Is Jesus the only way to God?

reply to post by Elsha


the thing that bothers me is that Christians still ignore all the places in the bible that personify the creator and give the creator human qualities...or mortal qualities is a better assessment...which belies the statement you just made that the creator is perfect...well then how can the creator be jealous? that is a human trait and a selfish one at that...i do not believe the creator even has a drop of jealousy...its out of character...the creator doesn't go around like some spurned girlfriend trying to get even...its ridiculous to even think that...

no the creator doesn't need to be jealous, because whether we acknowledge it or not, nobody can take possession of our souls...they will always belong to the creator from whence they came...others would like us to believe that lie, because they want our souls...but they can never have them...they dont have that power...its wishful thinking on their part...

this problem of humanizing the creator, is further compounded and confused by the doctrine of Christs divinity...because it is easy for us to assign human qualities, or mortal qualities to the creator if a member of the trinity was human...and that is exactly how the editors of the bible, including Constantine, were able to make it more acceptable for themselves to be obeyed as gods...they used religion as an inroad to tyranny...and this is still being done today...

the reason why this will change eventually is for two reasons...

1. Christianity has outlived its usefulness in their eyes...it served it purpose initially, it once did have close ties to the Lucifer world system (Illuminati) and it was their brainchild to begin with...sure it has truth in it as any great lie does...but that is the trick they have used to dupe millions...all the earmarks are there, and its crazy to ignore the connection between the Universal Roman Church of Constantine, the Babylonian religions, and other "pagan" religions, and the occult...and since it was their creation, they will eventually do like they do all of their creations, or all people they sponsor to some degree...they will turn on it/them, and destroy it/them, to get rid of any connection...

2. if they can eradicate the Abrahamic religions once and for all, then any trace evidence left in the bible and the other scriptures that reveal their influence, and other connections to other phenomena...and it, can be destroyed, then people will eventually forget or lose what truth is in the scriptures (including the Qur'an and the other Abrahamic scriptures)...and any evidence of tampering will also be destroyed...this was always part of their plan...they have done it to all the religions they sponsored throughout history...and any time old texts are unearthed that shed new light on their evil, they quickly discredit anyone that makes the connections...

dont think for a chance that they will just stop with murdering Muslims in the name of Christianity and apple pie...they will turn on everyone that even hints a connection to these religions...Christianity, Judaism, and Islam were all tools of division and subjugation...and no the real Jesus did not practice any of them...he practiced love, taught love, and chewed out the selfish hypocrites of his day...

we may not have to be taught how to lie, but we certainly can learn how to love...not shallow love, but real love...and that can take a lifetime...and it doesn't need a false doctrine to sink in...it just has to be lived and observed, and repeated...

i never said i dont believe in Jesus or his teachings, but i do not believe that Christianity is a true reflection of that teaching, nor do i believe that his teaching was a continuation of the Mosaic law...all you have to do is read the gospels to see that...but instead of people who claim to follow Jesus tossing out the law, they revert to it and completely undo everything he stood for...they even turn his crucifixion into an extension of this law...which is mind bogglingly idiotic! sure he is credited with saying he did not come to abolish the law, but fulfill it, but does anyone stop and think just once, and remember that his actions said entirely different? or are we still so content to be fooled by the slight of hand magic show of Christianity? dont be fooled...learn to see the inconsistencies instead of flat out ignore them...then once you see the bulk of what he taught, instead of listening to the few implanted scriptures that completely contradict everything else he taught...maybe you will get it...

Christ was consistent...sure they try to throw inconsistency in there and claim that was a part of his humanity, but then i ask you, is that really the marks of divinity? all the apologists arguments are self defeating...i see right through them...if enough time was invested, a parrot could be taught the same nonsense, but it still would not make it true.

reply to post by studythem1


Yes...remember, Jesus is the most pivotal character in the Bible, and his gospel isn't even present.

Ask yourselves, why would this be? Why would the supposed "savior" be absent from the novel in which he starred?

