Nuclear fuel rods removed from Japan's Fukushima plant

bury them.

reply to post by Infi8nity


Don`t know about that, but what i do know is that there is no 100% safe place for them

reply to post by TheRedneck


Sadly I have to completely agree with you. This was actually over before it started. The lack of common sense in siteing and designing this plant was a disaster waiting to happen, and It did.

Now the people of that area who have already had to deal with the tsunami and the meltdown of the reactors, will have to deal with whatever fallout the cleanup will have. Thousands will die, if they haven't already.

I have no words to discribe how criminal this is. It seems that nobody is being held responsible for the total negligence displayed throughout this mess. I guess that no one ever will.


How much more radiation will they release before this is over? How much more contamination will they cause? Just the thought of what is to come makes me shudder, as if what has already happened isn't bad enough.

reply to post by lonegurkha

There is an old episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation where an elderly couple are found living on a devastated world. The backstory is that the old man is an alien; the old woman is a hologram of his human wife who was killed in the devastation before he killed the entire race that attacked them. What made me think of this was Captain Picard's statement after the story is revealed and the alien sits awaiting judgement:

"We have no law to cover your crime."

There is no punishment in this life that can cover the crimes that surround Fukushima. There is no punishment that exists which can set society right again. There is no law to cover their crimes.

As we speak, there are radioactive puddles of uranium sitting inside the ground beneath these reactors, producing heat and radiation that will continue for at least decades. There are fuel rods sitting atop the ground which are subjected to this heat and radiation. The radiation they have already emitted cannot be cleaned up; we have no way to stop unstable atoms from decaying or to make energetic particles stop spewing energy. Removal of these rods will also not stop the remains of the cores from decaying.

There is but one reasonable alternative: entomb the entire plant under boronated concrete and seal the entire shoreline... a proposition that may be so extensive that both TEPCO and the Japanese government combined will be unable to accomplish it.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by Infi8nity
Where do they plan to put them?

OUR ocean.

reply to post by TheRedneck


I'm afraid that you are right my friend. There is no law against the stupidity that was perpitrated here. I don't know how there could be. As Ron White says you can't fix stupid. He is so right.

I agree with the sealing with boranated concrete. However I don't think they will do that as the stupidity continues.

Funny how stupid seems to build upon itself. I wish they would just do the right thing and seal that mess up instead of trying to save it or salvage something from it.

But apparently they can't see the forest for the trees. Those folks are lower than a snakes belly in a wagon rut.

I am so bothered about this crisis that it just makes my head spin. You know if it was something that we had control of like hunger or homelessness it would be fine, but something requiring a budget similar to space flight? Not to mention it will take almost a million years to begin seeing a balance in the ecosystems effected by radiation. Has anyone heard of what the elderly are doing there in Japan? They are actually sticking their necks out and basically sacrificing themselves in order to protect the healthier and younger citizens. It makes me angry to even think that they have to do that, you know ruin the remainder of their life for industrialism. It won't be long before it happens to us, and that my friends is not a good reality to ponder upon. Their are so many sections of Earth that are literally trashed due to industrialism helping to cause widespread cancer, but the gov could never admit this or else people would be pissed. I would rather live with only live with 4 hrs of electricity a day than to further the trashing of the only planet we know.

theweek.com...

Originally posted by phroziac
Arent these the same fuel rods that nobody could go near and they killed robots in seconds? Wtf?
I thi
By the way, how many nuclear reactors have melted down in the usual? How many nuclear engineers were killed by standing on top of a reactor and pulling so hard on control rods that they pulled them completely out? How many nuclear bombs have detonated in the usa?

Seriously, the us government secretly melted down like 80 reactors in the desert. They were all safely dismantled and this is easily verified. Sure, they didnt happen in the tokyo metro area. This isnt even close to being a worldwide extinction event

If you have sources or good links for this info, I'd be interested. Thanks.

What bothers me about nuclear power is the waste disposal,i had no idea until recently that their is no real way of disposing it so they keep it in special containers where it can remain radioactive for up to millions of years,so we are relying on people to look after these containers for the duration of humanities existence, doesn't sound good to me.

Despite our past nuclear disasters i think we have been lucky so far,how long will it be before we really screw up? honestly id rather we go back to safer energy production i wouldn't mind cutting down my electricity usage if thats what it takes,its better than dying a slow painful death of radiation poisoning.

I'm far from any appearance of a authority, in fact I know less than nothing.... but I suspect they will transfer the rods to a container with liquid, maybe even pumping in liquid nitrogen or some coolant to maintain a cold container then lift them and deposit them in the lead containers, also filled with a cooled liquid........ just a guess. I also suspect the Marianas trench might be a likely depository, though that sounds flakey to me as a solution. I really don't know?

