George Takei's blog on the BSA reaffirmation of the ban on LGBT Scouts & Leaders

reply to post by jonnywhite


I understand where you are coming from, but you have a choice about sports, you don't have a choice about sexual identity.

You play sports because you love sports, if you get injured, it is a sports injury.

Unlike getting kicked out because of sexual orientation which has nothing to do with being a scout.

If you want to use the sports analogy, it would be like getting out of football by the coach because you watch Cupcake Wars on the weekend. Has nothign to do with the ability to play football.

Yes, childhood can be painful, but there is a difference between knowing you can break an ankle in soccer or being refused by an organization for simply being who you are.

I was instantly sidelined for basketball the first day because I wasn't one of the popular girls. Those feelings never leave you.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
I'll say it again. It's a private church based group. They can run it as they wish.
(*different churches run different troops .. some catholic, some protestant, whatever)

That's the point. Some Churches include gays.

Originally posted by PurpleChiten

Originally posted by Christian Voice
This thread has really gotten ridiculous with all of the hatred coming from homosexuals

I am 100%, absolutely, positively NOT a gay man, but I will support their rights and equality against hate filled bigots with everything I've got.

Absolutely!

I am not gay either - or a man. I just celebrated my 22nd wedding anniversary.

I raised 2 daughters - - and am now helping raise 2 grandchildren.

I teach them "People are their Heart".

When my granddaughter was 9 - she asked me if gay meant a boy likes a boy and a girl likes a girl. I said "Yes" - - her response? "Oh OK" - - then she ran outside to play. Today (age 12) she has a friend that is gay.

Ignorant bigotry is taught to kids by ignorant bigot adults.

Originally posted by HandyDandy

Originally posted by FlyersFan
I'll say it again. It's a private church based group. They can run it as they wish.
(*different churches run different troops .. some catholic, some protestant, whatever)

That's the point. Some Churches include gays.

Yes. There is a Catholic gay church in Los Angeles. The priest that started it has been ex-communicated because he stood his ground.

Basically he told man - - "Screw you I'm staying with God".

Originally posted by Ookie
reply to post by PurpleChiten

 

Again, The sexual urge to be with one of your own sex is gay. Does not matter how old the person is. I can not accept that messing with someone of the same sex is not gay. I think it is a smoke screen put up by gays so they won't be included with the pedophiles. They do not want to admit that there are some among their ranks that are slightly more perverted than they are. They feel they should not be associated with them. But they are. Sandusky was a gay. He did not molest girls. The wife was a smokescreen to hide his being gay in a sport where that is very frowned upon.

It is all mental illness and they need treatment. But pretty much all gays have been fooled into thinking they are not mentally ill and do not need treatment. I constantly have the urge to blow up cities with enormous bombs. But I don't because that is wrong. I am able to control my urges. I have never hurt anyone (since I was a teenager, I hurt a LOT of people when I was young). Gays should control theirs. If they can't then they need help. Not encouraged and coddled and told they are normal.

Just because YOU don't know enough about something to undertand the difference doesn't mean there isn't a difference. You don't have a concept of what "gay" is due to having a fear or hatred, therefore, you don't understand that there is a difference. There is a very, very wide range of sexuality for consenting adults. There is nothing, absolutely nothing "abnormal" about being gay, straight, bisexual, lesbian, or any other form of sexuality that involves consenting adults.

Taking it down to a level you can understand with what you are familiar with, think about the sexual activity that you have been involved in. According to your logic, anything other than the missionary position for the purpose of procreation would be wrong. No oral sex allowed, no other positions allowed, no other.... repositories (to keep it as "clean" as possible) would be allowed. ONLY the missionary position and ONLY for the purpose of making a baby. That is what you are giving as conditions here whether you realize it or not.

As far as your urges to blow up cities, that DOES concern me.... a great deal! Your urges would harm and kill millions of people, gay sex results in a flow of endorphines through the minds and bodies of the consenting adults involved. VERY big difference.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by HandyDandy
I'll ask again.

I'll say it again. It's a private church based group. They can run it as they wish.
(*different churches run different troops .. some catholic, some protestant, whatever)

Some of the most CHRISTIAN people I have ever had the pleasure of meeting:

mccchurch.org...

