On Lies of Aztec Human Sacrifice

Now, about these Aztecs...

There's this two-dollar word I learnt from Harlan Ellison (not scraping acquaintance; got it from one of his essays in a Hollywood SF fanzine), thanatopsis. For 0.02¢ or less you can find a definition of it here.

Anyway, it seems to me – doubtless terribly influenced and propagandized by what old Blue Cage Avatar would call the Lie of History – that the poor Aztecs were infected with thanatopsis to a degree.

Consider, for example, those confounded crytals skulls* and the legend of Quetzalcoatl.

And then that relentless outward expansion** that supplied victims*** for those altars.

And – never mind if they were metaphorical or allegorical or simply phantasmagorical: those images. Aztecs created them, right?

These guy were obsessed with death.

You know, early civilizations generally tended to be. Check out the Sumerians, the Egyptians, the Greeks (whose myths grew progressively less thanatoptic as their civilization progressed).

It's understandable. People in those days didn't live long. A man was still young at twenty, but he knew he would be old at forty, and probably wouldn't last till then anyway. The anomie we feel today when we are young was unknown to them. They were all too aware that they didn't have much time, and were fascinated by the oncoming terminus.

The Aztecs probably took it a bit too far. But the Old World knew this too; it is reported (by the Greeks) that the Phoenicians and Carthaginians sacrificed children to their gods. In my own country, there was one lot who sacrificed virgins by throwing them off a mountaintop (not many, really; one a year, I think ) until the British put a stop to the practice. The British were always being party poopers like that.

But – what was I on about? oh yes – I think it's pretty clear the Aztecs sacrificed people. Maybe not so many of them. But even one a year is enough, isn't it?

I have ancestors who participated in those sacrifices****.

*The real ones, I mean. There are a couple of real ones, aren't they?
**A bit like the Spaniards really, except the hidalgos were projecting power a long, long way and most of their actual puissance on the spot was a front.
***Or converts, if our good friend halfoldman is to be believed, and it's certainly a possibility – at least for some of the victims.
****Probably.

One thing that leads me to believe that they were chopping off heads is that they played one of the most violent sports in the history of the world. I think it was called Poctapoc. Even if the game's gore has been exaggerated, it was still full of carnage.

It would not matter if we found bones of an entire sacrafical party still on an alter with blades clutched in their skeletal hands our intreped defenders of Aztec innocence would swear it was a life saving surgery in progress. No doubt our hero Aztec Priest /Doctor was cut down by savage Spanish rapists who then defiled the dead bodies by placing them in the position of "kiling a victim". All so that they could justify their piliaging to the Europeans back home who gave all sorts of crap about the plight of indigenous jungle dwellers.


There is WAY to much projection of modern sensibilities on to the past in this thread.
The Conquistadors didnt give a rats hind quarters what the "man on the street" thought about what went on in far flung jungles. They wanted gold and they were willing to kill to get it. They didnt have to invent anything about the Aztecs. The Aztecs didnt measure up to what "civiliized" was in their minds so they were "savages" and could be handled accordingly.

The defenders of the Aztecs are making an error here. I think most people here on ATS are more than willing to question the interpretations of historical evidence that modern scholars profess to be fact. That said ,however there is an extream amount of hair splitting going on here, Most of us putitng forth the "sacrafice" case seem to be willing to accept the numbers stated are most likely exagerations. Set aside the reasons for this I think its safe to say the numbers cant have been sustained. The opponets of the "sacrafice" case however are simply brushing aside anything presented as evidence. Professing it to be tainted by the Spanish source and putting forth the arguement that while "killing" or "punishment" may have occured it was not "sacraficing".

So I can end this thread right now. Yes you are right they didnt "sacrafice" anyone. It was all just "killing". They just "killed" a lot of prisoners and criminals. They saved all the official sanctioned "killing" for special days in the year. Then the offical government office holders would execute all those "criminals" in public.
I am so glad that this thread was started so that we could get that all cleared up.Thank you for getting me to see the error of my ways in thinking that the Aztecs were backward religious murderers. I now know them to be the backward elitist government murderers that they truely were.