AMURPHY245... I think they thought some later generation might figure out how, then the problem would be solved... just a guess. At the rate technology is progressing, it's plausible.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
Fukushima...

If one wished to write a instruction manual on everything not to do when operating a nuclear power plant, one would be hard pressed to find a more complete list. The lack of safety backups in the design, the proximity of radioactive water to sea water, the location on a subduction zone, the lack of hindsight in estimating probable quake strengths, the location of the diesel generators and tanks susceptible to tsunami damage/contamination, the delays bringing in alternate power sources, the lack of honesty when evaluating damage, the corporate coverup of important information, the pure lack of common sense in attempting cooling operations...

After this comedy of errors, there is really little anyone can do. Northern Japan is a zombie, dead but not yet fallen down. We have no technology that can reverse, or even slow at this point, the damage.

I wish them luck in removing the rods. Chances are that everyone who works on that project will die either from acute radiation poisoning or from cancerous infestation shortly afterwards. Sadly, they will probably be joined soon enough by the population of that area. I have no concern about a media cover-up... there is nothing left to cover up, really. The damage has been done, all that is left is to watch the aftermath. This was over less than a week after the tsunami.

TheRedneck

Given that you work in this industry ( nuclear power) do you see a way that 6% of the worlds power can be produced in a way that validates the financial and environmental costs in building maintaining and "securing" the future of this kind of power .

....not an attack On a man I admire (TRN) , but 1500+ commercial , experimental and military reactors world wide and FUKU only one site with six reactors and four going critical pollutes half a world , high and low for at least the next three decades , in the first few hours , but now after a year and a half of radiation spewing , what can we expext from the KIND of people running this industry ...?

reply to post by Plotus

Liquid nitrogen will do no good.The problem is not that the rods get hot (although getting hot enough to melt is obviously a problem), but that they will continue to give off radioactivity for eons to come. Boronated water works better, since boron absorbs neutrons and water dissipates heat.


reply to post by Silverlok

Given that you work in this industry ( nuclear power) do you see a way that 6% of the worlds power can be produced in a way that validates the financial and environmental costs in building maintaining and "securing" the future of this kind of power .

The problem is deeper than just whether nuclear power is safe or unsafe. It's more about the methods used to produce the power.

Fukushima used direct liquid cooling form an outside source. That places raw coolant in the reactor core itself, meaning that any breach in that cooling loop is a danger of radiation leakage. Considering that the cooling loop in this kind of reactor runs throughout the entire structure, from reactor to turbines to oceanic cooling coils and back to the reactor, that's a huge risk of serious problems. The plant I worked at uses dual cooling loops: the primary simply pumps boronated water from the core to a heat exchanger inside a concrete-lined reactor building, while a secondary loop runs from the heat exchanger to the turbine to the cooling towers and back to the heat exchanger. No radioactive water ever exits the reactor building itself, unless there is a leak in the heat exchanger.

Fukushima miscalculated the maximum seismic event strength by purposely cutting the period of time examined short to avoid a massive historic event. In the US, the NRC does those calculations, not the utility. The utility simply does as the NRC commands.

Fukushima did not have the needed infrastructure in place to bring in equipment in case of an emergency. In the US, the NRC is picky, picky, picky about infrastructure.

Fukushima's workers were apparently not familiar with nuclear plant operation (outside of "push this button if this happens"). In the US, nuclear workers in an operable plant are required to be educated on the operational theory behind nuclear power plants.

Fukushima was run by the utility, even after problems had been identified. In the US, one confirmed leak brings in government intervention immediately, and government monitors radiation levels around operating plants 24/7.

In other words, just because Fukushima was a comedy of errors does not mean other plants will be. Nuclear power can be safe, as long as it is monitored, well-designed, and regulated tightly.

TheRedneck

reply to post by TheRedneck

In other words, just because Fukushima was a comedy of errors does not mean other plants will be. Nuclear power can be safe, as long as it is monitored, well-designed, and regulated tightly.

Fukushima the worst nuclear disaster in the history of the human race is as you say ' a comedy of errors',

First I find NO COMEDY in the irradiation ( for a year and a half) of the entire Northern hemisphere ( and the three to four decades long pollution of the upper atmosphere )

Second, even if the Fukushima event was "mishandled" , so far no criminal charges have been brought... one would expect that, at some point, a life threatening industry wiith such an "comedy of " life threatening errors on a global scale would show some accountability...given the nature of how they have POLLUTED the planet.

Given Tepco's PROVEN history of lies to avoid fiduciary or moral responsibility do you believe this is a sibgular behavior for one company, or ...

