Can't We Have an Even-handed Discussion About the Holocaust?

reply to post by callahan


I do not belong to any organization. I'm looking for the truth in my spare time. I read your forum for about two years. Promoted them in our country. I have never written on this forum, until yesterday, when I saw that you do not know the documents and discover the truth about the Holocaust, and did not know anything except those fiction of 6 million ... I have a lot of material on this subject, but censored them here, on your forum. While in our country can freely write about it. And I thought it was in our country restricts freedom of expression. Farewell, I leave it lying and divorced from reality forum. Here you only know how to write about what is completely irrelevant.

Admin, immediately delete my account!!!

Those who what to seek the truth, search for almanac 1938-1945, jewish nation in numbers...

Originally posted by nake13
As you say the document only relates to those who were recorded as passing thru the camps,and as such does not record accurately the numbers who were exterminated.Now to change this around,what basis in fact is there for accepting the commonly quoted figure of 6 million deaths? I mean.if accurate records were not kept.how were those who arrived at the figure of 6 million able to confirm that number?

To clarify, what I said was the document that callahan linked to was a record of the index cards pertaining to files held by Bad Arolsen of those admitted to concentrations camps who are confirmed to have died.

In addition to Bad Arolsen, which holds all the concentration camp files that survived the war, there are several other archives of documents pertaining to the concentration camps, and to the transports 'East'. These include, as I already mentioned, the records of those transported, and the records of the individual ghettos. Most of the transportation records, were held centrally in Berlin, these were captured by the US Army and are held at the NARA. Ghetto records are much more spread out. There is currently no single source or rather resource that brings all the figures together. Other archives were captured by the Red Army and by the British Army, which unlike the US and Bad Arolsen, have not made significant attempts to catalogue or allow free access to the records that they seized.

The figure of six million came from the Germans themselves. Recent scholarly investigation has found it to be a reasonably accurate figure and has broken it down to around 4.5 million Jews being murdered specifically for being Jewish and further 1.5 million Jews who were killed during the operations of the Einzatsgruppen primarly for being Slavs. 2 million non-Jews were also killed during those operations.

The files for individual Jews departing Berlin, and other occupied territories are fairly self-explanatory, but they are not entirely complete. Where the transportee ended up at a concentration camp there is a file at that destination, and if they were further transferred after admittance, that too is detailed. If a transportee was sent 'East' there is no such record, that person simply drops off the face of the earth. Similarly with the ghetto records, transportation is recorded in Berlin, arrival is recorded at the ghetto and so on and so forth...if they are recorded as being transported and if they later arrived at a camp that is recorded, if they were transported and there is no record of arrival...etc etc.

In terms of the actions of the Einsatzgruppen there was very little record other than numbers, no names, unless certain persons were specified (each of the Einsatzgruppen sonderkommando were issued with a pre-printed list of specified targets), these reports of numbers murdered at each locale were wired direct to Berlin. It is likely, given that at this point that Ultra had been cracked, that these wires were intercepted by Britain at GCHQ, however to date, Britain has not admitted to such. And it is possible that even if they were intercepted that they remain unencrypted as Ultra decrypts were carried out on a priority basis.

Some links to further information about archives and other such records....

www.jewishgen.org...

www.jewishgen.org...

www.deathcamps.org...

www.scrapbookpages.com...

www.ushmm.org...

reply to post by callahan


There is no need for drama, if you have something to present do so. The document that you presented though, as I explained, comes from the archives at Bad Arolsen, and is an overview of the confirmed deaths of those people who were admitted to the camp and were issued with a number and corresponding index card. I translated the German, it says as much in black and white, and also, I know, as anyone with Google also has the capacity to find out, what records are held at Bad Arolsen. This is not rocket science.

So please, refrain from the hissy fit, and demonstrate your credibility, if you have any. You will find no-one easily fooled here, whatever performance you may be inclined to put on.

reply to post by Biliverdin


If the figure of six million came from the Germans themselves, then please provide the link that makes reference to the official announcement. If there was no official announcement, then what you meant was that the total figure was derived from German data. Okay. Who did the calculating?

You missed an earlier post by me whereby I describe how David Irving got access to classified decrypted Ultra intercepts from SS concentration camp commanders back to SS headquarters describing each day's statistics in terms of additions and subtractions from the camp inmate totals. Millions of jews killed would have meant that on average, thousands had to have died each day. Irving says that the decoded intercepts show numbers that are much lower and in a lot of cases were single digits. If we were to assume a 100 a day on average for all the camps in total, then we would get a number that is pretty close to the 357,000 that the Red Cross came up with.

