographics as well, all the variables. You are over simplifying these choice stats to make claims which have no basis because... en.wikipedia.org...

It's not a matter of correlation vs causation, because we have the number of murders vs gun murders. Of course guns are the cause of gun murders, if we only had the total figures then you would have a point.

reply to post by SpearMint


truck kills six
didnt apply brakes soon enough

imagine if the driver intended to crash into those people.

i did not pay a dime for my truck, neither do most drivers
just about anyone can get one, or steal one.
you can take it down an ally to a drug deal.
you can take it THROUGH the mall, it's 80,000 pounds of steel
video: right through the concrete barrier
what the difference gun or truck?

it's all in how you use it

reply to post by SpearMint


Mexico has some of the strictest gun laws on earth yet they've had 47,000 people killed in 5 years

Another example of what happens when you disarm the populace.

In Mexico, where criminals are armed to the teeth with high-powered weapons smuggled from the United States, it may come as a surprise that the country has some of the most restrictive gun laws in the world.

Law-abiding Mexicans who want a gun to defend themselves have no good options. Either they fight government red tape to get a legal permit, or they buy one on the black market.

After an outbreak of violence, one embattled community in northern Mexico called Colonia LeBaron has begun to ask if it's time for the country to address its gun laws.

A farming town about 130 miles southwest of El Paso, Texas, in the border state of Chihuahua, Colonia LeBaron was founded by breakaway Mormons from the U.S. who wanted to practice polygamy. Today, most residents hold dual citizenship, speak English and retain close ties to the U.S. A few still practice plural marriage.

Law abiding Mexicans buying illegal guns for defense


If you disarm the populace, the criminals run free.

@above

that's down to poor law enforcement though.

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by SpearMint

 

Your statement has no basis in Logic. There are MANY ways to Kill a Person. Guns are just one of them. A person with a Steak Knife could easily kill another person...same thing with a big stick or a rock.

In the United States...it is a STATISTICAL FACT that communities that are well armed...such as the one I live in in Mass....as well as having Weapons Training Programs which I first went to at our local Police Station at the age of 11 years old....are OVERWHELMINGLY SAFER than communities which are not well armed or have Training Programs.

At 11 Years Old...just about every kid in my town goes with their Dad or Mom to this Police Sanctioned and run program which teaches WEAPON SAFETY. A Kid who understands the Danger that is inherent with a weapon as well as how to always treat a weapon as if it were loaded and taught every aspect of many different weapons as well as Knife and Hatchet or Axe Safety...will not become a STATISTIC!

Also...the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights which allows a U.S. Citizen...the RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS....was written as a way for the People of the Nation to be able to carry out a duty described in the Constitution as it say's VERY SPECIFICALLY that when the Government of the United States no longer represents the Will of the People or if it is not a Government of the People, By the People and For the People...then it is a U.S. Citizens DUTY to REMOVE such a Government and use the described system within the Constitution to Install via a certain process which eventually leads to New Elections.

The ability and Right to Bear Arms is a mechanism that helps insure this ability and DUTY of THE PEOPLE and the Forefathers and writers of the U.S. Constitution made sure that The Right to Bear Arms was a Right that is IMPOSSIBLE TO CHANGE without a U.S. Government being labeled a Government that no longer REPRESENTS THE PEOPLE.

All U.S. Citizens have this DUTY to protect the Constitution of THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
Split Infinity

Yes, but look at the figures, that's all you have to do.

I'm not going to spend any more time here, none of us are going to change gun laws so It's a pointless exercise really. I've given the figures and proven that guns increase homicide rates, most of you have either ignored them or claimed that there are too many variables, there are not, the figures are straight forward, guns are the only cause of gun crimes, maybe some of those crimes would be committed without guns, but we can see that homicide is much lower when gun laws are enforced.

Bye, and thanks to anyone that actually read and understood what I said regardless of whether you agree, rather than avoiding the point I tried to make.

reply to post by SpearMint


Look at California near the top of the list.

Social factors.

reply to post by SpearMint


Yes it is, because you are trying to imply that more guns will cause more homicides.

Originally posted by Darce
reply to post by SpearMint

 

Yes it is, because you are trying to imply that more guns will cause more homicides.

Originally posted by SpearMint
I'll post these numbers again since they were ignored...

I'm going to use England & Wales as an example, but lots of other countries would work.

Overall Homicide rate per 100k people:

England & Wales - 1.45
USA - 4.55

So here we can see that homicide is much higher in the US, but this doesn't tell us much, so moving on.

Non-firearm Homicides per 100k people:

England & Wales - 1.33
USA - 1.58

Not that much difference, there's around the same amount of non-gun related murders in the USA as there are in England & Wales, let's move on.

Firearm Homicides per 100k people:

England & Wales - 0.12
USA - 2.97

And there we are, MUCH higher. Guns cause more homicides, what more proof do you need? 8% of homicides are gun related in England & Wales, 65% are gun related in the USA. Guns enable people to kill, and that's what they're used for. The proof is RIGHT THERE.

THEY DO.

Goodbye now.

Poverty, social injustice and certain genetic predispositions cause some men to kill other men more often than others.

reply to post by SpearMint

i sure wish that IF you're gonna link it, you'd at least READ it.
from your link ...

However Lott has recently updated his findings with further evidence. According to the FBI, during the first year of the Obama administration the national murder rate declined by 7.4% along with other categories of crime which fell by significant percentages. During that same time national gun sales increased dramatically. According to Mr. Lott 450,000 more people bought guns in November 2008 than November 2007 which represents a 40% increase in sales, a trend which continued throughout 2009. The drop in the murder rate was the biggest one-year drop since 1999, another year when gun sales soared in the wake of increased calls for gun control as a result of the Columbine shooting.

while tragedies often propel gun sales, increased gun sales seldom lead to more gun deaths.
see the recent findings in bold above.

and your country vs country statistics are anything BUT factual.
once you accept that reality, perhaps your opinion of this topic will be less ignorant.

reply to post by SpearMint
more from your link ...

Using publicly available media reports, the Violence Policy Center claims that from May 2007 through the end of 2009, concealed carry permit holders in the U.S. have killed at least 117 individuals, including 9 law enforcement officers (excluding cases where individuals were acquitted, but including pending cases). There were about 25,000 murders by firearm that period, meaning that concealed carry permit holders committed less than 1% of the murders by firearm. Furthermore, a large number of the victims were killed in extended suicides, most of which took place in the home of the shooter, where arms can be possessed without special permits. VPC also includes in its numbers several homicides using only long guns and several instances of accidental discharge.

hmmmm, less than 1% over an extended period.
yep, that sure reads like a real problem in need of global intervention