Jobs are a RIGHT, not a privilege. All are entitled to employment.

Governments have provided jobs for thier citizens in the past.
They're called WORK CAMPS!!!
Employment for all...freedom for none.

Anything that requires someone else to work on your behalf is not a "right." You have the right to free speech. That's fine. That doesn't cause me more work. The onus is all on you. Speak up! You have the right to your religion. Believe what you want. As long as you don;t foist that crap on me, that's fine. believe what you want. You bae the right not to incriminate yourself. OK. You may be as guilty as hell, and we may be abe to prove it despite your silence. You have a lot of rights like that and I have no problem with them.

But a RIGHT to a job? Who is going to pay your salary? And for what, exactly? When I have to pay your salary plus all those benefits you say you have a RIGHT to, I'm not so happy about that. I do not owe you a living. When I see welfare moms with 20 children angrily complaining that people have to step up to the plate and provide for her I have to laugh. She's learned to do one thing in this life, and that is to be a warning to others. Let HER step up to the plate.

If you claim you have a right to a job, OK. Start a business on your own. You have the right to do that. But I am under no obligation to take care of you, either via the government or myself, Dream on.

A healthy citizen of a country has a right to work, but there is not a right to a job. The right to work means you can work for yourself if no one gives you a job. Saying you have a right to a job means ignoring the fact that a lot of people don't want to work, thus you would find that lazy people would have a job and produce no benefit to society. That is just asking for people to abuse the system.

Originally posted by Sinny
reply to post by beezzer

 

Bezza, I think for the first time I disagree with you

The Gov require us to own currency, the Gov should be the one to provide that currency, i.e via work.

Currency is just the standard medium used to denote property or work effort. The government actually has NO currency. All that they have, is gained from taxes, which comes from all of us.

reply to post by Sinny


How can you expect the services you recieve as a property owner without paying for them ? The legalaties in accordence with the Constitution aside...we must pay towards fire...police...clean water....in some places you can opt out of fire protection by not paying...dont pay for clean water....and as for police it comes with the territory....not arguing in favor of taxes but we cannot have what we have without paying for it

This IS the futre. we should not Have to work at ALL.
They can make things to last.
but they dont.

they wont us to work as slaves.

There is so much that is really involved in this discussion and things have changed since our country was founded.
All land in america is owned by the wealthy, BLM, the military, state governments, or handed down from generation to generation and land is note cheap.So unless you buy some land or some gives it to you, your out of luck either way you will pay taxes.
When it comes to taxes, like it or not , there are city, county,state and federal taxes,and those taxes are generated by the needs to run everything we take for granted.As a society we need money for streets, sidewalks, schools, police, fire,water, power, telephone service, cable TV and bigger ,better and newer homes The DEMAND increases so bussiness move in to increase the SUPPLY for more DEMAND
This is how the system works. DEMAND also calls for variety and bigger and better selection which is good for business.
How can a society build and maintain itself without revenue ?
Which leads us to the clowns that run it.
Would you let a stranger drive your new car ?
Would you let a stranger watch your kids ?
Would you let a stranger watch your home while your on vacation ?
No, but we let stangers run citys, states and federal government and spend our tax dollars.
Yes, there is a system and it got away because we let it go.
We were never forced into it our gradparents and greatgrandparents left their farms and ranches to seek fame and fortune in the big city and the only reason we're stuck in it now is because we let the system loose.
The system is an out of control monster that society created , maintained and trusted the care to other who didn't care and milked it for all they could.

Originally posted by hollwd
reply to post by thisguyrighthere

 

You don't work you don't have to pay taxes.. even if you do work. I know people who never pay, they move to often to be found and work under the table, there is always a way around most stuff.. I am still hoping for the day she gets tagged.. I have even tried to help.. payback is a bitch..

If you don't have income you don't pay income tax, but if you own property you still have to pay property tax regardless of how much money you have.

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
reply to post by projectvxn

 

Of course there's work involved but it's your work free of income tax, free of employment for employments sake.

So many people just take any job they can get because of these taxes threatening to take their homes away.

A set tax means you have to meet a set income or else.