Originally posted by Studenofhistory
reply to post by Biliverdin

 

If the figure of six million came from the Germans themselves, then please provide the link that makes reference to the official announcement. If there was no official announcement, then what you meant was that the total figure was derived from German data. Okay. Who did the calculating?

I think that you will find that data in the transcripts of the Nuremberg Trials. As well as the Eichmann Trial transcripts in which it was to some extent corroborated. Both are available on line I should imagine. Russell's The Scourge of the Swastika was the first 'official' history of the Nazi war crimes and uses those figures compiled from the Nuremberg Trials and from the testimony of the accused. The figures given for the transports, slave labour, and concentration camps are supplied in Chapters five to six (pages 139 to 225) and the Final Solution is detailed in Chapter Seven (pages 226 to 250). Chapter Two deals with POW murders, and Chapter Four with the killing squads in the occupied territories (but is not particularly detailed, due to the sparcity of those defendents - if you are interested, an excellent book on the Einzatsgruppen actions is Masters of Death by John Rhodes, but that is a contemporary one, but incredibly documentary intensive, amazing in depth piece of research, well worth the read).

The central Berlin records of the camps were taken by the US and were not immediately made available to researchers, but have since been made available. Those records captured by the Soviets were not even made available to the tribunal, and the British were somewhat selective in the distribution of the records that they captured.

Originally posted by Studenofhistory
You missed an earlier post by me whereby I describe how David Irving got access to classified decrypted Ultra intercepts from SS concentration camp commanders back to SS headquarters describing each day's statistics in terms of additions and subtractions from the camp inmate totals. Millions of jews killed would have meant that on average, thousands had to have died each day. Irving says that the decoded intercepts show numbers that are much lower and in a lot of cases were single digits. If we were to assume a 100 a day on average for all the camps in total, then we would get a number that is pretty close to the 357,000 that the Red Cross came up with.

I would consider it highly unlikely that Irving could get his hands on such a thing, and that such documents would contradict those held by central administration in Germany. Besides, there were no communications of the Aktion Reinhard murders, by Himmler's orders, so those wouldn't have been sent by Ultra anyway, all those reports, according to testimony, was passed by hand or often orally. The Eisatzgruppen communicated their 'kills' by radio, but those deaths were less controversial to the home crowd.

However that aside, I would be grateful if you could post the source and page number for that information, as I have a specific interest in Ultra decrypts and would like to check that out. Thanks.

Originally posted by Biliverdin
an excellent book on the Einzatsgruppen actions is Masters of Death by John Rhodes, but that is a contemporary one, but incredibly documentary intensive, amazing in depth piece of research, well worth the read).

Just browsing my bookshelves...it is by Richard Rhodes, not John. Apologies.

reply to post by Biliverdin


hello this is my first ever post,
ive always found it worrying that of the 50 million estimated deaths during ww2
we always seem to only hear about jewish deaths.
are the russian,gypsy,trade unionist,british,american,german and countless others who lost their lives not as worthy of rememberance as the jews?
even if 6million jews did die, what about the other 44million ?

I've asked that of Jewish friends, most of whom say, "That's different. Millions of people die in wars. But the death of Jewish people was unique and an unprecedented tragedy, because they were killed in an effort to wipe out their religion."
The answer is total hogwash, of course, but it is the mandatory mindset. Lurking not far behind it is the assumption that only Jews are humans, and that the rest of us are just animals, whose deaths are meaningless. A few Jewish authors have openly stated as much, but it's a position they carefully guard from public disclosure.

Cf. The recent book by Rabbi Saadya Grama, published in Hebrew under the title "Romemut Yisrael Ufarashat Hagalut," which can be translated in several ways, including "The Grandeur [or Superiority] of Israel and the Question of Exile." This quote references a Jewish newspaper's description of the book's contents, "In its December 19 article, the Forward reported that "Romemut Yisrael" describes gentiles as "completely evil," constituting an inferior "species.""

Originally posted by erictcartman
reply to post by Biliverdin

 

hello this is my first ever post,
ive always found it worrying that of the 50 million estimated deaths during ww2
we always seem to only hear about jewish deaths.
are the russian,gypsy,trade unionist,british,american,german and countless others who lost their lives not as worthy of rememberance as the jews?
even if 6million jews did die, what about the other 44million ?

I never quite understand this argument, I suppose it depends on where you come from, and your age. It is only recently, in the UK, that there has been much talk, education wise about the Holocaust. I certainly was never taught it in school. We did the first world war, didn't even touch on the Second, let alone the Holocaust. I only learnt about it because I have a rather morbid curiousity about such things. And I certainly don't remember any memorial services for the Holocaust, until rather recently, on the otherhand, every 11/11 on the 11th hour, we remembered the war dead in silence.