...a global incentive for an industry ?

an industry that supplies less than 6% of the NON-MILITARY electricity in the world

and in any event what safe guards should be in place for 'companies' that pollute ( for decades to come ) beyond their own borders?[


(on edit)

and what of WASTE or "SPENT" fuel rods....which as we have seen is the MAJOR issue with accountability in the nuclear power industry?

reply to post by Silverlok
playing on that note:


ajw.asahi.com...

Workers at the crippled Fukushima No. 1 nuclear plant were ordered to cover their dosimeters with lead plates to keep radiation doses low enough to continue working under dangerous conditions, the Asahi Shimbun has learned. Some refused the orders. Others raised questions about their safety and the legality of the practice. But the man in charge, a senior official of a subcontractor of Tokyo Electric Power Co., warned them that they would lose their jobs--and any chance of employment at other nuclear plants--if they failed to comply.

reply to post by Silverlok

I'm not exactly laughing at this either. "Comedy of errors" is a figure of speech, not an allusion to humorous content.

Fukushima uncovered a myriad of problems with regulation in Japan, of which you provided an excellent example in your next post. The actions of TEPCO are so irresponsible that there is no punishment that can even come close to satisfying their debt to society. However, the harshest devastation is on the isle of Japan, the same isle where the corruption was allowed to flourish. While there will probably be some detectable amounts of radiation to enter, say, US borders, the amount will be minor. The cure for pollution is dilution.

I am a firm believer in strict regulation of any nuclear power plant, as I believe I have alluded to earlier. The Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC) is the US version of that regulation, and they do a pretty good job of ensuring that nuclear plants are built and operated to strict codes of design and conduct. The nuclear power industry in the US runs scared of these governmental bulldogs, and with good reason. They have no qualms about closing a plant on the slightest safety concern if they feel it is warranted.

In short, Fukushima could not happen here. The designs are far safer, regulations are in place and are enforced tightly, and collusion between government and nuclear power plants does not exist. I have seen attempts to get Congressional members to intervene with the NRC; it was a mistake, as all that happened is the NRC decided maybe someone had something to hide and they wanted to know what.

Contrast that with TEPCO... they paid off government officials, had free reign to operate as they saw fit, were able to cover up radiation leaks, and regularly endangered the lives of their workers to keep the truth of their operations from being revealed.

I'm not really sure what else you want me to say? Should TEPCO be punished? YES! TEPCO should be dissolved, their assets liquidated to pay for international cleanup and entombment of their mess, and everyone in management who knew anything about the violations happening should be jailed and their asserts seized and added to the pile. It still will not be enough to adequately compensate for the damage they did, but it would be a start and a deterrent to anyone else who wishes to act so recklessly.

But on an international stage, how do we enforce regulations on sovereign nations? That is the real issue. No nation is willing to give up their privacy and sovereignty to an agency of international regulation, regardless of the reason.

TheRedneck

reply to post by TheRedneck

The cure for pollution is dilution.

what happens when there is not enough 'solution' to completely neutralize the offending dillutant? ( as you know this would end in a precipitation )

There is nothing you can say ...we disagree

I say corruption makes nukes currently too dangerous

You say here ( in the US ) the corruption is not bad enough to allow a FUKU type event to happen ....even though the NRC has been clearly shown to be a complete shill. BUt honestly even if more accidents happen not here in the US how many more FUKU"S would it take in other countries to decimate the world?

2, 3? less than 5 over the next 50 years for sure....

and waste is waste who is going to pay to get rid of that? given the nuke industries history of " overstocking" waste I am certain they will try to make it taxpayers responsibility

I am sorry man ...nuclear power in it's current iteration ( politically /fiduciarily ) is poisonous, from now till underverse come

and TNR:

...The cure for pollution is dilution...

really?

seriously?

the cure for radioactive pollution is spreading it as evenly as possible ( across the planet in this case ) , so that a little for everyone is ...O.K.?,

let's say that's good for today...given that we have a lot of reactors being past their 30 year prime being re-newed( under circumspect polices ) ...


how many tomorrows do we have?

reply to post by Silverlok

hhhmm isn't this thread missing ....

...a...

...little something...

something.

like the concept that corruption in business and government has been proven to make the industry completely nontransparent and , now, suspiciously so? ....

TNR ...hi ..in case I am getting old and forgetting where I am at ...I still respect PARTS OF HOW you think( but not perhaps how certain spider webs function ) , but we still disagree....

greed and power corruption make nukes too unsafe...I stand behind my position. Hiding , erasing and changing nothing.

Perhaps that ideal make my head too full of unicorns and lepricons...the concept of standing behind EVERY SINGLE THING ONE HAS SAID OR WRITTEN ...as opposed to ...say time travel ..that can make reality more fluid for certain individuals.

just a thought about the nature of modern power and control and both the physical and other levels

Reply to post by Wrabbit2000

Say they did entomb it, would it survive an earthquake like the one that started it all?


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