No set tax means your production isnt mandated on a time scale.

I wouldnt have to get together X number of dollars a week because some entity holding all the guns says so.

It's more than possible to live completely independent of food bills, electric bills, water bills, etc.... yet the one bill you can never escape is the tax bill.

Even the Amish have to pay property taxes and they have to do pretty unethical things to pay them.

edit on 21-7-2012 by thisguyrighthere because: (no reason given)

Great post!

The Amish are a perfect example. There are other similar groups that are also forced to deal with money because of property tax. They could survive and support themselves independently of the system, but they are not allowed to.

Originally posted by HangTheTraitors
he/she is simply using it [color=cyan]to SUPPORT the main idea that PROPERTY TAX should NOT be enforced by law without that same LAW ENSURING us that we can MEET such FORCED OBLIGATIONS. If that cannot be arranged, then forcing us to pay property taxes SHOULD NOT BE ENFORCED by law.

Thanks bud! You have phrased it perfectly. I have never been successful at condensing down my thoughts into an easy to grasp paragraph like that. I usually ramble on and on trying to demonstrate my idea, most likely boring people and making it more difficult to understand what I'm trying to say.

Originally posted by johngrissom
reply to post by James1982

 

O' RLY? Who died and made you king? It is freakin ridiculous for YOU to say it is a right. So now let me ask you some questions.


The person who spits in my food at a restaurant has a right to have that job and spit in my food. Is this part of the right, having this job?

The person who kills many kids driving a school bus because this person was texting. Is this part of the right, having this job?

The person who steals my credit information and opens a loan in my account. Is this part of the right, having this job?

You say we have to participate in the "system." Well if you knew a damn about taxes, anything under $3000 you do not have to file.

You say we all need money to live? REALLY??? How did the so called cave man do it? They we're so rich with money!

You know what it really is.........................most of the world is completely lazy and expect everything to be handed to them. GROW UP!

Having a job is a privilege and if YOU can't learn to accept that, then on top of that DO YOUR JOB LIKE IT SHOULD BE DONE. YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOU DON'T DESERVE ANY JOB. I'am 24 years old. My parents are rich BUT I have to earn everything I EARN. I have a wife and a 15 month old. I have no credit cards and a new car with 3.6 interest and $300 payments a month with NO CREDIT. I make 20 grand a year and have food on the table with money to spare.

Now how is it that the rest of the world cannot follow suit???????????????? All of you let the government dictate your life. Credit cards...loans...welfare...and then you b!tch. Well no wonder why this world is the way it is. No self-control and complete laziness

"whooosh"

That's the sound of my OP going right over your head.

You say we all need money to live? REALLY??? How did the so called cave man do it? They we're so rich with money!

They lived by finding/building their own shelter, hunting, and foraging. I spelled this out in my OP. Obviously they did not need money to live, because they did not have a government that demanded money from them.

You say we have to participate in the "system." Well if you knew a damn about taxes, anything under $3000 you do not have to file.

I do know a damn about taxes, and I'm not talking about income tax. I'm talking about property tax. This was repeated by me probably a good 20 times already in this thread. How you missed that is beyond me. Land provides you with the means to support yourself directly, without being employed or dealing with the US dollar. But even if you are self sufficient, you still have to cut old uncle sam a check every once and awhile. That's forced participation in the system.

I'm not sure of the relevance of the first part of your post. Or what lazy people have to do with anything.

The whole premise is that someone who wants to directly support themselves by hunting, fishing, foraging, building their own shelter, etc on their own land is unable to do so without also generating income.


If you are trying to say that a person that hunts and forages for every single thing they eat, or builds their entire shelter by themselves, and supports themselves completely and wholly independently is somehow lazy because they are not generating income, you are wrong. Such a person is the most non-lazy, motivated and hard working person out there. The lazy ones are the ones working a job, and then paying other people to take care of all their needs (food, shelter, etc)

You talk about the "cave men" do you consider them lazy?

They didn't pay for anything. They ate for free. They drank for free. They lived for FREE, they supported themselves by their own hard work. Such a lifestyle is made illegal in this country, you are not allowed to do it.