Because his writings contain information the Church doesn't want us to know...the Church is lying to us by omission. That much is clear.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


I'm not giving you my opinion. What I wrote above is how God is revealed from Genesis to Revelation. For example: On earth nothing is free to humans. We have to work for everything and pay our bills etc etc. But the scriptures are clear that you cannot buy salvation. God offers it freely. So already there are major differences in how humans live and interact with each other and how God interacts with us. Our money means nothing to God in the important issues....

reply to post by Elsha


sure nothing is free, but if we work for it ourselves, we save tons of money and dont have to pay into this corrupt system we live in, and Christianity is a tool of that same corrupt system...it always was...Jesus never taught the nonsense the church does, and has since it became a state religion...

free huh...

see thats just it, still Jesus is passed off as the blood transaction for sin, which again is a corrupt and evil idea...based off of blood sacrifice in every religion and all from the same evil source...and then later we find out we have to give one day a week to brainwashing, to be saved, have to submit to baptism (which jesus never intended to be a mandatory custom but the idea was rebirth and baptism was symbolic of that), and tithes and offerings...so whats free about that? seems like the requirements keep stacking up to the point that what the impersonators of god offer is no longer really free...if it was why kill a man? that is rather selfish, and the creator is not selfish...

you are also still ignoring the fact that the creator is not only impersonated throughout the bible, but completely misidentified and given the wrong characteristics mixed with a few of the right ones...contradictions abound in the bible, and it takes a lot of discernment and scrutiny to dig the truth out of it...

so apparently god was a schizophrenic? i think not, and i think the bible is an affront to the creator...its really very slap in the face clear to me...

no god did not reveal the scriptures to man, man corrupted the scriptures that were inspired, altered them as a tool of control, and then shoved it down other peoples throats...that is clear...

reply to post by studythem1


Several comments on your post:

1. You and I have discussed scripture authentication and textual/manuscript analysis. You have to bend to the actual historical facts and you refuse to do that. Therefore your opinion cannot be supported by the historical facts. The bible is solid and we are reading the same scripture that has been read for thousands of years. That is a historical fact further supported by the Dead Sea Scrolls.

2. When there are passages of the bible showing human emotions thats called an anthropomophism. You have to understand that the bible is the world of God and makes claims to be the word of God within itself. God is revealing and speaking to mankind and so the language used is meant to help us understand him. It would be like you revealing yourself to ants. There would be some inherent problems doing that and you would have to adjust and help them to understand who you are. God is no different. But when the bible says God is jealous its not a sinful "im the only one that matters where's my attention" etc etc. God is jealous for us not for His own sake or because He is lacking something from us that He needs. His jealousy is for our own well being. God is not like men at all. He can get jealous but that does not violate all the passages that clearly teach God as being a Perfect Being.

3. I think you are not making the distinguishment between Roman Catholicism and biblical christianity. You are aware that the Christian church was fully operating for over 5oo years before the Roman Catholic system. Now Roman Catholicism has many traces of babylonianism because that was already part of Roman religion before Christianity was joined to ancient roman paganism to form what we know as the Roman Catholic Church. Biblical christianity is still found today however and has no part with paganism.

reply to post by studythem1


That is not clear. I dont know what else to say to you because your all over the place with your historical facts. All I can say is you are not basing your views on this using historically objective facts. You will its all corrupted, scripture has been changed, christianity is a tool, there is nothing that will impact your beliefs on this. But you are not dealing with the facts here. Even if I were not a Christian, I would have to bend to historical facts. I know that much...

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Why is it such a surprise that Jesus does not have a gospel with his name on it? He never founded a school, left any writings of any kind, he appeared to Mary first after the resurrection which was a decision that could have shipwreacked the movement before it got up and going. Jesus did nothing that "ministry leaders" do today. That only further convinces me that Jesus was/is the Messiah

Originally posted by Elsha
reply to post by studythem1

 

Several comments on your post:

1. You and I have discussed scripture authentication and textual/manuscript analysis. You have to bend to the actual historical facts and you refuse to do that. Therefore your opinion cannot be supported by the historical facts. The bible is solid and we are reading the same scripture that has been read for thousands of years. That is a historical fact further supported by the Dead Sea Scrolls.

its as solid as a block of Swiss cheese nailed to a sponge...im not bending to a pack of lies to support your claims...or anyone else's...and you still choose to ignore the whole of human history outside of the bible...cross reference that and then see if the bible still stands solid...you focus on 200 years of biblical documents after Christ and only maybe 2000 years before, but there are thousands of years beyond that that are ignored and several after...not only that but you still do not see the connection between the evil pushed in the name of the church within those 200 years of the new testament...and the documents that this corruption produced, as if they were independent of each other...so i ask how... can truth... come from the liars and murderers that pushed Christianity on the then known world? so we just focus on the authenticity of the text and ignore the deeds of those murderers? cmon really?

