On Lies of Aztec Human Sacrifice

Originally posted by BIHOTZ
reply to post by SevenThunders

 

You have allot to learn. what you have been told....is a lie,

Yes they had sacrifice like your culture did as well. You are not a heathen that deserves to be eliminated....Right?

Why judge them without READING the source material or witness accounts. Why trust someone else's opinion?

edit on 20-7-2012 by BIHOTZ because: (no reason given)

I judge accurately in this case. Human sacrifice, practiced on innocent and unwilling subjects is wrong. I hope that is self evident. Moreover I trust the results of the electron microscope scan on the aborigine knives. They prove beyond a doubt the existence of human blood sacrifice.

I do not trust the vague feeling that the Spaniards must be wrong, cuz well they are scum according to all modern revisions of our history texts. This is not an acceptable way to establish facts, basing it on Marxist political propaganda, started by KGB agents going back before the 1960s (per the Venona papers).

reply to post by Alexander2533


Very interesting thread OP, yeah, I think its rather odd story to think about an advance civilization, who were capable building large zigurats and cities, to do such rituals. Beheadings and ripping hearts alike. They did it both of them? Really? Come on....

Although there is not a closed possibility they never did it in small scale. All I say is, there is always a possibility. But the possibility of a small Spanish fleet conquering an entire Ameroindian civilization is also questionable. And black propaganda, like that one about slavery being used by Lincoln, seems to be something of common use to justify warfare. Not to mention weapons of mass destruction in the Iraqi war. Oh i just did......

Just look at the propaganda posters they made in the 2nd world war. Rediculous, they could sell that as a Darkhorse comic series, already.

So, I think it makes sense that Cortez needed a moral issue to support Vaticans campaign. Afterall they came in the name of Catholicism and Jesus, they pronounciated it out loud. To conquer barbaric tribes and convert them to creed god. Read as: to conquer other rich civilizations to rob off their natural wealth, in the end. S & F for you OP.

reply to post by SevenThunders


first off,.....no one is justifying ritual human sacrifice...we are not insane.

Second....ask a scholar who has been in the field lately. This is what science supports. Our history books have not been revised fast enough to catch up to what people in the know, know.

You can try and demonize them all you want. An agenda is self evident to make them seem dumb and animalistic. BIAS MUCH?

Enjoy your rant to follow.


EDIT:
BY the way....I am the most ANTI_COMMUNIST person I know. My family fought against them during the Spanish civil war. I know of their danger from my family memory like scars of abuse and violation.

ADD:
Not all sacrifices were of prisoners and the unwilling. Some cultures there and all over the planet considered certain sacrifices an honor. In some cases reserved only for the elite.

Euthanasia comes to mind for us. Are we heathens or acting out of noble values? Hot debate there. Why so sure about this with them?

reply to post by Alexander2533


Cortez mainly won the war because he got the tlaxcala to join in the fight. Plus of course small pox. Also obsidian blades are sharp enough that they are used as scalpels in surgery, so there goes that argument, the point of sacrafice is not to save the patient it is to kill the patient or get what they want. So, all the priest would have done was break the skin, then break the sternum locate the heart and cut it out. The shock would keep the heart due to sudden transplant. The prisoners were sentenced to death meaning they were killed by sacrifice.

reply to post by coyote66


Just because a city has nice building does not mean they don't have skeletons in the closet. It's somewhat illogical to compare scientific advances with then a higher sense of morality.

Think about this, if you brought a machine gun and a bullet proof vest to a colonial battle. You would be surprised how long you would live and how many you would kill. It's essentially the same thing with the Spaniards. They walked in with steel weapons and armor, plus gunpowder based weapons. The aztecs had obsidian and leather-like armor. The clear advantage went to Spain overwhelmingly, the aztecs lost the war because of extreme technological disadvantage. It's not out of line to think a small force with machine guns would beat a large force woth muskets. So its not out of line to think a small force with steel would be beat a large force with leather.

reply to post by BIHOTZ


So your family fought for the Nazi backed Franco fransisco forces then? I'm just curious because I thought it was basically Russian backed forces against German backed forces.