Try chopping down some trees on BLM land to build a cabin, hunting animals for food and clothing, and mind your own business. It wont happen. You'll likely be arrested and fined. Arrested and fined for attempting to live a lifestyle that out species was meant for.

Before you say nobody wants to live like that, your wrong. Aside from the groups such as the Amish that someone else already mentioned, there are many people in the Appalachian mountains that basically live off the land and support themselves. Many love their lifestyle and do not wish to become city dwellers and sit in an office 40 hours a week filing papers and pecking away on a keyboard. You think they are lazy? They aren't. They are some of the hardest working people in this country. But they too are at the mercy of the government's taxes which many times cause them to loose their land, their land which is their means of survival.

Originally posted by BigFrigginAl
No...it is not a right. Just because you want a job, does not make you entitled to one...the only person that owes you anything is...YOU. What a ridiculous notion...if you do not have the skill set for a job, it should just be handed to you? What's next in your line of thought...said job should revolve around you...the hours you want to work, the days you want to work...I'll say the same damn thing I tell my teenagers...life ain't fair...you want something...YOU need to make it happen.

As I said, this thread isn't about me. I support myself quite well without any need for handouts or assistance.

you want something...YOU need to make it happen.

I agree completely. That's the problem though. It's illegal to support one's self without being a part of the system.

Say I want to grow my own food, hunt, fish, build my own cabin, produce my own clothes. I'm supporting myself. That's the only duty any person has, is to support themselves (and children if they are so inclined to make them) We aren't allowed. Even if we are able to 100% support ourselves WITHOUT a job or money, we STILL would have to pay property tax on the land that we live off of.

A person isn't lazy or entitled because they want to be independent. Compared to such a person you and I are the lazy ones. We work a little bit at a job, then use our money to pay other people to take care of us (grow our food, build our houses, make our clothes) THAT'S lazy. A person that wholly supports themselves off nothing but the land they live on is the most hard working person out there. They should be the ones sitting around calling all us employees lazy.

Think about the various tribal people around the world. Are they lazy? They support themselves completely, and have done so for generations. Should they be taxed? Are they lazy for not wanting to be taxed?

If I go into the Amazon and find some tribe of people who are completely independent and totally support themselves, and demand they pay me money, I also have the responsibility to make sure they have the means to generate the money I'm demanding.

The root of this entire thread and the entire argument is that property tax is a violation of our right to life. Everything else is just supporting evidence.

Originally posted by morder1
I see where you are going with this, I agree the property tax is to keep people in the system

But even today, most people dont even own the property they are living at, and it is phasing out all together within the next century I bet...

Anymore we are a nation of renters, not owners

Look at that "firesale" post a month ago about all those foreclosed homes being bought up by people with a minimum of 1 billion to invest...

It will only get worse from here unless we do something to get the land back to the people, instead of the few psychopaths renting it out to us all

There is a huge push to bring this country back into serfdom. Property tax for those lucky enough to own land, and the attack of personal property ownership rights is at the heart of this.

Owning private property is the basis of being a free person. Without it, we are serfs. We are peons working for the lords of the manner.

Real ownership of property does not exist in this country because of property tax. We are renting property from the government. What's the difference between renting property and owning it? None. If I own property, I have to pay a tax (rent) to the government. If I rent property I have to pay rent to the renter. If I own property and want to build something on it, I have to ask the government, pay a fee, and get permission to do something on MY OWN land. If I rent, and want to build something on the property, I have to ask the renter. If I don't pay the government tax (rent) on the land I supposedly own, they take it away from me. If I don't pay my landlord money for the land I rent, they take it away. No differences.

Property tax means NOBODY owns property. You cannot own property if the government can steal it from you for not paying them. Everyone who thinks they own property is simply renting it from the government.

This is slavery of a very clever sort. Slaves were forced to work, and in turn were provided with the means to survive. We aren't even given that. As citizens we are forced to work to survive, but not even given the guarantee of work. At least slaves were guaranteed the work which provided them survival.

Until I can own property without paying a tax (rental fee) to the government for owning that land, I will never be free. The same goes for every many woman and child in this country. So if I'm going to be a slave, at least treat me like one, and guarantee me a means to survive.

