Mass Shootings, Guns, and the US

Originally posted by antonia

Originally posted by FortAnthem


The first thing I thought when I read about this is; isn't Colorado a pretty liberal concealed carry state? Where were the people carrying when this happened? Why didn't even one patron in that theater have a gun?

One person carrying could have stopped this situation in its tracks. Its a shame more people don't exercise their right to self defense.

The guy was suited up in body armor and had tear gas. Trying to take him on with a handgun would not have been a good idea.

Head shot. Body armor only protects what it covers. Head, legs, even feet can be a target. In that case, any thing that would have put him down would have been worth the risk.

reply to post by getreadyalready


Yes, having more weapons will safe the country. Is that what you are telling me?
What the sake is it good for? Killing your own countrymen?

Kill as many as you wish. I don't see any reason for this.
I feel much better walking down dark streets knowing those guys who approach me don't have any guns.

This is my experience, so don't tell me anything else.
If you over there are still on a lower level, then you should be eager to get on a better level right now. This is the 21st century!

Get rid of your past and try to trust your neighbor.

Originally posted by Siddharta
reply to post by Valhall

 

You very much would be simply killed by someone who had the same arguments as you for running around with a gun.

You would not have the opportunity to be the saviour, when they shoot at simple people like you and me. You only could try to make it more difficult for them to have a weapon to kill you, while you simply want to watch a film.

But too many here think it is their basic right to have a weapon to kill you. So your chances are low.

And you are a very odd person who doesn't realize that the rest of us see just how odd you appear! Aside from that, thanks for the feedback.

reply to post by Valhall


And you don't realize that USA is only a part of the world. A very disturbed part of the world.

I live in Venezuela,where guns are outlawed.theres no way to buy a weapon here.
The murder rate is comparable to a country at war like Iraq and Mexico(cartel wars),and all are by gunfire.
The solution is not making guns illegal, nor is it making guns more accesible.

There has to be a middle ground, a balance, like everything in life. Let's debate about what that middle ground would be, and not who's to blame, because it's not just videogames,MKULTRA or terrorism.

reply to post by Siddharta

Get rid of your past and try to trust your neighbor.

I actually do trust my neighbors. They are well-armed, self-sufficient, and personally responsible. I very rarely even lock my doors.

I hope your way works, and I hope you are never the victim of a violent crime. A few weeks ago I had a young lady and an adorable little boy here at a party. The 21 year old young lady is very, very attractive, except for the wide keloid scars across her neck, chest, back, and abdomen where the father of the adorable little boy attempted to kill her with a knife a few months ago. She lost her fiance and father in the attack, and her and the little boy would have died, except the fiance hid the boy, and wrapped his t-shirt around her neck, and called 911 on his cell phone before succumbing to his own wounds.

No gun. Just an average kitchen knife. I know these people personally. Violent crime happens. A lot of the time it even happens from people you once loved.

Verify my story.

On another note, on the same news site, just last week a homeowner with a gun was able to run off a would be burglar, and that burglar ended up carjacking 3 people later that night, and eventually killing himself in one of the cars. He didn't have a gun, but he was a very bad, and very violent guy.

reply to post by getreadyalready


The most dangerous weapon of mass destruction in the united states is a van and some fertalizer. Timothy Macvey proved that. Why do we still argue over firearms? Airplanes alledgedly killed way more people on 9/11.

When you have a problem, who do you call? The cops! Why? Cops have guns! If guns are so bad, why not call Martha Stewart the next time someone is trying to break into your house and kill you?

reply to post by Evolutionsend


I'll call Martha if they're trying to steal my investment portfolio, or ruin my flower garden, but not if they're trying to beat down my front door, LOL!

Yes, common fertilizer and diesel fuel was the worst death toll in the US history, up until they used kerosene and jetliners to make an even bigger one. Before that, lets think about the worst killers in history, Gacy, Manson, Bundy, Dahmer..... how many used guns?

