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On Lies of Aztec Human Sacrifice

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posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 09:58 AM
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Hello to all ATS members and administrators. This is a very important thread for me as I will attempt to explain you something that very few people talk about. We all know that one of the most discussed (if not the most discussed) topic in Aztec history studies is human sacrifice, but no one discussed about human sacrifice being a propaganda material used by the Spanish, that is exactly what we will discuss here.

Let's begin from the beginning


1492, a year when Columbus reached the Americas, and a year that is considered by the Europeans to be a "Discovery of a New World". That marked a beginning of an end, of all magnificent cultures flourishing there.

Since that day, many "explorers" arrived in the Americas, and one of them was Hernan Cortez, a famous Spanish conquistador, known for conquering Mexico, more specifically the Aztecs. We all also know, that Cortez failed in his first attempt, as Aztec warriors pushed Spaniards out of Tenochtitlan. Later he conquered the Aztecs, not because of his military prowess, but because of around 90% of native population vanished across all Americas, "thanks" to European diseases.

Terrible atrocities were caused upon the Aztecs, and of course, as any other conquering colonial force, they needed justification for such atrocities. So they came up with a famous story of human sacrifice.

Let's see how it took place, Bernal Diaz del Castillo, Cortez's assistant, says that he witnessed human sacrifice from his camp locate outside Tenochtitlan. He is mentioning Aztec priests took obsidian knives and ripped the heart out of the victims chest, while it was still beating. Now, let's prove that Diaz is a cheap little liar. Firstly, it is clear to historians that Spanish camp where Diaz was located was on a shore of a lake....... a lake which was 4 miles away from Tenochtitlan. From where he could not see Aztec sacrifices, and especially could not see hearts still beating in priest's hands. Secondly.......... still beating hearts? Give me a break! Even to take out the heart from persons chest with an obsidian knife the Aztecs had would be a complete mess, and the possibility of it still beating is even more ridiculous, we all know that taking the heart out of the chest is an extremely complicated surgical procedure, which needs tools like surgical saws and scalpels, which Aztecs did not possess.

Now, with that hammered into the ground, let's speak of Nahuatl a bit, a language the Aztecs spoke at the time.

In Nahuatl, there are words for offering sacrifices like food and animals to Gods and ancestors, something similar to Chinese Confucian ancestor worship. But amazingly, there is no word for human sacrifice! There is a word, "Tlacamictilitzli" which according to a Spanish monk means human sacrifice. But in reality, it is not true. Tlacamictilitzli means "to kill a man" or "killing a man", which is used in describing homicide, not a sacrifice in particular.

I got most of that information from a website descendantofthegods.tripod.com

Now, even more important thing is that we have no pre - colonial documents that describe human sacrifice. However, we have dozens of colonial era Aztec codices depicting what Cortez and Diaz are talking about. Those codices were of course, influenced by the Spanish propaganda, them being written in Latin script makes that even more clear. It is easy to find Aztecs who are willing to sell their soul to the Spanish in order to live in riches, as there are greedy fools everywhere, thus they were they writers of those codices, Vaticanized Aztecs...

There are mounds found near temples with decapitated bodies, however that does not mean human sacrifice, but indeed a death sentence that criminals and possibly war prisoners faced. There are also numerous mounds that were also thought they were Aztec sacrificial mounds, until experts proved they were European bodies buried by European (actually Catholic) customs.

This human sacrifice lie spread like the disease did, almost every advanced civilization (Mayans, Moche, Incas, Zapotec, Olmec, Toltec, Mixtec and of course Aztec) were judged to be human sacrificers. The scientific innovations were forgotten, and a lie was embraced, Now when anyone mentions the Aztec or any other advanced civilization of the Americas, the first thing that comes to people's minds is human sacrifice, which was a propaganda lie, by a people who committed most horrible genocide and crime in history. We need to remember their true lives, the magnificent architecture, mathematics, calendar, astronomy, writing, art, and many many more, instead of embracing a propaganda lie, invented by Vatican influenced murderers that committed such horrible atrocities, atrocities that do not cease today.

I will welcome all comments, and I hope there wont be insulting and cursing, as we only follow the truth. No matter how we feel about that truth, and this truth here is truly beautiful.

I hope we will have a very very nice discussion.




posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 10:33 AM
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f.l gomara CONQUISTA DE MEXICO may shed some light on this the spanish found mounds of giant bones chapter cinco soles que son adades look up immanuel velikovskys archive under giants . the things they sumbled on were at odds with the catholic beliefs ??



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 10:39 AM
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reply to post by Alexander2533
 


When in a state of conquest, even a simple farmer can be considered a "war prisioner." So I find your distinction somewhat less than compelling.

Human sacrifice on an altar is still human sacrifice. Just like when people try to tell me that THEIR cultures version of slavery was somehow so much more noble than other forms of slavery. No it isn't.