This thread is complete nonsense.
The decapitated bodies of sacrificed victims have been found in the foundations of Aztec temples. There is no doubt they practiced sacrifice and did so with zeal. The reason Cortez was able to destroy their civilization was because the other local tribes were more than willing to side with him and provide the manpower he lacked.

Obviously the OP has a personnel connection to the Aztecs. I speculate its because he is decended from them. I understand a reluctance to accept that reality. If you want to debate the numbers then fine thats a very good point of contention. I doubt the numbers killed were as high as has been presented. I suspect that was exageration by the local tribes the Spanish questioned. It could also be inflation on the part of the Spanish.
The Aztecs killed. Not only did they kill they did so with gusto. They did it for religious and social reasons. They killed prisioners. They killed their own children and their own citizens. They did it because they thought they were saving the world from destruction. Fine what ever. Who cares it was 450 years ago. 2000years ago my ancestors did the same thing. Get over it

You somehow think that a civilization that practiced such sacrafice had no other contribution. You seem to think that people are so unsophisticated that they cannot see a city that can offer both great culture and great pain and suffering. In reality its not that others cannot see this its that YOU cannot see this.

Open your eyes and look at New York city.

reply to post by Alexander2533


Bravo OP!!!!

Excellent thread. You have the shills working overtime!!

I usually avoid the ancient civilization forum, because like the UFO forum, it seems as if a few people have a vested interest in promoting the status quo.
And the threads not blatantly reinforcing this status quo myth of modern culture tend to border on the absurd, which make it really easy for the same group of people who like history all neat and ordered to come in and start a debunking charade with sophist buster.

But then, every once in a while, a gem appears from the void.
Like this thread.

You are 100% spot on the money about the Vatican's lies.
The Vatican is notorious, even today, for employing professional polyglots who willingly and blatantly alter history to meet the Roman authorized version as laid out by the Vatican.
For an understanding of this, read the story of John Allegro.
The Vatican has a financial stake in portraying ancient cultures as barbaric.
The whole schtick of the Vatican authorized Christian religion is based on the fact that their supposed "Jesus" was an eternal replacement human sacrifice for all mankind.

According to them, the world was evil and nasty and the only way to appease god was through a new covenant of sacrifice.
Half of the Vatican's very own book, which they stole from the Jews apparently, is dedicated to communicating a precise method of established protocols for a proper sacrifice.
Sacrifice was the order of the day.
And if you sacrificed meat, as in a blood sacrifice, then you were a-okay in god's eyes, but don't sacrifice fruit, veggies, or legumes, because then you were the abomination of Satan.

The absolute best way for the Spaniards to convert the Aztecs was to pervert Aztec history.
They only thing that the Spaniards had to offer was initiation into a cult based on a ridiculous story that made absolutely no sense whatsoever, and the result of buying into this cult of Abraham was continual bondage through self-hatred and slavery to the Vatican.
The only release from this bondage was the ludicrous belief that "Jesus saves".
And he apparently saves because he himself was a human sacrifice.
(Or if you listen to Vatican PR, then they use the word "new covenant". Apparently, calling Jesus a human sacrifice is a bit taboo.)

This "Jesus saves" meme was all that these fools had.
And by teaching the conquered Aztecs a perverted version of their own history, where human sacrifice was, in fact, the means of appeasing the Gods, converting these "savages" became much easier.
They replaced this BS version of human sacrifice in Aztec history with their own human sacrifice.
Jesus.
And his sacrifice was eternal thus replacing the need to ever sacrifice again.
All you have to do is believe in him.
Oh yeah, and do everything that the monks say.

The Aztec codices contained pictograms, Nahuatl, Latin and Spanish, but the Nahuatl, which was the language of the Aztecs, was written in Latin script.
Modern linguistic interpretations of Aztec pictograms rely on the Latin, Spanish and the Latinized Nahuatl found in the post-invasion codices.
These post-invasion codices were written by Aztec sympathizers who were victims of Vatican voodoo and were just as brainwashed as any person who gets their weekly dose of propaganda and programming every Sunday.
Modern history conveys a biased perspective of Aztec culture because the very Nahuatl language used to interpret the meanings of original pictograms not found in post-invasion codices was itself Latinized

Nahuatl is written using Latin script.
And it was written by either Aztecs who were brainwashed into the cult of Abraham or the very same monks who brainwashed them into the cult of Abraham.