2. When there are passages of the bible showing human emotions thats called an anthropomophism. You have to understand that the bible is the world of God and makes claims to be the word of God within itself. God is revealing and speaking to mankind and so the language used is meant to help us understand him. It would be like you revealing yourself to ants. There would be some inherent problems doing that and you would have to adjust and help them to understand who you are. God is no different. But when the bible says God is jealous its not a sinful "im the only one that matters where's my attention" etc etc. God is jealous for us not for His own sake or because He is lacking something from us that He needs. His jealousy is for our own well being. God is not like men at all. He can get jealous but that does not violate all the passages that clearly teach God as being a Perfect Being.

wrong again, to give the creator human traits is an attempt to justify bad behavior in men who have power over others...simple as that, or of you believe in beings from another planet, they also did the same, impersonators...they are not the creator, but the people who saw their powers confused them with gods or the creator...they lied simple and plain...the creator is again not like some jealous little girlfriend out for revenge...a perfect being has no need for revenge hatred or jealousy...no matter how "good" it is for us...(insanity)

3. I think you are not making the distinguishment between Roman Catholicism and biblical christianity. You are aware that the Christian church was fully operating for over 5oo years before the Roman Catholic system. Now Roman Catholicism has many traces of babylonianism because that was already part of Roman religion before Christianity was joined to ancient roman paganism to form what we know as the Roman Catholic Church. Biblical christianity is still found today however and has no part with paganism.

you are obviously confused by the lies they have woven to hide the Babylonian doctrines within Christianity...Roman Catholicism is the father of modern Christianity, and i think i showed already that Martin Luther and many like him were allowed to continue their version of Christianity because it did not expose the lies already in the bible...and those that did were killed off, murdered in the name of god...but thats ok right? cause killing is ok when its blessed by a god...(are you insane?) that has led us to where we are today...still practicing the same lies based off the old ones with a new veneer...the two are the same in spirit my friend, dont be fooled, Christianity is still a tool of control and will be till those still practicing it are caught off guard and realize it is too late...follow Jesus, not some concocted propaganda, and then you can say it is really truly different...i dont care how hip or touchey-feely it is dressed up to be, its the same lies because it refuses to shed those lies...and to ignore the obvious pagan correlations is just plain idiotic...the same patterns exist, and if the creator truly was the author of Christianity, then why reuse the same doctrines every time? that makes no sense! so your god recycles...how nice...a perfect god does not need to reuse old corrupt ideas to convey a "new" message...truth is the creator never changed the message, but men did, and the same lie has been told in every century with a different costume...

reply to post by Elsha


ok so we have to bend to a pack of lies? history is always written by the victors, whether it is true or false...it is from their perspective...

so if we want to ignore truth, then we can bend to what is called "fact", but since i refuse to bend to a buch of doctored evidence im wrong? ok whatever, keep living in your delusion...

i think the truth is you are not armed with the same knowledge and have to tell me i am ignoring history...when in fact i probably have knowledge of more history than you, and have not chosen to ignore certain historical facts that you seem so comfortable to ignore, or were never taught because it was "taboo"... gotta think outside the box and get up really early to get over on me, im too old and wise to just be hammered into submission...

reply to post by Elsha


this is where i disagree with both of you...Jesus never wrote anything resembling a book...he was a living book...he taught, and people learned, and lived as he did, that is what it means to really follow Jesus...all the other crap is unnecessary...

and this next bit is not really directed at anyone...but if the shoe fits then wear it...

if we cant get that through our thick skulls then maybe we do still need the outrageous contraption called state imposed religion...its seems to have worked out well for centuries...even if they dont admit it is state controlled, and try and make people think its really a separate entity...they are content letting people believe that...so go right ahead...keep playing their games...some people are still content to be in the matrix...

reply to post by studythem1


The Dead Sea Scrolls were found in 1948 and verify that what we believed was the Old Testament had actually been preserved better and for longer than we even thought. Therefore the conclusion is we are, today, reading the same scripture that were read as far back as 1900bc. That is a historical fact you MUST bend to. You have no choice. If you refuse and ignore it as "written by the winners", then you have only decieved yourself. Not all history is lost or a conspiracy...as much as I like a good conspiracy.

reply to post by studythem1


this is reply to your comments on my three points...