Originally posted by BIHOTZ

Maybe a boat of Sumerians or Babylonians arrived and taught them how to be cannibals like their pagan priests were at the time. That is where we get our word cannibal. The Babylonian high priests ,the Peter ( great interpreter) were forced to eat the flesh of their human sacrifices too.
The word for priest in Babylonian is Cahna-Bal.

Most cultures had at one point or another the offering of blood without mortal death.

edit on 22-7-2012 by BIHOTZ because: fix

edit on 22-7-2012 by BIHOTZ because: (no reason given)

where in the world did you get the idea that cannibal comes from anything related to the babylonians? the world cannibal comes from the word caníbales a spanish name for the carib people in the caribbean, and since spanish is not in anyway related to akkadian the word used would be something like ēntu or enu or dingr.
the rest of this is nonsense, the babylonians have never been shown to eat human flesh, come on now.

down with disinfo.

After speaking with several experts I will have to go with the gory society theory. It seems that many "historical" documents have some fiction. Like the parts about virgins. Virgins seem to be mentioned a lot. On theory suggests that the population may have become comprised of 90% females due to a proven genetic phenomenon. So yeah, virgins might have been everywhere and disposable. One new discovery is that supposed sacrificial remains proved to be war deaths, between rival groups, the Spanish, and others.

reply to post by coyote66


You obviously don't understand the fair comparison I made. Again the Spaniards had steel weapons and steel armor. Steel was more durable than obsidian. and steel was stronger and less likely to be penetrated than leather. My comparison is more than appropriate for the situation the Spaniards and the Aztecs were in. I see with your bewilderment about my comparison you understand the technology gap that I presented it is the exact same type of massive gap the Aztecs were left with.

You are talking about a blowgun and darts that yes would have been successful it had been able to penetrate the armor which I doubt it could. The buckshot however from a musket or an arrow from a crossbow would have easily penetrated the leather armor the Aztec warriors were using.

I didn't even bring in the notion of horseback warfare which also helped the Spaniards. I agree the Spaniards had a psychological advantage which is why Montezuma at first welcomed Cortez into the city thinking he was Quetzlcoatl, but that got Montezuma killed. The Spaniards also had an advantage due to the Texoco tribe joining the fight.

In a battle of Spring tension like technology in the bow vs gunpowder technology in the muskets and cannons, the gunpowder would win easier. So yes it is like having a machine gun in a musket battle.

reply to post by denynothing


So the Aztecan didnt had metals, so what, the darts (thank you) didnt even need to penetrate the Spanish metal armor. They were covered with poison, remember? And of the most lethal kind of poison on earth too. All they needed to aim were the neck, arm or legs. It would be enough to paralyze or kill their enemy.

But consider the Aztec dudes didnt know how to process metal at that day, how did they manage to decaptivate and or to rip hearts out of someones chest? With bamboo tools? Oh, that would be in Asia.

And the muskets, those silly muskets couldnt even hit a bottle from a 5 feet distance. And I dont think they were able even to penetrate a leather armor either, in a single shot.

And the horses, are you even aware that, that part of America is in fact the heaviest tropical rainforest on earth? Using horses to fight a battle in a thick populated jungle full of all sorts of plants and trees, and who knows whats in it? The terain was nothing like the Spanish subtropical half desert scenery. It was a totaly alien battlefield for the Spanish invaders.

The only fearsome weaponry the Spanish could brought with them would be the cannons. So no, I dont think they had very much adventage back then against the locals.

reply to post by Alexander2533


www.youtube.com...

about otsi the ice man but if it can butcher a deer im sure a sharper blade in practiced hands could remove a heart in the fashion that is depicted in their carvings and records

www.woosterglobalhistory.org...

this site has various links to obsidian blades

www.woosterglobalhistory.org...