The Vatican is a money making machine with a vested interest in conforming the history of indigenous cultures to meet the official myth it propagates.
Go to any church, be it reformed protestant or Roman Catholic, and you will notice one thing...

The money issue is always an issue.
(and in case y'all haven't noticed the protestants ain't protesting anymore)

This is one of the best threads that I have read in a minute. BRAVO!!!

Jjust to put things in perspective, this advanced society everybody's praising so highly couldn't work out what to do with the wheel, apart from making toys with wheels.

reply to post by Astyanax

Yes, and just to put things in perspective, this advanced society everybody's talking about never got round to discovering what wheels were good for.

But yet they had an understanding of the universe and its movements that makes them quite the enigma when rationalizing the myth that they were savage and barbaric.

You do realize that the entire point of this thread is to debunk the idea that the modern interpretation of Aztec culture is, to put it bluntly, a lie.

reply to post by kyviecaldges

But yet they had an understanding of the universe and its movements that makes them quite the enigma when rationalizing the myth that they were savage and barbaric.

Fiddlesticks. They were primitives by Old World standards. I don't just mean by European standards; they were primitives by the standards of their Chinese, Japanese, Indian and Middle Eastern contemporaries too. Not their fault; just the way the historical cards fell. Ah yes, but you think history is a lie. So how are you even equipped to participate in this discussion?

You do realize that the entire point of this thread is to debunk the idea that the modern interpretation of Aztec culture is, to put it bluntly, a lie.

I do realize that you are rather well wrapped up in your own interpretation. Of everything. How's the weather out there?

reply to post by Astyanax

Fiddlesticks. They were primitives by Old World standards. I don't just mean by European standards; they were primitives by the standards of their Chinese, Japanese, Indian and Middle Eastern contemporaries too.

And yet you still fail to explain their highly advanced systems of mathematics, astronomy and time-keeping.

It seems as if the hallmark of your definition of civilized is the creation of an elite class of aristocratic families who separate themselves from the feudal servant class both literally through walls of stone and mortar and figuratively through a massive wealth divide.

And I suppose that this same civilized old world standard was set by those who stood as beacons of hope for the primitive peoples, all while also having pride in their total and complete ignorance of abstract thinking.

Unless of course you consider abstract thinking their promotion of a sky magician who supposedly bestows the rewards of heaven upon those who follow their religion's dogma, which interestingly enough keeps the feudal class in perpetual poverty.
But don't mind that, if only these poor ignorant masses just believe in the human sacrifice known as Jesus then they will be rewarded after they die.

Nothing primitive or absurdly ridiculous about that.

Nothing primitive or absurdly ridiculous about torturing and murdering heretics who dare question the legitimacy of this human sacrifice known as Jesus.

And yet you seem to believe unwaveringly that the exact same group responsible for keeping the impoverished masses enslaved through purposeful ignorance, torture, and fear were completely respectful in their preservation of history.
Especially the histories of the "savage" cultures whom they conquered and converted with brute force.

Your right.

They were civilized.

Not their fault; just the way the historical cards fell. Ah yes, but you think history is a lie.

No. I know that your version of history is a lie.
Read my comments.

So how are you even equipped to participate in this discussion?

When you ain't got anything to actually support your argument, then the only recourse is to question my competence.

Typical.

reply to post by Alexander2533


i didnt read this whole thread sorry but i just wanted to say about the needing surgical equipment to take out a heart is nonsense, all you need to do is have a sharp knife cut a fist sized hole under the sternum, then reach you hand into that hole till you find the rapidly beating heart and pull it out through the same hole, so please don't use that argument anymore, it holds no weight. The lying about it from the Spanish i do believe is possible though

Their astronomy wasn't that advanced. All they did was chart the location of starts and planets that they could see with the naked eye. They then did simple math to figure out how much said star/planet moved between measurements and deduced their future movements from that math. Not too sophisticated.

Their calendar was better than ours I admit. BUt thats not saying too much. THe chinese went for 400 years with a calendar that wasn't accurate. It was actually off by a lot. But still at that same time they were still much more advanced than the aztecs ever got to be. SO having a nifty calendar doesn't make a civilization that advanced or sophisticated.