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 10:59 AM
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reply to post by SibylofErythrae
 


Hehe, read my thread again, carefully this time. Aztec warriors were capturing SOLDIERS from other armies. And those soldiers, would be SENTENCED to death for some reasons, like burning Aztec villages etc.

Not SACRIFICED, but SENTENCED.



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 11:00 AM
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reply to post by geobro
 


Those might be burial mounds not mass graves I was explaining to you...



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 11:14 AM
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Bravo! S&F.

My intuition has always led me to not believe the human sacrafice stories, but never had the time to really try to disprove it.

I've always felt there was something wrong with this story and I think you have nailed it.

It will be interesting to see the coments and debate this post will provoke. I look forward to a healthy discussion and debate about the accuracy of these human sacrafice stories.

Thank you!



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 11:25 AM
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Originally posted by Alexander2533
He is mentioning Aztec priests took obsidian knives and ripped the heart out of the victims chest, while it was still beating. Now, let's prove that [color=gold]Diaz is a cheap little liar.


I don't even know why I'm still reading.
There seems to be a name calling and slam motive behind the OP.


Originally posted by Alexander2533
Firstly, it is clear to historians that Spanish camp where Diaz was located was on a shore of a lake....... a lake which was 4 miles away from Tenochtitlan. From where he could not see Aztec sacrifices, and especially could not see hearts still beating in priest's hands.


Obviously
the thread author has never read the Popul Vuh.


Originally posted by Alexander2533
Secondly.......... still beating hearts? Give me a break! Even to take out the heart from persons chest with an obsidian knife the Aztecs had would be a complete mess, and the possibility of it still beating is even more ridiculous, we all know that taking the heart out of the chest is an extremely complicated surgical procedure, which needs tools like surgical saws and scalpels, which Aztecs did not possess.



OH ... MY ... God...


Where to start.
Should I even bother?



The Hunapu Brothers
invented the heart transplant
as a way to decieve the gods of the dead.

They would operate,
remove a still beating heart,
and then put it back in so the person lived.

The gods of the dead were impressed by this
they asked the brothers to try it on one of them.
They did it, but put a fake heart back in so the god died,
and then they made their escape.

What I'm saying is that when the west first heard about this
it was dismissed as hot air and fantasy.
But,
we developed heart transplant medicine,
and prooved that it is IN FACT possible.

The other thing is that the story of the Hunapu brothers
is part of the creation myth of the central american native cultures.
It goes back to the foundation of their civilization.






Who drew this picture?





Why are these prisoners here all bleeding out of their hands,
and passing out from blood loss?




You know what,
never mind,
go hug an aztec if you want too.

I don't care to discuss it anymore.


Mike Grouchy




{edit}

oh yeah,
and the Aztec capitol (what is now Mexico city)
The entire thing used to be a lake.
It WAS NOT four miles away.


edit on 19-7-2012 by mikegrouchy because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 11:35 AM
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reply to post by Alexander2533
 

the bones were of giant proportion



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 11:36 AM
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reply to post by mikegrouchy
 


Muhahaha!

Your words are truly nonsencial. Hunapu brothers MYTH from Popol Vuh, again a COLONIAL document written in LATIN! Of course it is nonsencial, Spaniards did a good job deceiving you. Vatican nonsence. Besides there is no myth of an actual HEART TRANSPLANT. Or did you add it to Popol Vuh, or you've been looking to some other Spanish scrabble, I really am not sure where you were. And stop pushing those COLONIAL documents into my face, as we use them only as evidence of Spanish deception. I doubt there is anything good and true within colonial scriptures.


Julie Washington, thanks for your comment, you are truly honorable, we should all work together to fight false accusations.



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 11:43 AM
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reply to post by mikegrouchy
 


How the hell do you know how exactly Tenochtitlan looked like?

Diaz does because he describes the location of his camp, not knowing we will use that against him to subdue his lie. They were by the lake, 4 miles away from Tenochtitlan, from where they came up with a plan to lie even more.

And a lake that Tenochtitlan was built on was surrounding Tenochtitlan from all sides and it took about less than a mile to enter Tenochtitlan (from lake shore to chinampas)

That first drawing showing a knife being stabbed through the chest is from another colonial codex.

And the second drawing showing MAYANS, actually possibly prisoners with blood in their hands describes a disasterous event of the universe, where everyone is impacted and everyone is covered in blood. Not human sacrfice.



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 11:44 AM
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reply to post by geobro
 


Who knows what they've found, maybe something even they do not understand. But that is obviously a tomb, enlarged bones can mean many things. But neither has anything to do with sacrifice or mass graves I was describing..



