A call to all you bright minds out there - can you solve this dilemma? :)

reply to post by Manula


Define love. Start there. Once you do that, find ways to prove that your definition of love is incomplete. Go back to step 1. Do this over and over until you have a solid definition (or have given up). Once you do this, give a few other people a few whacks at it. Not to improve your definition, but rather to destroy it. If it can withstand that, it is solid, and you can proceed.

I would suspect, then, you would have identified all elements of love, such as accountability. I would suspect that you would have a decent answer.

Or not. Perhaps this is an unsolvable problem. They are known to exist, and have mathmatical basis for proof.

I think Love is what ever makes a person Happy, I feel good emotion, that keeps us wanting more. I dont think you can pinpoint love to a specific, everyone is different and everyone is going to think they know what love is. Love to me is having the utmost respect, integrity, desire, and everything in between that makes a person get up in the morning and want to strive for that next bit of emotion that makes everything OK, even in the darkest of days. Peace out, and Love always

So guys, in short, here is my answer so far:
Unconditional love exists and its not rational.
Choices come from what we want, not from our rational judgement.
I want soccer not rugby. Is this rational? Is there rational judgement here? No, i just want soccer, not rugby, but soccer and rugby are equally lovable.
So in reality, choices are made from our inner wanting, our inner voice that comes from our soul that says: go that way...
This will that comes from our soul is our true guide in the great choices and its not rational at all.
So, inner will (choices) and unconditional love are compatible because they are both irrational, they don't come from a deductive thinking, they don't origin in reason or logic, they can easily live together, dilemma solved.

What do you guys think of this?

I know we try to reason our choices but preference is not that rational, it comes from within, its your soul commanding, it comes from your unconscious mind. Your conscious mind stands in the way most of the times, rationalizing your wanting, your choices.

Granted. I can say i want to be nice to people because its right. I can give a logic explanation. But why do i want to do the right thing? Where does this wanting to do the right thing comes from? I could want to do bad. A lot of people want it, they dont care and they can explain it logically. Is it rational? No.

I am not really sure of this, but i am exploring it.

Your thoughts?

reply to post by DaTroof


Love is one of the basic compound's that was placed into the crucible that cooked and created life - among other things.

Great thread friend, thanks for the read.

Peace

K

unconditional love to 1 Manula means that those that you have CHOSEN to LOVE you love without condition. Meaning you LOVE them as much as you can, but HOPE that your open heart * compassion is not taken advantage of or for granted by those loved by YOU unconditionally. The ability to FORGIVE is RELATED to what I think your OP is about. Forgiveness is part of the force of unconditional love.

It comes into play with me specifically when considering there may have been ignorance done to others and 1 in the DISTANT PAST. And over the times 1z SOUL may have rebelled say in past 3d lives. REBELLED with so much RAGE and AGGRESSION and YES HATE that those 1 may have rebelled against my have began to seem less DESTRUCTIVE then 1, due to the rebellion being so deep within, so deep within that it managed to possibly SPAN multiple lifetimes. ALWAYS the same ENERGY. ENERGY designed to OPPOSE an OPPRESSOR with FORCE or REFLECT the OPPRESSORS ENERGY BACK UPON IT. Oppressor would use ignorance weapons to control and uncomfortable technologies to study - 1 would go PULSAR on a planet LIKE MARS after being forced from 3d existence and the RAGE PULLING ME RIGHT BACK.

[color=gold] So to 1 the unconditional LOVE FACTOR says 2 wrongs DON'T MAKE A RIGHT for even if the oppressors became repressed the SAME IGNORANCE cycle of enslavement occurs just from the past oppressors becoming the NEW oppressed and who ever becoming KING OVER them oppressing them ect. WHICH IN TURNS STILL GENERATES THE SAME FAIL/NEGATIVE ENERGY FROM THIS REALM - SO THE WHO IS THE KING OF DARK GETS WHAT IT WANTS, IF NOT A PRIZE FOR HAVING THE OPPRESSOR ENERGIES NOW UNDER ITS COMMANDS AND DRAINS INSTEAD OF LESS CONCENTRATED OPPRESSED ENERGIES [/COLOR] See where I am going with this IT just wants energy to feed from regardless of the PROVIDER of the ENERGY oppressed or oppressor. So 1 had to LEARN not TO ACT AS THOSE WHO MAY HAVE ACTED NEGATIVELY UPON ME. Which brings us up to 1z current mind state obtained within this lifetime by friends of the ATS memberships FRIENDS OF LIGHT . These ATS friends have helped me to see those who may of oppressed or acted ignorantly as FAMILY ( am I being deceived, hmmmm or is this a question for another to ask) Ok but yes these friends helped me to see that those who may have behaved ignorantly or evol to this herd ARE STILL FAMILY and I fought with that for some time [color=gold]MY SOUL WANTED TO SEEK THEM AND ATTACK THEM, YES THEY CAN ATTACK MY 3D BODY perhaps, perhaps BUT THE REAL BATTLE WITH ME IS ALWAYS IN SOUL FORM WHERE THEY WHO DECEIVE ARE MORE SOLID/feel able, ironic.