We are called as Christians to:
• stand in solidarity with those who are marginalized and oppressed,
• be partners in working for change,
• be witnesses who call attention to Human Rights abuses,
• be a voice in the international community for justice,
• lift up new generations of remarkable, far-reaching spiritual activists,
• build on hope and create our future.

It may well be that the Scout's official attitude seems, or is, unenlightened, ignorant, or even prejudiced.

On the other hand, the Scouts depend on having boys join as members. These boys have parents, usually the old-fashioned hetero kind. The parents must give their permission for their sons to join the Scouts and then give their support to the activities in various ways. Parents, or at least some of the hetero kind, might hesitate to allow their young sons to join the Scouts if they worried that the Scoutmaster could be one of them. If the Scouts removed their barrier to gay Scoutmasters, parents - at least a very substantial number of them - might refuse to let their sons join the Scouts, with the result that the Scout movement would wither.

So it may be unenlightened, but it keeps the Scouting movement viable.

Originally posted by Shoonra
It may well be that the Scout's official attitude seems, or is, unenlightened, ignorant, or even prejudiced.

On the other hand, the Scouts depend on having boys join as members. These boys have parents, usually the old-fashioned hetero kind. The parents must give their permission for their sons to join the Scouts and then give their support to the activities in various ways. Parents, or at least some of the hetero kind, might hesitate to allow their young sons to join the Scouts if they worried that the Scoutmaster could be one of them. If the Scouts removed their barrier to gay Scoutmasters, parents - at least a very substantial number of them - might refuse to let their sons join the Scouts, with the result that the Scout movement would wither.

So it may be unenlightened, but it keeps the Scouting movement viable.

I'm feeling very dizzy.

I may be off widely, wildly, but:

"First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me."

This quote can be used in all political ways. It's not conservative or liberal.

I am not a christian. In fact, I'm a hardened agnostic that has played with the idea of being an atheist, but I since I can't deny God with confidence then I stay away from that. And I got a gay brother. I consider myself open minded and a supporter or human rights and so on. But I just can't understand why there's so much disagreement. I think the BSA is behind the times, but I don't want to forbid them the right to choose who they can permit in their membership and who they can let go. I've made several posts in this thread trying to lay out my arguments, but I understand now that we're on opposite sides. Yet, I don't very little in common with the christians posting here. I definitely have nothing against homosexuals or lesbians. I know a lesiban, for that matter. I think it's mostly natural - maybe 99%? I'm thinking of that case where the guy had a stroke and "woke up" gay. This was a thread on ATS a few days ago. But anyway, I wish people would stop using the policy of the BSA as a tool and an excuse to enforce their views on others, particularly christians.

Just remember that the BSA is a christian (private) organization. It doesn't represent America unless you're a christian and you support the ethos of the BSA. If you don't, it's your option to create alternatives to the BSA and to represent them as an American symbol. Nothing forces you to join the BSA.

Here're some alternatives:
www.bsa-discrimination.org...

Again, I don't understand this. But maybe it's because I was teased while growing up so i'm familiar with adversity. Hate crime laws bother me because they're not tolerant of adversity. Generally, I agree with them, but sometimes they cross a line that's eerily too similar to Hitler and his regime when they attacked Jews. You see, the hatred or scorn some people have for homosexuals is endowed in the very same people who desire to make it a crime. I don't consider words to be a crime until they result in violence or more tangible harm. If you knew who I really was in person, you would get what I'm saying and not be so judgmental. I am not a hateful person. Just want freedom.

Oddly, the same people who're on the attack against bullies are the same way too. I was attacked by bullies routinely while growing up. But I don't live now desiring to attack them. I believe that, rightly or wrongly, we have to grow up with some adversity. We cannot abolish growing people from speaking their mind or even from rough housing sometimes. Perhaps I am getting too old for the modern world - geez, I'm only 35. But what's happening? Why're so many kids grabbing guns and shooting up people and why is our country increasingly becoming militaristic and authoritarian? Why're there so many hate crime laws and laws to make people equal? I'm sorry, NOBODY is equal. You can't enforce equality. Nature doesn't exist to make equal things. It makes unequal things that battle to survive.

Originally posted by Shoonra
It may well be that the Scout's official attitude seems, or is, unenlightened, ignorant, or even prejudiced.