‘To evaluate procedures that could have produced the lesions described here, and to gain further insights, three approaches to the heart were replicated by [names of personnel excluded by Beachcombing to prevent google-induced blushes] of the Medical Forensic Service in Mérida (Yucatán) on modern cadavers. Bifacial obsidian knives were used for horizontal and parasternal transthoracic accesses and a subthoracic transdiaphragmatic access [figures given] following the specific indications provided by the authors. The bodies were laid down in an overextended position to replicate the iconographic representations. Tests were also performed to distinguish whether liver and other internal organs’ disembowelment could have taken place instead of heart removal and where potential marks would have been left on the skeleton.’ Briefly, then, members of the staff of the Medical Forensic Service in Mérida (Mexico) took three corpses. The staff pinioned the corpses out on the table in the style of illustrations of Mayan sacrifices (‘overextended position’). They then proceeded to remove the heart from the three corpses, following a different technique on each body, employing Mayan cutting instruments (‘bifacial obsidian knives’) instead of scalpels. They also removed the liver and other organs. All this was done to see whether marks were left on the skeleton. And boiled down even further… C. 2006, for the first time in perhaps half a millennium, Mayan sacrifices were carried out in Mérida. Now, make no mistake, the experiment worked. Vera and Andrea were able to show that the skeletons that they had studied had very likely had their heart removed in a sacrificial ceremony. They were also able to reconstruct the technique used to remove the heart: it transpires a short and painful one with priests holding the victim in place.

above text is from this source www.strangehistory.net... near the bottom of the link so it seems that yes scientists have replicated the process and it was and is possible to remove a heart as well as other organs in this fashon

www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil...

boards.straightdope.com... few interesting links from posts on that site

www.elcamino.edu... that one seems to be more supportive of the ops claims but ill post it here for those intrested as well

I'M BACK! Haha.

Sorry for being away for such a long time, thanks for so much support and challenges to this theory. And thanks for all those flags and comments.

In case some of you are still into that heart, the conquistadors gave us descriptions of quite ridiculous procedures, I'm not saying Aztecs weren't capable with their technology for it, but it's just been put in a drama thing by the conquistadors, heart removal isn't so easy or hard, conquistadors just created drama out of that, a drama where Aztecs were almost represented as people who took out the heart with one move! Haha, but that doesn't matter, as Aztecs did not do such things, and as human sacrifice is just a lie.

Anyway, I would love if we continue all this discussion, as I think we all are onto something.

Now, I gotta see all those comments, I will need some time!

reply to post by KilrathiLG


Man, I am not saying it's not possible. I was really, really skeptic in the beginning, but now I am not so skeptic. I am just saying that Spaniards have placed so much drama over that.

reply to post by demongoat


I didn't notice this before....BUT....you seem to think the world came into existence a couple hundred years ago...

Where do you think the Spanish got THEIR word which evolved from????

You do know WIKI is not the end all be all.....right?

If the wine of the communion table became actual blood, to drink it would be forbidden by the Bible, Deuteronomy 12:16; Acts 15:20. Many Christian martyrs have lost their lives rather than partake of the idolatrous mass, in which the priest claims to literally have the power to create God. The Council of Trent proclaimed that belief in transubstantiation was essential to salvation. In offering up the mass, the priest believes he is actually sacrificing Christ, a renewal of the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. The Bible, however, says Christ gave His life by one sacrifice for ever, Hebrews 10:10-14, 9:25-28.

After the priest blesses the bread (thinks he changes it into Christ), he places a wafer in the center of a sunburst stand called the monstrance. Catholics bow and worship this wafer god. Likewise, in Egypt, a cake was consecrated by a priest and was supposed to become the flesh of Osiris. Similar rites occurred in Mithraism and in ancient Mexico. Heathen priests ate a portion of all sacrifices. In cases of human sacrifice, priests of Baal were required to eat human flesh. Thus we have the word, “cannibal,” which comes from “Cahan-Bal,” priest of Baal.

www.jesus-is-savior.com...

that is just one source of many...

Where in the world did you get the notion that Caribbean people in the 1400´s INVENTED cannibalism. We had the practice in every culture and place in the world. That is more propaganda trying to make native people out to be savages.