I think that as with most things, it depends upon what you look for. In the city that I live, there are several memorials commemorating those that lost their lives in conflicts. Same goes for most towns and cities. And there are similar memorials for those who died in the holocaust, at the Holocaust Museums and the such like. I suppose, the Gypsies, the Trade Unionists, etc, are less physically remembered simply because in some cases, there is no actual body to remember them. Particularly with those that died in the East, also, who fell behind the Iron Curtain, such remembrance wasn't possible either, because of the difficulties that they were having to endure in the present.

In short, I don't think that there is an easy answer to your question, other than to say that it depends upon any number of agendas and motives as to who gets remembered and who doesn't, and of course, if there is anyone to remember at all.

the answer is NO if you want to write or publish anything on this period you will end up in jail or dead in some countries but it is ok to research any other period in history

reply to post by geobro


That's bollocks! Those that have been imprisoned, have been for inciting hatred, not for carrying out legitimate research.

The only real exception, in my opinion, is Norman Finkelstein, who while not imprisoned, has been occupationally penalised for suggesting that some people are profiteering from the suffering of the Jews. A legitimate claim in my opinion. Both deniers, and excessive promoters, are guilty of that accusation. In the middle though, there is considerable historical equiry that genuinely seeks to find the balance of truth, often fending off criticism from the delusions of both sides.

Originally posted by Biliverdin
reply to post by geobro

 

That's bollocks! Those that have been imprisoned, have been for inciting hatred, not for carrying out legitimate research.

The only real exception, in my opinion, is Norman Finkelstein, who while not imprisoned, has been occupationally penalised for suggesting that some people are profiteering from the suffering of the Jews. A legitimate claim in my opinion. Both deniers, and excessive promoters, are guilty of that accusation. In the middle though, there is considerable historical equiry that genuinely seeks to find the balance of truth, often fending off criticism from the delusions of both sides.

seem to remember a university prof in poland who wrote a paper on this being found dead in his car after being sacked the prof had managed to move his car while decomposing ? to you

Originally posted by geobro
seem to remember a university prof in poland who wrote a paper on this being found dead in his car after being sacked the prof had managed to move his car while decomposing ? to you

To me, what?

You might have once read something...well whoopee doo for you

Originally posted by Biliverdin

Originally posted by geobro
seem to remember a university prof in poland who wrote a paper on this being found dead in his car after being sacked the prof had managed to move his car while decomposing ? to you

To me, what?

You might have once read something...well whoopee doo for you

sounds like deny ignorance to me ps to me to you was the CHUCKLE BROTHERS [uk humor ] catch phrase when throwing a ball to each other

reply to post by geobro


Do the Chuckle Brothers count as humour?

But still, that you may remember having heard about some Polish guy ending up dead, does not exactly constitute evidence of your point.

Originally posted by Biliverdin
reply to post by geobro

 

Do the Chuckle Brothers count as humour?

But still, that you may remember having heard about some Polish guy ending up dead, does not exactly constitute evidence of your point.
what counts as evidence then ? sounds like you have made your mind up on this subject & yes the chuckle brothers were funny

edit on 8-8-2012 by Biliverdin because: plural...Barry and Paul

Originally posted by erictcartman
reply to post by Biliverdin

 

hello this is my first ever post,
ive always found it worrying that of the 50 million estimated deaths during ww2
we always seem to only hear about jewish deaths.
are the russian,gypsy,trade unionist,british,american,german and countless others who lost their lives not as worthy of rememberance as the jews?
even if 6million jews did die, what about the other 44million ?

edit on 8-8-2012 by erictcartman because: im new and messed up first post

no, you do not "only hear about jewish deaths"....the others ARE ALWAYS mentioned in every history book and archival record. the reason you keep "hearing" about jewish death "totals" is because it is always being brought up as being fictional. general Dwight D. Eisenhower (a republican) ordered hundreds of hours or film shot of the death camps, as well as thousands of photographs, and thousands of page of documents related to the holocaust...why?...take a look at this site...it is in plain english
www.awesomestories.com...

reply to post by geobro


Well a link to the story would be sufficient...

To be even-handed, here is a link to a story about Norman Finkelstein...

news.bbc.co.uk...

And another about him losing his job...

nymag.com...

thanks for the replies.
i honestly feel that there has been a well orchestrated campaign over the years to portray jewish deaths to be of greater significance than any other deaths during ww2.
this is a grave injustice to everyone else who died.
i think it says a lot that anyone who dares question this attitude gets labeled antisemite
or even jailed.i think the answer to the original posters
question is no unfortunately