I was like well if they were ignorant TO US then why not PRACTICE SOUL STRENGTH METHODS via meditation/astral/obe ect. practices and SOULWAR training methods with DEMONS of EA*RTH in order to better understand the minds of an oppressor and the effects of demonic TEMPTATIONS that can weaken a soul preventing it the need or want to return the ignorance distributed. [color=gold] I had to somewhat become like one. TO redistribute the ignorance back IN WAR FORM or TOTAL DESTRUCTION. They the FAMILY related to LIGHTS* helped me to see this type of thinking may in turn switch my FREQUENCY of LIGHT* into DARK due to me being able to behave or VIBRATE as destructive as they may been have to this herds souls. WHICH in turn keeps the KINGDOM of DARK STRONG as it OBSERVES ELDER ENERGIES THAT HAVE AVOIDED ITS HOME/CAPTURE BEING SENT TO IT FOR DRAINING OR ADJUSTMENT BY 1 OR MANY.

SO I LEARNED not to feed this DARK kingdom (as much THAT IS) WITH ITS WAYS AND LOVE / UNCONDITIONAL LOVE HAS SUPPORTED me not feeding that kingdom for now. FEEDING IT EVOL ENERGIES THAT HAVE CONCENTRATED NEGATIVE ENERGY WITHIN THEM DUE TO THEIR TORMENT AND DESTRUCTION PLACED UPON OTHER CREATOR CREATIONS. THEY DON'T EVEN REALIZE THEY THE warlords/evol dictators/species controllers, from displacing so much innocent or neutral (ANIMAL) energy THEY HAVE BECAME THE NEW TARGET OR FOOD.... Think about it if your species feeds off of negative vibrations who would taste best the innocent souls FORCED to behave ignorant due to responding to ignorance or those who have killed many and seen many die and felt good it wasn't them (LIKE KONY) THEY ARE THE BEST TASTING SOULS FOR THIS DARKNESS (IF THEY ONLY KNEW) They distribute EVOL and FEAR it MOST they look into the eyes of soon to be killed children and women and smile internally feeling like well its not me and don't know what flies above their souls waiting for them to ripe with ignorance so they can be DRAINED/VAMPYRED from...

This is how I feel UNCONDITIONAL LOVE WORKS. It allows you to see IGNORANCE and MISTAKES and INTENTS MADE AGAINST YOU BY OTHERS and then PROVIDES the SPACE to EVALUATE. Space to evaluate if those who distributed past ignorance DESERVE to be UNCONDITIONALLY LOVED or WARED with.

So now 1 seeks PEACE/LOVE and HOPE that others due as well in HOPE that WE ALL* can ADVANCE into a UNCONDITIONAL LOVE WAY OF EXISTENCE. LOVE ME AS YOU WOULD WANT ME TO LOVE YOU, you know

NAMASTE
LOVE LIGHT ETERNIA*******

reply to post by Ophiuchus 13


I got it.

You can see that those that do harm are in reality, on a soul level, doing harm to themselves, so you can unconditional love them too because, although they may seem like aggressors, they are victims too, but of themselves. So in reality there are no aggressors. Everyone living the dark side is a victim.

I agree. So you can rationally love those who vibrate in low levels because they are like bad students, they don't learn, and who is to blame? They didn't made themselves... Why are they like that? Why cant they get out of it? Who knows...

Can you love fear? If you love fear, although you feel fear, you also feel love, how can this be? lolol

But there are people that love pain, fear, even sadness, there are people that love to suffer, they love to suffer and they love not to suffer.