Whether they did or not is irrelevant. The word comes from ancient Mesopotamia, and referred to the priest of BAAL....who practiced the sacrificial ingestion of flesh, real or perceived....which is where Christians get their practice from....but that is another story...

reply to post by coyote66


Sorry I just saw this, still wanted to respond.

Any historian will argue that the Spaniards had a gigantic advantage over the Aztecs. I mentioned already the benefits of steel. The benefit of the Texoco tribe that helped the Spaniards conquer the Aztecs. You bring up horses and how they wouldn't be effective in a jungle. Sure I'll buy that argue I know not much about horses and jungles so maybe you have a point. Thats only if the fighting was in the jungle which it wasn't. The fighting happened in the city of Tenochitclan a metropolitan city that rivaled many cities of its day, it was set up around streams that flowed through the city but horses easily could have gotten into the city and been useful in the city.

The Spaniards wore armor that was much akin to the armor of european knights. Meaning head to toe steel plate with chain mail. That meant that the elbows, knees, neck, and all other joints were thoroughly protected. That means no the darts would not have killed the Spaniards, just like the obsidian would not have pierced the steel armor. The steel weapons easily penetrated the leather armor of the Aztecs.

If you do not think that the Spaniards had that much of an edge then the fighting should have been fair, it wasn't. The Aztecs had to work very hard to kill just one Spaniard, while the Spaniards easily killed Aztecs.

Obsidian is a very hard material. Meaning it is also very brittle. The number of human sacrifices estimated by early archeologists were ridiculous. A very brittle material like that wouldn't be able to withstand such a life cycle, it would eventually crack. Especially considering that those knives weren't as sharp as the scalpel knives that are used today in modern surgery.

insanemobster60
Obsidian is a very hard material. Meaning it is z very brittle. The number of human sacrifices estimated by early archeologists were ridiculous. A very brittle material like that wouldn't be able to withstand such a life cycle, it would eventually crack. Especially considering that those knives weren't as sharp as the scalpel knives that are used today in modern surgery.

You really have no idea what you are talking about,.
You know they had more than one knife. And you obviously don't realize that the finest scalpels are made from OBSIDIAN. Obsidian will provide an edge far sharper than any steel blade.
The savage nature of Aztec sacrifice wasn't a product of European minds, the Aztecs themselves tell us how many people were sacrificed, and it not like they were the only meso American culture to do so.

punkinworks10

insanemobster60
Obsidian is a very hard material. Meaning it is z very brittle. The number of human sacrifices estimated by early archeologists were ridiculous. A very brittle material like that wouldn't be able to withstand such a life cycle, it would eventually crack. Especially considering that those knives weren't as sharp as the scalpel knives that are used today in modern surgery.

You really have no idea what you are talking about,.
You know they had more than one knife. And you obviously don't realize that the finest scalpels are made from OBSIDIAN. Obsidian will provide an edge far sharper than any steel blade.
The savage nature of Aztec sacrifice wasn't a product of European minds, the Aztecs themselves tell us how many people were sacrificed, and it not like they were the only meso American culture to do so.

edit on 17-10-2013 by punkinworks10 because: (no reason given)

I'm sure they had more than one knife, but how easy was it for them to manufacture such a high amount of obsidian knives? Were the Obsidian knives they manufactured nearly as sharp as the Scalpel knives of today. I know Scalpel knives are made of Obsidian. But you do realize that brittle materials crack very easily. Especially after a few cycles.