On the other hand, the Scouts depend on having boys join as members. These boys have parents, usually the old-fashioned hetero kind. The parents must give their permission for their sons to join the Scouts and then give their support to the activities in various ways. Parents, or at least some of the hetero kind, might hesitate to allow their young sons to join the Scouts if they worried that the Scoutmaster could be one of them. If the Scouts removed their barrier to gay Scoutmasters, parents - at least a very substantial number of them - might refuse to let their sons join the Scouts, with the result that the Scout movement would wither.

So it may be unenlightened, but it keeps the Scouting movement viable.

Actually, most parents who have sons that are of "scouting age" now would fall in their 20's and 30's. These aren't the same people that the generation was 10 years ago, these are the now-parents who grew up "grunge" and "emo" and were exposed to much, MUCH more diversity then we were. They don't care about sexuality, it isn't a problem for them (the majority of them). Homosexuality isn't an issue for today's teens and young adults, it's the "old farts" who have the problem, or at least half of the "old farts" as I'm a bit long in the tooth myself but luckily didn't become a bigoted homophobe during my lifetime just as many others didn't who weren't trained to hate.

Sure, the homophobes outnumbered the more intelligent when we were the young parents, but that's not the case anymore. They have become the miniority now and times will change greatly as the old get older and the young have more children. It's the "circle of life" and there's nothing the hate filled, bigoted, homophobic, closed minded, backwards, socially challenged group of people who are accustomed to "running the world" during their hey-day can do about it.

You have been voted off the island, you're fired, it's over and the younger generation is taking your place and homosexuality isn't a big deal to them. Game over.

reply to post by petrus4

they inevitably trample on the rights of others to free association; to choose who they will or will not associate with.

Free association, what the hell are you talking about? Oh sure you have the right to chose your friends, but you don't chose your co-workers, your boss, or your family for that matter. If people aren't okay with the idea that they might be associating with homosexuals then they should probably lock themselves in their houses and never come out.

For example let's say we have a guy named Joe, Joe is white and he doesn't like black people. Joe gets a job at a local grocery store. Joe soon realizes that one or two of his co-workers are black. Now sure he has the right to quit his job to avoid associating with people he feels were somehow born the wrong way but what he doesn't have the right to do is become CEO and ban black people from getting jobs at this grocery chain. Your right to "free association" extends only so far.

So where in this case (regarding the Boy Scouts) are gays trampling on the "free association" rights of others? Simply because they want to be treated as equal human beings and included in the group? Because they don't want to be kicked out the group simply for being who they are?

They don't want equality; they want homosexual social dominance.

The same arguments were leveled against African american groups during the civil rights movement. In fact the vast majority of tired old anti-gay arguments are eerily unchanged versions of arguments used against other minority groups in the past. Did you know black people can marry and reproduce with white women legally now? With all these freedoms trampling on the rights of others its only a matter of time before they dominate us white folks... and thanks to musicians like Jay-Z they already have our youth brainwashed.. how little the face of ignorance changes

and Takei should also be willing to face the fact that just because he might be monogamous and respectable, that certainly does not mean that all gays are.

Heterosexuals are allowed in the scouts AND not all heterosexuals are monogamous and respectable. And by the way why are those the two words you chose? What exactly is this stupid misconception about monogamy being somehow a heterosexual trait? Last I checked most marriages end in divorce right and teen pregnancy isn't exactly a thing of the past. Seems this whole heterosexual monogamy thing isn't going so well. Human beings on the whole are a pretty promiscuous species so I see no reason to associate homo or hetero sexuality with monogamy and no real reason, other than puritanical nonsense, to associate monogamy with respectability. Do you not see the implication of heterosexual SUPERIORITY in your words here? Telling Takei to "Face the fact" that his fellow gays are somehow degenerate, that they are less "monogamous and respectable", in comparison to heterosexuals?

Originally posted by jonnywhite
I may be off widely, wildly, but:

"First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me."

This quote can be used in all political ways. It's not conservative or liberal.