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 11:54 AM
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reply to post by Alexander2533
 


Cutting a guys heart out with one of the sharpest objects on the planet (they use obsidian in heart surgery today, you know) is not as complicated as you think it is. You cut under the ribcage and reach straight for the heart

In a practical research test using a simulated human body a doctor managed to get it out in twenty seconds using a kind of crappy flint (not obsidian) knife.

About Aztec sacrifice, I think that it did happen and had a very large religious significance to them. I would expect that the Spanish would exaggerate it to the extreme though. Didn't they claim that they sacrificed like 20,000 in one day?

Even if they did get extreme about human sacrifice towards the end it is probably because due to the devastating new diseases they were possibly trying to appease the divine with blood.
edit on 19-7-2012 by Mkoll because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 11:57 AM
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Been to many aztec ruins. I've seen the sacrificial alters. If thats not what they were being used for than the aztecs has some of the most bizarre furniture in the history of man.

WHat about the other native tribes that al said the aztecs practiced ritual human sacrifice. Interesting story about how the Aztecs ended up living on an island at first. The main tribe in that valley was the Texcoco. At this time the aztecs were a separate culture about the size of a village living in the same valley the texcoco controlled. The king of the texcoco's arranged a marriage between his daughter the texcoco princess and an aztec prince. The aztecs say they need a few days to prepare her for the ceremony. The king sends her off. A few days later his entourage arrives to witness the wedding of his daughter. He doesn't see his daughter. Then out comes some aztec high priest dancing in the texcoco's kings daughters skin. Yes they fillet her and wore her skin instead of marrying her to the prince of the aztecs. THe texcoco king little upset sent his troops on to the aztec. The aztec being very small at the time were chased all the way to that little island that they started their empire on. The whole time confsed as to why the texcoco king wasn't happy and was unset.

So when the Spanish arrived. The other now subjugated tribes in the region were only too happy to join forces with the spanish to elliminate the aztecs. Also. Montezuma was no help in maintaining a good relationship with the spanish. He was in the middle of full blown dementia and paranoia by the time the spanish met up with him outside tenotchitlan (sp)



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 11:58 AM
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reply to post by Mkoll
 


Obsidian is quite sharp, but they did not have enough to perform such a feat with such precision as described by conquistadors.

It would take huge amounts of effort to perform such a feat with taking the heart that is still beating.

However, I do not see why we even discuss this because as I've said Diaz lied about seeing that.



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 12:03 PM
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reply to post by Alexander2533
 


By what standard is your word infallible? Is it because Diaz is a liar? Even if he lied about a lot I doubt the Spanish built the sacrificial altars and painted the Aztec pictures of human sacrifice to complete the illusuion. They probably lied about a lot, but the Aztec culture seems to have practiced human sacrifice to some degree, evidenced by sources outside of the Spainards
edit on 19-7-2012 by Mkoll because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 12:03 PM
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reply to post by BASSPLYR
 


"Sacrificial altairs" might actually be praying altairs, with food offerings, and possible animal sacrifice. Also, blood letting might be the answer, as Mayans cutted their tongue and took a few drops on a paper, then putting it into fire.

Tribes saying Aztec sacrificing humans? Who told you that? Spanish did!

And that wedding ceremony? Where did you get it from? Colonial era Aztec codices written in LATIN and influenced by Spaniards and converted vaticanized Aztecs!

Man, do I need to repeat again and again, to me colonial era codices are not authentic because of them being influenced by Spaniards and vaticanized Aztecs, also written in latin which confirms my theory of who influenced that writings.



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 12:04 PM
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ALEX........Great postFrom the first moment I read your post I knew I was going to have to completely re-evaluate my beliefs on this entire matter - most especially my Catholically inspired teachings and beliefs. I might even have to take another look at "Our Lady of Guadulupe" in light of a total reassessment of the Mexican Aztec and Mayan teachings............thanks for opening my head up on this one..........much food for though in light of our presently inspired internet awareness of all thigs historical that we were led to believe - and if fact have always believed without qestion - untill now................



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 12:05 PM
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reply to post by Alexander2533
 


Aztec carvings depict human sacrifice on altars.

The Spanish didn't do that



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 12:05 PM
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reply to post by Mkoll
 


They did not build those altairs. Aztecs did, but those are not altairs for human sacrifice, but for what I've explained you, other kinds of offering.

And give me all of what you've got. All "evidences" of human sacrifice. I will be happy to hammer it into the ground.


Send me pictures of those carvings.
edit on 19-7-2012 by Alexander2533 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 12:07 PM
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reply to post by Alexander2533
 


OP Mel Gibson, from what I understand had a lot of research done for this movie. He wanted to get as close to Aztec realism as possible. I'm of the belief that the elite you see sitting in this video clip from the movie, have always had their human sacrifice. Right up to this day they have it. Even thru the abortion clinics. The Aztecs are a remnant of a time when the whole earth was filled with such violence.






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