Come one this is insane but... is this possible? I think it is...

If you can love everything, when you are in pain just love it, problem solved.
Not only accept it but love it, its good to be in pain. Problem solved. Is this rational? No, but who cares...

Wishes and personal preferences are not rational too...

Love it all, love fear, love hate, choices are not rational too... So what are we doing here?

reply to post by Manula


Unconditional love is a new age BS that came to existence for the sole purpose of misleading people and hell it worked. People that follow this ahem -subjective way of thinking for weaklings- become apathetic to everything and no longer fight since they LOVE it. Internet allowed it to spread like a virus.. Thats why i call it a double edged sword. Magnificent potential to inform and teach but at the same time, to mislead, condition and brainwash. And of course the latter is always the most common, why i wonder..

There is no such thing as unconditional love. It needs to be abolished along with soulmate and "you complete me".

reply to post by _damon


You can love a situation and still fight it...

Why? Because you want to fight it. Can you fight something you love? Of course.

Its not rational my friend, but its true.

Example: You see your dog running to kill a cat.. You love your dog, you love the cat, you even love the fact that your dog is running for the cat, it means that he is alive and well, he is being himself, full of life and passion, that's just the way he is, but you still don't want the cat killed.

So you stop it. You avoid it. There is only love here my friend, but you still took action.

Love didn't made you soft and blind, you took action, you did what you wanted to do.

reply to post by Manula


Our justice system privents us from learning how to love anyone who has commited a crime.
Over time our justice system has tought us to blame and punish the person(s) who have done the crime.

We don't know how to punish a crime; how do we do that?
We only know how to punsish the person who commits the crime.

reply to post by Manula


Unconditional love is not about NOT choosing one thing from another thing. It's about not putting conditions on who and/or what you will love. It's removing the "why" from the matter. I love my daughter regardless of what she does or doesn't do. I can easily make that claim about my grandbabies too, but that's because they're children, and children are readily forgiven due to their innocence and lack of judgment. My daughter is 32 yrs old, and this makes it harder to be unconditional with my love for her, because she's an adult who is fully capable of choosing to respect me or disrespect me with her choices and behavior. And yet, my own love for her is unconditional, and this reflects the fact that it (my love for her) is both a reaction to her and a determination of my own. It's a clear-minded decision that I choose to give her my love regardless of the conditions that emerge within my relationship with her.

Agape Love is closer to what you're describing, but even then, this universal self-less love is not about refusing to choose. It IS a choice, and is also a very deliberate, clear-minded choice. Not a reaction.

Your dilemma is that you simply don't understand what you are examining. There is no form of love that requires that a person not make a choice. I'm not really sure what it is that you've decided to tear into here, but it's not unconditional love. Maybe it's that weird Namaste sh*t, but if it is, then I have no idea how anyone squares that particular circle. To me, it's just philosophical navel gazing and nothing more.

Originally posted by Manula
I know most of you have heard about unconditional love.

It means that we must be able to love it all. All people, all situations, all emotions, thats right, love all of existence, love good and bad, love fear and courage, love love and hate, love sadness and joy, love the killer and the victim, love the victim and the aggressor, love what we did good and what we did bad... Why? Because we are all one, we are everything, every person, every situation, every emotion. All is existence, and we are all one.

But if we are suppose to do this how do we make choices? Why free-will then?
If its all good, then we dont need to choose anything, we can be choiseless zombies, wondering around.

Do i eat chocolate or a fruit? Do i go to the cinema or do i stay home? Do i leave my job or do i stick with it? Do i write a thread or stay quiet? Do i treat people right, or can be i be a selfish prick? Do i yell or stay calm? Do i go ahead with vengeance or do i forgive and forget?

Choices? It doesnt matter, i love it all, all is loved, all is worthy of love, so choices don't mean anything...

This is the dilema, what do you make of it?

I will answer too but not right now.

I think we all struggle(d) with this concept but off course there must be an answer to this.

Thanks for your attention.

I am one of the most, if not the most spiritual person in this entire forum therefore I have all the best answers to all your questions.

Firstly, you have many flaws in your understanding of Love and Oneness, which is the main reason you have much misunderstandings of many thing.