The guns are NOT the problem, the problem is mental illness, lack of personal responsibility, deflecting blame as part of the societal norm, etc. "It was a bad childhood, a bad drug, a crime of passion, a mental illness, his mother didn't love him, his mother loved him too much, or the wrong way, etc."

12 Worst Serial Killers in US

For our UK friends, did Jack the Ripper use a gun?

Originally posted by Siddharta
reply to post by phroziac

 

You are the one we should be looking at.

Oh, because i choose to have the means to protect myself, im a mass mrderer? Sweet. Im gonna grab my ar15 and go to the movies

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by freethinker123

 

"freethinker"

Do freethinkers really go about dictating what other people should be doing or thinking?

There is no gun problem in the United States. Our rate of violence is equal to or below most other countries (including those with MAJOR restrictions on gun ownership). The OP shows where the majority of gun massacres over the last 25 years occurred OUTSIDE THE US! Especially in places that have extreme gun control measures. Obviously restricting the guns doesn't solve the problem.

Even looking at the Colorado incident from last night. Only 1 guy out of more than a hundred had a gun. As soon as he encountered the armed police outside, he surrendered. Its just too bad he didn't encounter armed resistance sooner, so he could have surrendered or been neutralized sooner.

OK, so what you are saying is that I'm not allowed to have an opinion? The reason I express an opinion at all is because I give a damn about the victims of these crimes. I don't see much sympathy coming from those with political positions who forget those that suffer because of their beliefs.

I don't know how happy it makes you to compare the US gun stats to countries that in all honesty are not in the same league. The standard you should be looking for is your peers - Canada, UK, Germany, Sweden, France.

Could you produce some statistics for your belief that somebody armed stops these whackos with guns in mass killings. I remember reading reports that when the lady senator was shot at that some members of the public were armed but didn't do anything. I have read similar stories in previous shootings. Isn't it true that this belief of the NRA lobby has no factual basis and is just an opinion? Correct me if I'm wrong...

reply to post by freethinker123


You might not have gotten to it, but I did post statistics from our "peers" and we fare better than they do in all categories per capita.

Also, I posted a story from right here in my own town from just last week, and there is a popular thread up on ATS from this week about armed citizens thwarting crime.

I can't find the link to another story right now, but I remember a study last year that showed less than 0.1% of gun crimes occurred with legally purchased firearms. In other words, 99.9% of guns owned legally are NEVER used in a crime. I wish I could find that article now, but its getting late, and I'm getting the evil eye from the wife.

And, you are definitely entitled to your opinion, but I found it ironic that you relayed your opinion with such sarcasm and elitism, when I would expect the exact opposite from someone identifying as a "free thinker." You relayed the indoctrinated talking points that are not based in any fact. I just expected more.

Originally posted by Cygnis

Originally posted by freethinker123

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by Emergingtruth

 

I hope it backfires and gun sales in Colorado skyrocket!

Yeah, so more guys like this one can go out and get a weapon to use on innocents?

You know when I hear the debate on guns in the US I see nobody coming up with any solutions, but it takes a huge stretch to think that to reduce mass gun killings the best solution is for more people to be armed.

Completely crazy upside down thinking

I guess the best way to tackle second hand smoke is to get everybody to smoke cigarettes....

Bad people will always be bad people. A leopard CANNOT change it's spots.

Do bad people follow laws? Do bad people care about laws?

No, they do not, is why they are bad people.

Now if bad people do not follow laws, and good people do follow laws... What happens when all the good people give up their guns?

The bad people have guns, and the good people are fodder / easy pickings.

Bad people will get guns no matter what..

No two ways about it.

Well you can call them bad people, I'll call them crazy people but we are on the same page. But do you accept that there are people that become crazy and go on the rampage for reasons known to themselves - that there are cases that these crazies have secured their weapons by legal means? Its early to confirm completely but it seems this guy owned his weapon legally.

So how do you intend to stop this from happening?