I am not a christian. In fact, I'm a hardened agnostic that has played with the idea of being an atheist, but I since I can't deny God with confidence then I stay away from that. And I got a gay brother. I consider myself open minded and a supporter or human rights and so on. But I just can't understand why there's so much disagreement. I think the BSA is behind the times, but I don't want to forbid them the right to choose who they can permit in their membership and who they can let go. I've made several posts in this thread trying to lay out my arguments, but I understand now that we're on opposite sides. Yet, I don't very little in common with the christians posting here. I definitely have nothing against homosexuals or lesbians. I know a lesiban, for that matter. I think it's mostly natural - maybe 99%? I'm thinking of that case where the guy had a stroke and "woke up" gay. This was a thread on ATS a few days ago. But anyway, I wish people would stop using the policy of the BSA as a tool and an excuse to enforce their views on others, particularly christians.

Just remember that the BSA is a christian (private) organization. It doesn't represent America unless you're a christian and you support the ethos of the BSA. If you don't, it's your option to create alternatives to the BSA and to represent them as an American symbol. Nothing forces you to join the BSA.

Here're some alternatives:
www.bsa-discrimination.org...

Again, I don't understand this. But maybe it's because I was teased while growing up so i'm familiar with adversity. Hate crime laws bother me because they're not tolerant of adversity. Generally, I agree with them, but sometimes they cross a line that's eerily too similar to Hitler and his regime when they attacked Jews. You see, the hatred or scorn some people have for homosexuals is endowed in the very same people who desire to make it a crime. I don't consider words to be a crime until they result in violence or more tangible harm. If you knew who I really was in person, you would get what I'm saying and not be so judgmental. I am not a hateful person. Just want freedom.

edit on 20-7-2012 by jonnywhite because: (no reason given)

Always an appropriate quote when looking at discrimination of any kind and why all of us should stand up against it!

reply to post by EvilSadamClone


Funny, because that is the only way this country started. Only 25% of the colonists supported the Revolution. Good thing those that know the majority are idiots can compensate for them.

It is always easy to say it is someone else's problem when you are not the one being marginalized.

I loved George in Star Trek... and I loved him on Celebrity Apprentice... and I love his little video about "It's ok to be Takei" !

Warp speed ahead Mr. Sulu!

reply to post by Annee


Shoot, the gay married men next door were better husbands than I have ever seen. There was nothing they couldn't fix, cars they couldn't repair,and they taught my kid to ride a bike in 15 minutes. lol

reply to post by PurpleChiten

I like him too. Not a trekkie, but was a fan of the shows when I was growing up.

TNG was my favorite, but Takei is so unique. He was put into an internment camp with other japanese during WWII. So his perspective is very different from that of most of us.

And he grew up during a time when homosexuality was still very much discriminated against not just privately or in private organizations, but openly on jobs sites, in schools, and so on. He doesn't realize times have changed quite a bit. There's a lot more understanding of homosexuality now.

Still I disagree with his stance on this.

Liking him as a person and disagreeing with his stance are different things.

So since I disagree I must be a hardcore christian homosexual hater?

So I should go to prison for commiting a hate crime since I hurt someone's feelings?

Did you know I get my feelings hurt every day by others? This happens to most of us. I grew up and got hurt many many times. SEriously. But I don't hate those kids for what hey did. They should not go to prison. Life ain't a perfect thing. We learn by making mistakes as much as from successes. You know what else? Most of those kids grew up to become responsible and even married. If they had been sent to prison or bully counciling or put on a drug for bullies I sometimes think they would have been worse off and the world would itself become crippled by too much intolerance for conflict.

I'm not condoning harm on others, just wondering why this is a mystery to others.

See, I get the feeling here people DO NOT know adversity and this is why they're this way. In some way or another, their life has been sheltered from the conflict in this world. So when they open their eyes and see the conflict, they're shocked and dismayed. They assume a combat stance and make an offensive! Onward to glory! But alas I think they're misled and harmful to our freedoms.

PS: I've had girls ask me if i'm gay. Many people have thought I am. Just because I don't act like a normal guy and don't pack heat and don't have the self confidence of an action hero.

Why do I think the BSA should accept gays?

Because its an American institution that continues to perpetuate - intolerance - ignorance - prejudice - negative myths - about a minority group.

Because being gay does not exclude a person from: duty to God and country.

Because being gay does not exclude a person from being - - physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

Because it is an American institution ALL boys should be able to participate in without living a lie.

Because it is an American institution ALL parents should be able to participate in with their children.