You must understand what is the possible meaning of Love. The meaning of loving something is different from liking something. The meaning of love is to accept the existence of certain things, so as not to deny and hate the existence of such things. Liking something however, is to find that something is compatible to you. Hating something is to find that it is not compatible.

Everything is connected as one whole. But as individual souls, we are separate. We are therefore not everything, we are not every person, we are not every situation, we are not every emotion. Therefore, we can only love/accept the existence of all things but not like all things. It is not possible to find everything to be compatible to oneself.

love is to accept the existence of something as it already is
unconditional love is to accept the existence of something no matter how it is

I hope you understand. Please ask me for more clarifications if you don't. Because this is such a silly and superficial misunderstanding that many people fall into.

Now moving on to explain the soul's ability of 'choice'.

The soul came to experience the physical plane that has lots of limitations. Each soul desires to experience a certain level of limitations at certain moments in its life, which leads to what its human self would eventually choose to experience in its life.

The soul's expression of its desire to experience certain level of limitations is its 'free-will'.

If the soul desires to experience a high level of restriction, then it would desire to experience stress from a job. If it desires to experience a low level of restriction, then it would desire to experience peace by quitting it. Therefore, based on the soul's desire to experience certain levels of limitations, it can like and dislike the level of limitations found in different things, based on whether the level of limitations in different things would suits its liking or not.

reply to post by NorEaster


Maybe you didn't understand my point.

Love unconditionally - love always, no matter what it is, how it feels etc etc

So when you have to make choices you cant do them out of love because you love it all, A or B is loved you dont choose A or B because you love on of them more than the other.

How do you choose? You choose out of will, not out of love.

Between A and B you choose A not because you love A more than B, but because you want A more than B.

Inner will is not a rational force so it is not in conflict with another irrational force (love).

Did you get it now?

This resumes my apparent dilemma.

Originally posted by Manula
reply to post by NorEaster

 

Maybe you didn't understand my point.

Love unconditionally - love always, no matter what it is, how it feels etc etc

So when you have to make choices you cant do them out of love because you love it all, A or B is loved you dont choose A or B because you love on of them more than the other.

How do you choose? You choose out of will, not out of love.

Between A and B you choose A not because you love A more than B, but because you want A more than B.

Inner will is not a rational force so it is not in conflict with another irrational force (love).

Did you get it now?

This resumes my apparent dilemma.

Love MUST be defined first. I do not believe that you and I agree on what love is.

Originally posted by Manula
reply to post by NorEaster

 

Maybe you didn't understand my point.

Love unconditionally - love always, no matter what it is, how it feels etc etc

So when you have to make choices you cant do them out of love because you love it all, A or B is loved you dont choose A or B because you love on of them more than the other.

How do you choose? You choose out of will, not out of love.

Between A and B you choose A not because you love A more than B, but because you want A more than B.

Inner will is not a rational force so it is not in conflict with another irrational force (love).

Did you get it now?

This resumes my apparent dilemma.

the term un conditional love comes from the spirit world so it's difficult at best to associate it in the physical realm. if you subscribe to the spirit world and souls, reincarnation, working towards a higher learning and existence the un conditional love would be what we have when not living a life as someone somewhere.

my view on this life we live is that it's a way to experience things without our spiritual understanding and knowledge, without our un conditional love present, at least not consciously anyway. how else really could we experience pain, forgiveness, a frosty morning, a sweltering afternoon, the sunrise, crooked politicians and so on if we brought our unconditional spiritual love with us during a lifetime.

some may say then well i guess what we do here doesn't matter if when we die we have un conditional love waiting for us. although true to a degree, my belief is that we have a yearning to evolve as souls and after so many lifetimes i'm sure being an ass hat would even get boring and be painful to ourselves. so evolve we do and no longer have a desire for such things.

you could be the bad kid in school and fail as many grades as you like and you will still be loved although you will remain in the same grade until you change your ways. no ones left behind, they just have a choice on how long they wish to experience the same grade.

reply to post by Manula


If you find it hard to differentiate the different qualities in 2 different things in order to prefer one over the other, then you have to experience more and gain the sensitivity in order to perceive the inner differing qualities in different things. It is your own duty to be more sensitive to detect diverse qualities.

reply to post by timerty


I don't think you the so called master of spirituality get it.
To accept the existence is quite different than loving it.
Some things are not wanted, they are not loved but they are accepted.
Its not the same.