Catholicism came after the birth of the church. The 7 churches in the book of Revelation were operating in the first century. During the first century Nero and others killed christians. Thats a historical fact. There was no Catholicism then. That to is a fact of history. We havee so many first century writings from early church fathers that we can use there letters and put the entire New Testament together from scratch. That is a historical fact. If you decide to just deny all the facts of history then we cant talk because I know all about that relativism etc and there is no point to continue with that epistemology.

Roman Catholicism has persecuted christianity from its beginnings. That too is a fact of history.

Originally posted by Elsha
reply to post by studythem1

 

I think you are not making the distinguishment between Roman Catholicism and biblical christianity. You are aware that the Christian church was fully operating for over 5oo years before the Roman Catholic system. Now Roman Catholicism has many traces of babylonianism because that was already part of Roman religion before Christianity was joined to ancient roman paganism to form what we know as the Roman Catholic Church. Biblical christianity is still found today however and has no part with paganism.

again erroneous information, the church that emerged after the takeover of Constantine was never the same as the one right after the ascension of Christ...in fact the "church" was not even really one single entity...it was a bunch of independent groups all squabbling over who was practicing it correctly, or practicing a version of Dionysian-ism that they relabeled as following Jesus (cause it was easy to blend the two) or people who just like today go to a church just to feel good and sin all week, or Jews who still read the torah and remembered Jesus' miracles...it was a mish mash of churches so diverse it could not even be called an organization...Paul saw the opportunity to try and unify them all, but i doubt even he did... and his motives were not pure either, nor were all of the books attributed to him really his words...

or do we want to ignore all the information in favor of one doctrinally correct propaganda?

your claims sound impressive to the uninformed, but they reek of the same spirit as the pharisees...all show and no substance...

reply to post by Elsha


dead sea scrolls that were carbon dated by the same method that is called inaccurate by the same church that uses that argument to refute any claims by scientists that dont fit the bible right? so since its about the bible it has to be true, but only applies if its about the bible...LOL

if its about anything else that doesn't fit, well its wrong, because the bible doesn't mention it...

isn't that a rather narrow view of the world?

reply to post by studythem1


Hvae you considered the actual simple information about Jesus of Nazareth? You are aware that Jesus fulfilled over 300 prophecies concerning the Jewish Messiah. The first prophecy of this Jewish Messiah is found in Gen 3:15 making it a very old prophecy. It would be MATHEMATICALLY impossible for Jesus to purposely fulfill all the prophecies.

That means that, mathematically speaking, Jesus is the Messiah. Plain simple fact that is logical and intelligent. Isaac Newton also wrote how Jesus mathematically fulfilled Daniel chapter 9 prophecy of Messiah coming into Jerusalem to the temple.

Yes we are dealing with math now....is that better?

reply to post by Elsha


i do not choose to ignore facts, i take all the information in and then sift it...something you do not do...

remember i was a biblical student for many years....33 years to be exact, and i have read everything you have

i just did not stop there, i chose to go further and take in the whole account of history rather than focus on the church approved propaganda that supports just the bible but ignores everything else...

reply to post by Elsha


again statistics do not impress me...they made things fit the way they wanted to to continue their control...its plain and simple...

i do consider Jesus teaching only...everything else is just fluff...unnecessary and just there to confuse...

and that genesis 3:15 scripture is a stretch to call it a prophecy...a LOOOOng stretch...i think its really just wishful thinking...all that means is people hate snakes and they bite people in the leg...its a wives tale they wove into the creation account...

junior: "mommy why do snakes bite people in the leg?"

mom: " well, you see when god created the earth...and the snake and humans been at odds ever since"

no reference to Jesus there...

reply to post by Elsha


well here's the part you ignore...there was so much eye for an eye back then that one minute an emperor favored Christians, so the Christians persecuted the pagans, then vice-versa, and this continued from the time of Jesus all the way to the reign of Constantine...so for 500 years people went back and forth over religions, killing each other off in the name of Jesus or Zeus, take your pick...neither way makes it correct, but Christianity seems to conveniently brush the equal amounts of blood shed in its name... under the rug...i understand most modern Christians do not act this way (yet), but because most of the doctrines they are taught are in contradiction to Jesus teachings, they carry the same attitude, even if they do not murder people, they speak as if they wish they could often...and to me that is the same thing...thoughts lead to deeds...that is why this whole mosaic curse is continuing to effect everyone...because we keep reverting back to the law...

