A Challenge to Chemtrail Believers - Explain this 1969 Issue of Popular Science:

Originally posted by GhostLancer

Originally posted by Uncinus


Can you explain why you think that? It appears to contradict all known physics and history of water and contrails.

That's a nice, neat, compact statement that in and of itself has nothing factual in it but an unbacked assertion. You state that it "appears to contradict all known physics and history fo water and contrails" says that you are not aware of "all nown physics and history of water adn contrails."

At least in my assertions I stated that there are, of course, exceptions to the examples I provided. Yours is such a sweeping statement that it is almost certainly false.

Fascinating.

Not only did you fail to to answer the question but you made yet another assertion yet failed to provide any evidence or source for your Belief.

The statement from Uncinus WAS factual. It is easily verified. The known physics of contrails and indeed the historical record of contrails clearly shows that your belief that any contrail that persist must have "more to it than water vapor" is false.

Can you please explain why you think "normal" contrails must "disperse quickly" ? What is the source of this information?

...and why does it contradict the facts of basic atmospheric physics as proven in the following peer-reviewed scientific papers written over the last 40yrs??

Please explain:

scholar.google.com...

Originally posted by GhostLancer


So far, theories about cloud-seeding exist,

actually, no...cloud seeding is very real and has taken place for decades...its not secret and has nothing to do with supposed "chemtrails"

www.weathermodification.com...

Originally posted by GhostLancer

Originally posted by goou111
i posted this way back on page 7 and no one has answerd it yet



i have 1 question for believers

what the hell are the "chemtrails" doing to us?

shouldnt all the old people be dead by now ?

im 40 why am i still here ive been breathing there s--- my whole life

You are asking questions that the general public doesn't have the answers to because OBVIOUSLY this is a secret program. Only the people in the know truly KNOW what the reasons are.

If it's a secret, then how are you and others aware of it ??

Originally posted by GhostLancer]
There could be many reasons for this program. Use your imagination to try to estimate why this would be happening?

Why would I "use my imagination", to determine "facts" ??
If there were "facts", I wouldn't need to rely my imagination.

This sentence of yours contradicts itself....

The FACT is that planes are spraying/releasing UNKNOWN substances into the atmosphere for UNKNOWN reasons by UNKNOWN people.

Does: unknown + unknown + unknown = fact ??

Originally posted by GhostLancer]
This is not a case-closed SOLVED mystery. This is a modern, open-ended concern. Shills and "debunkers" here try to avert efforts or create straw-man arguments in order to ridicule and obfuscate (confuse) the issue.
......... Why dismiss and ignore evidence, going for tidbits to dispute as if that dismisses the entirety of the whole?

But the OP's article is not just about a "tid-bit" of the story....it's a huge chunk of current "chemtrail" thinking/reasoning.
Why aren't you addressing it directly ?

Don`t run away from this video. We know that persistent contrails can be formed only at high alittudes, so we must assume that the contrails seen in this video are at alittude 8-10 km in troposphere. Just tell me who left these so called contrails there?

www.youtube.com...

Originally posted by GhostLancer

Originally posted by goou111
i posted this way back on page 7 and no one has answerd it yet



i have 1 question for believers

what the hell are the "chemtrails" doing to us?

shouldnt all the old people be dead by now ?

im 40 why am i still here ive been breathing there s--- my whole life


ok 3 questions

edit on 21-7-2012 by goou111 because: (no reason given)

You are asking questions that the general public doesn't have the answers to because OBVIOUSLY this is a secret program. Only the people in the know truly KNOW what the reasons are. There could be many reasons for this program. Use your imagination to try to estimate why this would be happening?

So far, theories about cloud-seeding exist, but that might just be cover story material. Einstein himself said that "Imagination is more important than knowledge." So, exercise that noodle of yours to come up with answers to your own questions. If we had the answers, then there may or may not be a controversy. The FACT is that planes are spraying/releasing UNKNOWN substances into the atmosphere for UNKNOWN reasons by UNKNOWN people. We're trying to figure this out, right? Or have you already made up your mind in the fashion of, "Don't bother me with the evidence, I've already made up my mind." ???

This is not a case-closed SOLVED mystery. This is a modern, open-ended concern. Shills and "debunkers" here try to avert efforts or create straw-man arguments in order to ridicule and obfuscate (confuse) the issue. This environment of confusion and misdirection allows TPTB (The Powers That Be) to operate more freely, furthering their hidden agendas while keeping the sleeping masses unaware, uncertain, unsure and living in fear.

Why attack the investigation of such a mystery? Why ridicule? Why dismiss and ignore evidence, going for tidbits to dispute as if that dismisses the entirety of the whole?

lmao so your saying its about imagination

sounds about right its all in the believers imagination

reply to post by GhostLancer

Really? And you take the government's information as gospel to disprove/debunk a theory that states SAID GOVERNMENT is spraying chemicals over our cities? So, you are willing to take their word for the latest on Morgellon's disease? Wow. I am awestruck.

So what your saying is that I should not trust the government,but I should trust people like Will Thomas,Cliff Carnicom, Alex Jones and so on because they say the government is doing this yet they can't prove this assertion,Gotcha....

As far as Morgellons,can you actually show any proof from any scientific study that proves this is an actual disease.Oh BTW the CDC was not the only one who was doing that study,because a little company called Kaiser Permanente also helped in the study. You do know who Kaiser Permanente is don't you?