Do you have gays in your community? Do you have gay owned businesses in your community? Do you have gay families in your community? Do you have gay citizens in your community?

"The BSA goal is to train youth in responsible citizenship, character development, and self-reliance through participation in a wide range of outdoor activities, educational programs, and, at older age levels, career-oriented programs in partnership with community organizations."

The BSA operates traditional Scouting by chartering local organizations, such as churches, clubs, civic associations, or educational organization, to implement the scouting program for youth within their communitiesen.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by jonnywhite


So you've experienced being hated just because of how you were born?

Not because of anything you did by choice?

We've not been free since the Great Depression. Sure, it's still a slogan and they still try to convince people of it, but it just isn't true. What little bit of freedom we had was completely taken away on 9/11. The terrorist (or whoever it was who planned it and carried it out) were successful. They did destroy America. They destoryed the very foundation of who and what we are. We're not a free country, not even close. I doubt we ever will be again.

With that being said, we need to ensure that we are at least a "safe country" and ensure that each and every citizen is safe to pursue happiness in whatever way they possibly can that doesn't harm someone else. If that means allowing homosexuals to be married, if that includes rednecks going on Jerry Springer, if that includes people who want to watch porn on their computer in their parent's basement while pretending they're living at the foot of the cross, if that includes people who want to stock up supplies for the zombie invasion... so be it. As long as they are not physically harming another person, have at it.

However, when their desires are to keep others from having any possibility for happiness, when their desires are to see harm come to others, when their desires put others in danger, then it's not ok. One person's "rights" end where another person's rights begin. The right of the individual to practice the religion of their choosing ends when it physically harms another person who isn't involved in their religion. The extremist fundamentalist evangelicals want to force other people to think and do as they say. They want to force homosexuals into suicide. That's their goal. They won't allow them happiness, they won't allow them sexual expression, they expect them to "act straight" but that's not who they are. They are homosexuals that have a sexual preference for others adults of the same gender. As long as both of those people are consenting, then they should have every right (and responsibility) that two people of opposite genders have. THAT is what homosexuals want. They want equality.

Sure, they have to take it to extremes in order to get it through to some people. When you're haggling a price at a flea market, you go well below what you're willing to pay and the seller goes well above what they want to get and you meet somewhere in the middle. I see this as what the gay groups are doing. They are asking for "all of it" in hopes of getting something acceptable. If they only asked for the absolute minimum, they would get less than the absolute minimum. They have to ask for the entire thing, everything they can think of, go as extravagant as possible with the hopes of ending up with the absolute minimum. That's how it works and you know it as well as I do. You have to start well beyond your baseline in order to compromise and that's what many have done.

If their goal is legal recognition and the right to marry with all the responsibilities and benefits of a marriage, they have to go well beyond that in their demands. They have to demand absolute inclusion, they have to demand special protections, they have to demand everything they can think of so there will be "room for compromise" and through experience, they know they're the ones who will have to compromise the most. So, it's "go big or go home". They have to ask for the full enchilada in hopes of getting the basics. Right now, the fundamentalist evangelicals would call for their execution if they thought they could get away with it, but they can't. There's still a lot of compromise to be done and it will even out over time. The extremist group caused it to be escalated to the point that it is so they have only themselves to blame.

Originally posted by Annee
Why do I think the BSA should accept gays?

Because its an American institution that continues to perpetuate - intolerance - ignorance - prejudice - negative myths - about a minority group.

Because being gay does not exclude a person from: duty to God and country.

Because being gay does not exclude a person from being - - physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

Because it is an American institution ALL boys should be able to participate in without living a lie.

Because it is an American institution ALL parents should be able to participate in with their children.

Do you have gays in your community? Do you have gay owned businesses in your community? Do you have gay families in your community? Do you have gay citizens in your community?

"The BSA goal is to train youth in responsible citizenship, character development, and self-reliance through participation in a wide range of outdoor activities, educational programs, and, at older age levels, career-oriented programs in partnership with community organizations."

The BSA operates traditional Scouting by chartering local organizations, such as churches, clubs, civic associations, or educational organization, to implement the scouting program for youth within their communitiesen.wikipedia.org...

If it is their stance to continue to discriminate against a group of legal citizens of the United States of America, then perhaps it's time the group be disbanded just as the KKK was. They are one and the same with their present stance.