I'm a Toltec, Aztec, Olmec admirer since in my teen years. Everyone has there opinion and beliefs but I would like to share mine. So I recently I've been going thru some serious stuff just like any other person in this world and out of nowhere I started having prophetic dreams about the future regarding our Mexican people of today and visions of Ancient Aztec civilization telling me the real truth. I've always felt a connection with my culture but not as strong as now that is making me feel like an old soul walking in a new world to speak the real truth from an ancient witness . Also to find some evidence to back this up which I do have and I'll be posting the link. Also I've been open to learn more on other cultures, religion etc. And I'm surprised on how people can't see the smoking gun here Christian/Catholic/Satanic Illuminati etc… one world order has been there vision and goal to go by the Agenda and where you and I and whoever else is reading is taking part of it now. They blame others for there own evil acts. In my soul and the Aztec blood running through my veins. Is leading me to the truth where I feel bad for those hard working archeologist trying to figure us out and make up a history that doesn’t benefit no one like myself nor others but a benefit of there own that worship Satanic DOLLAR Sign and on top of that makes no sense even with there technology science and theories going by one false side of the story. First of I’m a very kind hearted person in general and I don’t believe in hate and since I don’t believe IN HATE I truly believe general people are good PERIOD. Anything that has to do with wrong or negative is a TEMPTION COMING from evil or demon to act it out in real life. The fact that the Spaniards preach the bible about LOVE and state about loving your neighbor they have never followed nor acted or do what they preach when it comes to LOVE. On the other hand they sold themselves out by teaching and keep repeating Satan’s acts there blood thirst to rage wars and shed innocent lives and trigger people to believe in revenge that its OK to die and die over materialistic things that don’t matter.So if you try to point the finger or try to argue that we sacrificed people and try to label (hippocrate). The Aztecs got there religion from the Toltecs and from there The Olmecs if you take time read and be open about there beliefs they clearly stated they believe in sacrificing Animals and NOT HUMANS! . So here are the facts given to us that the Spaniards destroyed every book, song, poetry etc. They also stated how beautiful our Empire was. And at that time there side of Europe town was becoming a death hole because they were destroying themselves there waters were contaminated and disease everywhere that’s the reason of the conquest. Cortez landed in the Land of God’s he encountered other tribes and as stated treated very well and welcomed him like a King just like Montezuma did. So then I’m sitting here watching this documentary and started reading other Aztec Articles and all say that “Spaniards are stating Indigenous people are humble people. . But then a KING, GOD, EMPORER WITH SUCH POWER AND PEOPLE ARE SAVAGES , BLOOD THIRSTY CANNIBALS…. AND THEN HERE WE ARE TO SAY IF THAT’S HOW CORTEZ LABELED US HE WOULDN’T OF SUCCEEDED AND NO CONQUEST WOULD HAVE BEEN DONE PERIOD. So then out of nowhere while I was meditating in my Bathtub I zoned out and I just feel and hear an like an old soul. Just telling me “ I’m a witness and that our people did not kill our own people. They erased our history and enslaved us and other tribes and made us reveal THERE TRUTH in our names. Pay attention the answer is in the symbols of how they murdered us. We were sacrificed to there God.” I literally woke up in tears and wrote everything down in my journal. And started searching and reading and watching Documentaries on ancient civilizations and the bible and the illuminati and they are all connected and led too raging war shedding blood for the result to idolize one God one religion at the end of the day to become a one world order. All of the nations that idolized the same God (Sun) ended with a new world order to believe in Satan. The Illuminati has a disgrace to STEAL and use Egypt pyramids as there symbol. Making the real God’s look evil. And portray as a God All our knowledge and culture and history is being labeled and down grading other people’s cultures to make you feel a shame of yourselves and make you believe that you sin and reversed so we can follow and be “enlightened”(Illuminati) setting us up to death. Let me tell you GOD IS GOD and in India, China, Egypt, Mexico, Guatamela, Peru etc. Have there temples and Pyramids and are still standing for a reason and believed in the same GOD. So where is the temple that Jesus or Satan is waiting for? No where!!!!!??? And now My prophetic dream so I was supposedly in Mexico and that I went to some plaza and that out of no where here comes some type of government or federalies or martial law connected with Russia some how but they got out of there military trucks and started to throw a bunch of black balls at the floor at myself and the Civilians that when they hit the floor it non stop cries or pours out pepper spray like a water hose that you are blind and crying on the floor because your all soaked. So then while I’m laying there they cuff me and a whole bunch of Mexican civilians and make us do a line to get in back of some white SWAT truck and it open from the top. And then I see a man dressed all white covered head to toe and a clear covered window to see. Like if someone had Ebola carrying gallons of idk what at first. So I asked a man infront of me what are they going to do with us? He says they are burning all Mexicans inside those trucks. So then I just see that man close the back door truck with people sitting inside and poor the gallons of gasoline and then the driver takes them up a hill to burn them and dump the bodies. Then idk how I did it but I just remember running and saying # that. And landed in a Motel with nothing but Royal Russians and some Old lady wearing a burgundy dress like a Quince Era ball dress and white gloves that go up to her elbow and starts caressing my face and with a nice voice but evil face says to me “ Don’t worry your kind would be sold as prostitutes” and then I woke up quick and wrote everything down. And if you noticed right now there’s a lot of immigrants and children immigrants missing!!! So that’s the American Hitler prophecy that is now slowly playing role.