I do not accept that bad people will get guns no matter what. Many of these crazies that go beserk are not in the criminal fraternity - they don't have a clue how to find a weapon through illegal channels. They take it from a relatives drawer, they gain it by legal means - guns are available.

If you are talking about habitual criminals then you have a point, they will be able to find a weapon easily using their connections and don't usually go the legal route to get a weapon. But this case isn't about a career criminal, its a mass killing done by a crazy.

Taking a gun from someone elses drawer is not legal. Thats a crime. Dude all you gotta do to buy an illegal gun is go to the gas station in the hood at 2am where hoodlums are standing around bsing with eachother. Ask em. Theyll hook you up with anything....for a fee

reply to post by phroziac


Doesn't even need to be 2 a.m. I've bought a gun from a convenience store clerk in the middle of the afternoon, when all I planned to buy was gas and a hot dog, LOL! And this isn't just a US thing. Guns in Mexico are strictly forbidden, and you can buy one anywhere.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by freethinker123

 

You might not have gotten to it, but I did post statistics from our "peers" and we fare better than they do in all categories per capita.

Also, I posted a story from right here in my own town from just last week, and there is a popular thread up on ATS from this week about armed citizens thwarting crime.

I can't find the link to another story right now, but I remember a study last year that showed less than 0.1% of gun crimes occurred with legally purchased firearms. In other words, 99.9% of guns owned legally are NEVER used in a crime. I wish I could find that article now, but its getting late, and I'm getting the evil eye from the wife.

And, you are definitely entitled to your opinion, but I found it ironic that you relayed your opinion with such sarcasm and elitism, when I would expect the exact opposite from someone identifying as a "free thinker." You relayed the indoctrinated talking points that are not based in any fact. I just expected more.

If by statistics you mean a Reuters article that mentions 'some' of the worst shooting incidents over the past 25 years, which shows that there were more mass killings in the US than other countries, then good for you! Using words such as per capita, doesn't add any weight to your argument, when its based on guesswork on your part though.

If you want to make the oft repeated claim by supporters of the gun lobby that if everybody was armed then gun crime would go down, then by all means list the incidents of a gunman being shot by an armed citizen to prevent a crime. I'm sure the NRA would have already done this, so if the stats aren't out there, it probably means they are not favourable to that argument.

As for the 99.9% statistic, if that were the case what would be the chances that we would be talking about a crazy who reportedly secured his weapon legally? Roughly 1 in a 100, so in 99 other paralell universes we wouldn't be having this conversation...

But thats beside the point really, this isn't an ordinary gun crime where one guy gets shot, this is a mass killing, and there are other cases of mass killings in the US where the crazy secured his weapon legally.

Yeah, ok I'm an elitist - only in the US do they use that term as an insult, do you know what elitism is by the way?

reply to post by freethinker123


Actually, I assumed you had already read the OP much earlier. I was referring to This, This, This, and just for personal touch This.

It does appear this shooter used legally purchased guns, but that is extremely rare. I didn't even bother linking to the post I made about the 12 worst serial killers in the US. Gun usage is fairly rare to serial killers. Or what about one the mos prolific hitmen in the history of the US. The Iceman preferred Cyanide as his method of choice. He carried a gun, but he rarely used it for his murders. The problem with your argument is it is based upon assumptions and talking points instead of facts and statistics.

Originally posted by phroziac
Taking a gun from someone elses drawer is not legal. Thats a crime. Dude all you gotta do to buy an illegal gun is go to the gas station in the hood at 2am where hoodlums are standing around bsing with eachother. Ask em. Theyll hook you up with anything....for a fee

Yeah right I can imagine a crazy nerd, if he knows where to go at all, (and we all know that there have been cases of crazy nerds shooting places up) going up to some hoodlims wanting to get a gun. If he's lucky he'd be laughed at and bitch slapped by the hoods, if not he could be beaten up and robbed.

Think you understood my point though, legal or not, its hell of a lot easier taking a gun from my uncle's drawer.

Originally posted by freethinker123

Originally posted by Cygnis

Originally posted by freethinker123

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by Emergingtruth

 

I hope it backfires and gun sales in Colorado skyrocket!