Originally posted by nwtrucker
You are responsible for your survival, no one else. it is not a social responsibllity, it's a personal one.

You won't find any disagreement from me.

But once again, we are NOT ALLOWED to survive on our own. We are not allowed to be independent.

We are forced to earn income. If I want to take complete responsibility for my survival, and fetch my own food, build my own shelter, etc I am not legally allowed to do so without ALSO generating income.

How is that right? We have the responsibility to provide for ourselves, yes. We don't have any responsibility to pay a property tax.

I'll go back to the slave comparison. A slave is required to work in order to survive, and is guaranteed work.

A citizen today is required to work in order to survive, but is not guaranteed work.

You cannot force someone to work in order to survive without also guaranteeing them work. The solution to this issue is to abolish property tax. Then there is no issue, because you are no longer required to earn income to survive. You can support yourself from your land, without having to pay uncle sam anything.

reply to post by James1982


Then don't own property. It's the same argument with car insurance...don't like it don't own a car.


Plenty of people rent and are perfectly happy and never pay a penny in property or school taxes, the landlord covers those. But there has to be a way to pay for roads and police etc....even if you privatize the services, it still has to be paid for. The only other way I can see is eliminate all taxes as they exist now and go to flat/fair or vat tax one or the other no loopholes or deductions cut and dry...everyone who lives in the country pays the same percentage of either their income or their output...pick one.

reply to post by Cassius37


Since I'm tired of replying with the exact same response worded in a different way every time, I'll just use HTT's reply, hope he doesn't mind:

Originally posted by HangTheTraitors

For those who cannot grasp anything from the OP other than thinking that he/she is belittling your crony-capitalist love (NOT TRUE capitalism but your love of CRONY capitalism by the way) he/she is simply using it [color=cyan]to SUPPORT the main idea that PROPERTY TAX should NOT be enforced by law without that same LAW ENSURING us that we can MEET such FORCED OBLIGATIONS. If that cannot be arranged, then forcing us to pay property taxes SHOULD NOT BE ENFORCED by law.

reply to post by James1982


Your example of going into the Amazon struck me....

That's how both the mafia and the Unions work, they demand payment and benefits from companies without guaranteeing the companies any work...(anywhere to get work from i should say, they don't care if they run them out of business with their demands, crazy)

reply to post by Jeremiah65


See, we don't really even disagree. I've said numerous times how I don't think we should ACTUALLY guarantee jobs for everything. The right to a job is only relevant because of property tax. I don't want it that way, I don't support it, but if it's going to exist it needs to exist in a fair and balanced way. As HTT said:

Originally posted by HangTheTraitors

For those who cannot grasp anything from the OP other than thinking that he/she is belittling your crony-capitalist love (NOT TRUE capitalism but your love of CRONY capitalism by the way) he/she is simply using it [color=cyan]to SUPPORT the main idea that PROPERTY TAX should NOT be enforced by law without that same LAW ENSURING us that we can MEET such FORCED OBLIGATIONS. If that cannot be arranged, then forcing us to pay property taxes SHOULD NOT BE ENFORCED by law.

reply to post by James1982


Then who pays for the services we need as a society?

Am I being clear in my question?

Originally posted by beezzer

Ahhhh, I see the disconnect. You're working under the impression that it is the governments role to provide jobs.

That would be the case in countries that follow a socialist or communist or fascist model.

Not under a system that the US Constitution follows.

Cheers

Yes, since the government FORCES us to earn income to live, then it's their responsibility to guarantee the means to generate income.

I think it's a terrible idea. I hate government intrusion and control of our lives. The solution? Get rid of property tax. Then we are no longer FORCED to earn income to live, therefore there is zero responsibility on the government to provide jobs.

If you support the idea that a person should sink or swim based on their own hard work, then you should agree with me. Get rid of property tax, and a person can live 100% independently and live based on their own work and effort.

You cannot capture a slave and require it to work in order to receive meals, but then not provide it with work. That's what the government is currently doing. Again, the solution is to free the slave, allow it to live freely and support itself.