Originally posted by daynight42

Originally posted by Alexander2533
Secondly.......... still beating hearts? Give me a break! Even to take out the heart from persons chest with an obsidian knife the Aztecs had would be a complete mess, and the possibility of it still beating is even more ridiculous, we all know that taking the heart out of the chest is an extremely complicated surgical procedure, which needs tools like surgical saws and scalpels, which Aztecs did not possess.

There is a video online that shows a person who died from a motorcycle accident. That person's heart was somehow ejected from their body, and it was laying on the ground next to them, still beating. The heart was completely separate from the body, mind you.

So much for that delicate procedure required. Apparently the truth is that enough force and with certain injuries, a heart can be removed completely from the body and be laying on a road still beating.

It wasn't even just for a few seconds. The video was a minute or so long, and it was beating that entire time. I kid you not. I will not link the video. Search for it yourself if you don't believe me. If you can't find it, I can give the link by message.

In related news, if a man's leg or arm is amputated, he can sometimes still feel it, even though it isn't there.

Makes us wonder about the nature of life and electricity.

edit on 19-7-2012 by daynight42 because: (no reason given)

I knew a soldier who removed a man's still beating heart. He did it with his bare hands. It can be done.

Originally posted by DocHolidaze
reply to post by Alexander2533

 

i didnt read this whole thread sorry but i just wanted to say about the needing surgical equipment to take out a heart is nonsense, all you need to do is have a sharp knife cut a fist sized hole under the sternum, then reach you hand into that hole till you find the rapidly beating heart and pull it out through the same hole, so please don't use that argument anymore, it holds no weight. The lying about it from the Spanish i do believe is possible though

Just rip right apart those dozens of extremely tough arterial and venous connections, yeppers, that ought to work.

Originally posted by Astyanax
Jjust to put things in perspective, this advanced society everybody's praising so highly couldn't work out what to do with the wheel, apart from making toys with wheels.

edit on 20/7/12 by Astyanax because: somebody popoled my vuh.

Where would they make use of a wheel ? Please. Jungle, mountains ? No horses ?

THANK YOU! Sorry for the caps but really I can't thank you enough for this thread. I'm so sick of the lies that are spread about Indigenous cultures. Orwell said "He who controls the present, controls the past. He who controls the past, controls the future." - -- George Orwell
That is so true. he Spanish all but obliterated the Aztecs and who's story is the one of believed?
You are so right. It is propaganda. It's also an example of cognative dissonance. First, the Spanish reported how Native people were such good people and in touch with God-hence the word Indian (which comes from Una gente en dios. It means a people in God. The phrase just got mutilated over time. Translator) Then, gold was discovered and they had to have a reason to pursecute the people and get rid of them so they could get their greedy hands on it. What better way than to report back to the pope and tell him how devilish the people were?
I had a friend that was Aztec and talked to him about this once. He said that his people had a written language and books. The Spanish destroyed these. He also said that they performed open heart surgery and that's what the Spanish witnessed. Makes sense to me.

reply to post by BASSPLYR

Their astronomy wasn't that advanced. All they did was chart the location of starts and planets that they could see with the naked eye. They then did simple math to figure out how much said star/planet moved between measurements and deduced their future movements from that math. Not too sophisticated.

In one sentence you seem to think that their astronomy was not advanced.
But then in the very next sentence you say that all they did was chart the location of stars and planets that they could see with the naked eye.

During this time in history the conquering culture in question, which was supposedly so "civilized", would execute people for the practicing astrology under the charge of practicing magic.
The only known documented Western knowledge of astronomy, at the time, came from the Greeks.

The same Greeks who happen to be the defining cornerstone for modern civilization.
Who incidentally only charted the location of the stars and planets that they could see with the naked eye.

The knowledge of Greek astronomy had evolved through time into the practice of astrology, which by the way was considered magic.

Maybe... Just maybe... the conquering crusaders considered the Aztecs "savages" because they, in fact, had an advanced knowledge of the movement of the planets.

After all, in case you didn't know, back then an academic understanding of the universe was considered magic, and the practice of magic was punished with death by torture.

reply to post by LimePie


i believe u are underestimating the strength of human beings