Yeah, so more guys like this one can go out and get a weapon to use on innocents?

You know when I hear the debate on guns in the US I see nobody coming up with any solutions, but it takes a huge stretch to think that to reduce mass gun killings the best solution is for more people to be armed.

Completely crazy upside down thinking

I guess the best way to tackle second hand smoke is to get everybody to smoke cigarettes....

Bad people will always be bad people. A leopard CANNOT change it's spots.

Do bad people follow laws? Do bad people care about laws?

No, they do not, is why they are bad people.

Now if bad people do not follow laws, and good people do follow laws... What happens when all the good people give up their guns?

The bad people have guns, and the good people are fodder / easy pickings.

Bad people will get guns no matter what..

No two ways about it.

Well you can call them bad people, I'll call them crazy people but we are on the same page. But do you accept that there are people that become crazy and go on the rampage for reasons known to themselves - that there are cases that these crazies have secured their weapons by legal means? Its early to confirm completely but it seems this guy owned his weapon legally.

So how do you intend to stop this from happening?

I do not accept that bad people will get guns no matter what. Many of these crazies that go beserk are not in the criminal fraternity - they don't have a clue how to find a weapon through illegal channels. They take it from a relatives drawer, they gain it by legal means - guns are available.

If you are talking about habitual criminals then you have a point, they will be able to find a weapon easily using their connections and don't usually go the legal route to get a weapon. But this case isn't about a career criminal, its a mass killing done by a crazy.

There is NO way, in our present reality to stop such things.

I, knowing, that there will be no way to remove guns from the world, understand they are a tool of easiest means for either defense, or offense.

That being said, there is no way to know when someone with a few tools in their closet, will crack, and go on a rampage. In instances like that, the best course of action is to put them down like the rabid dogs they are.

This case, Aurora, Colorado, was premeditated, when someone goes on a typical "spree" or goes nuts, it's typically NOT with full body armor, gas grenades, several weapons, helmet, and gas mask..

But, just food for thought, Whats to say someone with a hammer or a sword, or large knife, steel baseball bat, can't accomplish the same thing?

Man and woman with samuri swords go on rampage

How about this list of Asia rampage killers? This list includes Melee, and range.. (Firearms and swords / knives etc). There are a lot more Melee killers on this list then there are Firearms / range weapon killers.

List of Asia Rampage killings

Could you imagine being in a movie theater with some sword-weilding psycho?

Either way, there is no sure-fire way to know when or if someone is going to go out of their mind.

Motto: Always be prepared.

Originally posted by freethinker123
Think you understood my point though, legal or not, its hell of a lot easier taking a gun from my uncle's drawer.

And if you use that gun, and it gets traced back to your uncle, your uncle will possibly face legal charges as well.

Not only that, but that is improper gun storage, imo.

Mine is either with me, or in the safe. locked up. No other proper way to do it. Especially if there are children around.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by freethinker123

 

Actually, I assumed you had already read the OP much earlier. I was referring to This, This, This, and just for personal touch This.

It does appear this shooter used legally purchased guns, but that is extremely rare. I didn't even bother linking to the post I made about the 12 worst serial killers in the US. Gun usage is fairly rare to serial killers. Or what about one the mos prolific hitmen in the history of the US. The Iceman preferred Cyanide as his method of choice. He carried a gun, but he rarely used it for his murders. The problem with your argument is it is based upon assumptions and talking points instead of facts and statistics.

I looked at all your links, but still can't find any evidence or statistics to show that arming everybody would decrease shooting rates. That was your contention that you originally suggested (I'm guessing that you don't want people to be armed because more people will be killed), so I ask again, based on what evidence?

This crime category is one of mass murder, an individual or individuals (who might not have any previous criminal tendencies) who appear to go berserk and mass murder in one spree that continuously goes on then ceases. This is the benchmark to make comparisons with, not a career criminal mafia hitman or Charles Manson etc.