fact, Christianity (not the practice of following Jesus but the religion, there is a difference) was conceived in blood and continues to beg for it when it is politically correct...i hear so much hatred for Muslims come out of the mouths of Christians who have never even talked to a real one, but seem to think they all have dynamite strapped to their chests, that i am sick of hearing it...i am not a Muslim, but many of my friends are, and they do not share the same views as the extremists, they were just brought up Muslim, thats all, its all they know...its familiar...they are not concerned about hardcore doctrine, they just want to lead simple wholesome lives and be good people...and be respected...thats it...but every time i turn around i hear that Islam is the work of the devil...WELL SO IS CHRISTIANITY...

in fact, the lady i quote in my signature, Hypatia, had a following similar to Jesus, but because a local bishop got jealous of her, he had her raped, beaten, murdered and then skinned alive till she died from shock...all at the hands of his laymen...and she was just a philosopher, not a guru or a teacher of religion...all she did was love those she was around and they loved her...and that was her sin...so she had to be murdered...sound familiar? sounds like the Sanhedrin to me...all over again...

but of course it was not the same thing because it has a different label... of course...no connection at all (sarcasm)

i dont care how many of the early writings survived, the fact is that ONLY the state approved letters are part of the supporting evidence, Constantine and those that reaped the benefits of his power made SURE they eradicated all the other extra-biblical works that they could... and because ONLY at the hands of a very few monks in very isolated cases, do we even have the honor of reading books like Plato (i have read it too) and Homer (that too) and Aristotle (also read)...if it was not for those few monks those too would have been wiped from history...i do not trust the selective preservation of letters simply because they only support the church and Constantine version of the scriptures...the truth is all other works, whether dangerous or threatening to Christianity or not, were destroyed besides the few examples we have that just barely squeaked by...and this was at the hands of the church that pushed the modern version of Christianity...not some pagan barbarians that could not read...even the Germanic tribes by that time had converted to Christianity for the most part...and i still dont understand why, just because it was mass produced and forced more upon the roman empire, the bible of constatine has any more validity in it than any other work that has less copies...so we ignore the sumerian clay tablets, whose volumes are in the thousands, and predate the bible by 4000 years in some cases...even genesis was plagiarized from those...so we take a more recent and corrupt version of the same story that was tweaked and had details removed (basically paraphrased in summary with a little ethnic flavoring) and believe that over the original account? that is ABSURD

what about other scriptures, the Nag Hammadi library...which regardless if it is correct or not, proves that there were other works out there that the church destroyed completely out of hatred...

lets ignore all the ancient texts unless it is the bible...lets ignore them all and live in a fairy tale bubble (sarcasm)

all Christianity after Constantine is an abomination...a tool of evil...and does not even come close to the teachings of Jesus or the spirit of his words...because it adds all the legalistic hatred and heaps judgement upon everything but itself...and more often than not, Christians exhibit the same attitude...

reply to post by studythem1


You clearly have some issues accepting certain facts about history. Council of Nicea was in 325ad About 2oo years before Roman Catholicism. The council basically gave a nod to the scriptures that were ALREADY in acceptance as having apostolic authority.

Roman Catholicism persecuted christians for centuries and even today, Vatican II states that the Roman Catholic church is the only true church. True Christianity has always been persecuted. You cannot seem to accept that distinction. You want to see Christianity as a blood shedding movement when its the blood of the martyers that is the seed of the true church. This is all spiritual and you may not even have the capacity to understand what I am saying. Non-believers is Yeshua (Jesus) cannot understand the things of Yeshua. There is no way around this.

Those who can accept the truth hear Yeshua's voice. As he told Pilat, its that simple. Therefore it has not been GIVEN to YOU to understand these things. I'm sorry...

reply to post by Elsha


The council, which Constantine presided over, voted on what myths to include and what myths NOT to include. Because he could see what a wave Christianity was making in the empire, he decided to rewrite Christianity so that it would be more widely accepted. He took something that as happening and made it easier to accept.

Hence, all of the pagan myths and beliefs were indoctrinated, and from that point onward, the pagans were effectively transplanted into a religion that had all of their rituals and celebrations and none of their beliefs.

No wonder the pagans were pi**ed.