books.google.com... =e9P5weEf5Ne8oX05d1nZeuzp3nI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiY18Lpu8_eAhWQKnwKHbPqALQ4KBDoATAIegQIAxAB#v=onepage&q=Spaniards%20invented%20sacrifice%20stories%2 0against%20natives&f=false

Here's the THE LINK of the book called To His Majesty King George The Third etc. THIS NEW GEOGRAPHICAL AND HISTORICAL GRAMMAR IS HUMBLE DEDICATED BY AUTHOR THOMAS SALMON WHERE IT SAYS SACRIFICES WERE FALSE AND CORTEZ DID THEM

a reply to: EeLar

TLR may I suggest you use paragraphs. Right now its a massive slab of unreadable words.

a reply to: Alexander2533

I'm glad this thread got bumped. I agree 100%

There is a skewed historical perspective that has been established.

Kings would sacrifice themselves to assist in the peaceful transitions of power. The sick and dying would sacrifice themselves to not be a burden to their families. And so on. It was in part an honor in their society.

That's how it became established as a custom in their society. A very civilized and highly organized culture had established rules for elected death.

Being highly evolved culturally and practicing human sacrifice is not mutually exclusive.

We walk on the moon and still use capital punishment back on earth for example. We have established rules for death. We pull a plug on a comatose loved one or inject a prisoner with poison. They used stone age tools.

Ritual sacrifice as an accepted practice in their society may have been overused in times of war and hardship.

When Europe met the Americas, the Americas had just finished going through a prolonged period of internal fighting and civil war almost continentally.

The groups that helped the Spaniards were being punished by the Aztecs for rebellion for example.

Lines of succession became violently contested regionally and much of their society was already in upheaval.

Natural disasters and plague brought their feuding civilization to war. Then we came and sneezed on them.

Their history was lost to revisions by their own leadership during chaotic times of political transition of power in minor kingdoms coupled with the deterioration of the larger scholar class from natural disasters and later war.

The conquest was just the further burning of it all.

We based all of what we know for many centuries on VERY few sources and academic texts that were written by the conquerors. The damage is done.

So many other first-hand accounts and prime source material existed too. It was all ignored until Mexico became a country and efforts were made to learn the truth.

The story of what the prehispanic cultures truly were is not completely lost.

Look at the ball court at chitzen it'sa. The stone artwork portrays row after row of skulls. Then there's the codices. And all of their enemies who complained to ethnographers that the Anasazi were eradicated by Aztec slaving expeditions who survived in the desert southwest by eating their slaves. And bone pits found with Aztec knives and butchering marks on human long bones--prima facie evidence of Aztec cannibalism.

Accept the Aztecs for who they were. With all the glamor, the glory, and the pain. Trying to whitewash the ancestors is a hallmark of fascism. Like the nazi fascination with vikings, or Mussolini and old Rome.

The Aztec pantheon fed on human suffering. The Aztec "King" mutilated his own genitals because the gods were strengthened by his pain. This had meaning for Aztecs. You want to lie it out of existence to feed your own fantasies of an ancient ancestral utopia.

You denigrate them by denying who they were

a reply to: Hanslune

That's the beauty of it