As for free will and desire, you got it wrong too.

Lets suppose your soul (unconscious mind) wants to live an experience of sickness, she will learn a lot from it.
But the conscious mind, the conscious body-soul complex doesn't want sickness at all.
So from your unconscious will come wishes and desires that will lead you to sickness, but the conscious mind doesn't know she is heading for sickness.

An example: the conscious mind sees a girl but she doesn't know she has a transmittable disease. The unconscious mind knows and she wants that disease. So from the unconscious mind comes the desire to have sex with that girl. The conscious mind receives that desire so she wants to have sex but she thinks its to have a good time. She is being fooled by the unconscious mind. The conscious mind in response to that desire decides to have sex with her and gets the disease. Bingo. The unconscious mind wanted that disease and manipulated the conscious mind to get it. How? Gave her that desire to have sex with that specific girl. If the conscious mind knew what was the purpose of that desire she would be terrified.

This is how it works. A little different than what you said.

So if we knew the soul purpose of all our wishes, wantings and desires, sometimes we would be terrified.

Lord works in mysterious ways remember?

Our soul is in command and she will manipulate the conscious mind to get what she wants.

So back to the topic, decisions come mostly from the unconscious mind (our soul) because she is living this flesh experience, and she is the one who knows what is to be lived.
The conscious mind, don't have a clue and is being manipulated most of the time.
That´s where our wishes, wantings and desires come from, the unconscious mind, and they are not rational to the conscious mind.

Got it great master?

Originally posted by Manula
If its all good, then we dont need to choose anything, we can be choiseless zombies, wondering around.

I know this is a spelling mistake, and doesn't really warrant a response, but I really like the idea of wondering around for some reason.

reply to post by Manula

I can unconditionally love everyone and yet punish somebody for harming another.

Don't think in black and white.

By "unconditionally love" I mean that I assume there's a physical reason for things and that our mind is physical too. I assume there's no supernatural origin and that we're a result of physical and chemical processes. There's no mysterious soul. So a murderer to me is a set of physical and chemical processes. When I see a person, I see a experiment. To me, the whole world is an experiment. It's like some fantastic lab in Frankstein's mind. And yet in all of this observation I get a tickling of love. It's slight, not excessive. But I still feel it. I wonder if the reason I feel it is because I have not myself experienced TRUE hate? What if a mad man killed someone I deeply loved, for example? Should I not then feel hate towards them and not love? I am not sure. Right now, everything to me is just a physical and chemical process and the love I feel is a side effect somehow.

One other thing is that I feel our universe is a very tough circumstance. Nature murders more lifeforms in a short time than all the humans on the earth. Nature is a mass murderer! So I sort of feel like we're all prisoners here trying to live because we're afraid of dying. In that sense, to me, we're all hurting. And that evokes a feeling of sorrow and compassion because we all share this in common.

And yet nature is in each of us. We're tainted and inseparable.

I think the love I feel is a cry of desperation to the abyss, to the void, to the senselessness. I tell myself it should be impossible for me to feel this way since nature might prefer to lie to itself, not be truthful. Either that or I have lied to myself somehow and have been misled into thinking I am seeing a truth. It'd make sense for nature to make me think I am seeing a truth. I know I am not the first person to think these thoughts. This was foreseen. Yet maybe even nature sometimes looks at itself honestly, without the usual prejudice towards survival. Maybe it only does this occasionally. Nature might have a policy of sometimes breaking the rules, but not in a way that hampers its plans for itself. Anyway, I'm beating around the bush. These questions are probably unanswerable.

You know that phrase about loving the person but not the deed? That's how it's.

Lastly, sometimes I wonder if this life is a test. To die early is to pass the test. What do I mean by this? I mean that to die early is to recognize that our universe is a murderer. And since it lives inside us and we're tainted by its ways, we cannot live without becoming its accomplice.

Originally posted by Manula
But is there a dilemma? How do you solve it?

I don't see the dilemma. You're basically taking a universal outlook (unconditional love) and applying it to all the various minutia of life. Just because you love everthing doesn't mean you can't prefer a taco right now over a slice of pie. Wanting to spend time with one person doesn't diminish your love for everybody else.

So, yeah, no dilemma to solve.