At Kaiser Permanente, physicians are responsible for medical decisions. The Permanente Medical Groups, which provide care for Kaiser Permanente members, continuously develop and refine medical practices to help ensure that care is delivered in the most efficient and effective manner possible.

Kaiser Permanente’s creation resulted from the challenge of providing Americans medical care during the Great Depression and World War II, when most people could not afford to go to a doctor.

xnet.kp.org...

But of course your going to say they are all in it together yet you can't prove this is actually a conspiracy can you?

reply to post by GhostLancer

This is an example of the classic "debunker" tactic of attacking the person, not the idea. When at a loss with facts and examples, go for the person, not the ideas/theories presented.

Let's see has anything he presented on his show actually been proven to be true?

And how is this so called classic debunker tactic when it is only the truth? It isn't about the person it is all about his line of thinking and that being the government is out to get you which is simply proposterous.

Originally posted by Advancedboy
Don`t run away from this video. We know that persistent contrails can be formed only at high alittudes, so we must assume that the contrails seen in this video are at alittude 8-10 km in troposphere. Just tell me who left these so called contrails there?

www.youtube.com...

8-10 km isn't actually all that high - 32-40,000 feet - well within the altitude range of passenger jets.

The patterns are classic holding pattern ovals that look like they are moving with the wind.

What is the problem?

Originally posted by Advancedboy
Don`t run away from this video. We know that persistent contrails can be formed only at high alittudes, so we must assume that the contrails seen in this video are at alittude 8-10 km in troposphere. Just tell me who left these so called contrails there?

www.youtube.com...

A plane left them. I've seen contrails like that a couple of times.
contrailscience.com...

Track of a plane:


Resultant contrails blown by the wind:

Originally posted by GhostLancer

Originally posted by Uncinus

Originally posted by GhostLancer
Okay, let me rephrase in simpler terms: The WHITE STUFF that comes out of jetliners that looks like thin, vaprous clouds NORMALLY disperses quickly unless there is more to it that water vapor --or ice crystals--- or whatever that "normal" stuff consists of. That's what I meant when I said water vapor. I mis-wrote.

Can you explain why you think that? It appears to contradict all known physics and history of water and contrails.

That's a nice, neat, compact statement that in and of itself has nothing factual in it but an unbacked assertion. You state that it "appears to contradict all known physics and history fo water and contrails" says that you are not aware of "all nown physics and history of water adn contrails."

At least in my assertions I stated that there are, of course, exceptions to the examples I provided. Yours is such a sweeping statement that it is almost certainly false.

It's a nice neat statement because it's true.

Ice crystals suspended in ice-supersaturated air will persist indefinitely. That's just physics. It's also history, because that's always what has been observed.

It's kind of like: if you keep ice-cream in a working freezer, operating below freezing, then the ice-cream will not melt. It's that basic. Not only is it physics, it's also backed up by the history and personal experience of millions of people with freezers.

Originally posted by nihilistnick

Originally posted by Thorazine

Originally posted by GhostLancer
according to the information that has been presented to me, it is indeed a fact that jet contrails disperse rather quickly as they are a thin streak of water vapor in a large, expansive sky.

Alas, said information is wrong...contrails are NOT water vapor...water VAPOR is invisible...a contrails gets its name from the aforementioned vapor condensing into droplets- which then freeze into ice crystals...because its well below zero at typical flight levels...

scholar.google.com...

One thing you have to understand is that many of these planes are flying way too low for the freezing air to cause ice crystals to form. I've seen it with my own friggin' eyes. I'm just looking for an explanation - To why I see distinct lines in the sky with clear start and stop points which trashes your theory of high-altitude planes, unless you expect them to magically jump from high altitude to a lower one when the trail suddenly disappears. It can even be seen with high-altitude planes with two contrails. One quickly dissipating, and the other starting and stopping. I see them flying over Athens every once and a while. Especially evening time in downtown Athens while everyone's flocking to the bars. And they'll be everywhere by morning time, if not a hazy fog that envelops the area for a few days at a time. The weather is strange for summer time here in Georgia. Lite sprinkles over foggy skies or upper atmosphere thunder without any noise. Anyone will common sense and two eyes will realize there is at least something quirky going on. Who are you working for buddy? Because I'm working for truth - Seeking the truth and defending the curious.

I am curious as to how you know...or think you know what the altitude is of any particular plane? Standing on the ground and looking up and guessing is probably not the best approach.

I have heard many claims of planes "too low" but never have actually seen any evidence of it. EVERY youtube video shows high altitude jets leaving contrails at altitudes one would expect to see contrails..

It is very well understood why one might see different types of trails in the sky- different altitudes, different layers of air etc...the same thing with "starting and stopping"

Why do clouds start and stop? Why is there a cloud at one altitude but not another?

See here for more details:

contrailscience.com...

contrailscience.com...

It's kind of like: if you keep ice-cream in a working freezer, operating below freezing, then the ice-cream will not melt. It's that basic. Not only is it physics, it's also backed up by the history and personal experience of millions of people with freezers.

Haha... This made me laugh... It's also a fantastic way of explaining the science behind it... Very nice..

I will say though, you're wasting your time... This kind of conspiracy theory has the same make-up as religious beliefs. You're never going to change a believer's mind with mere facts. Any evidence to the contrary will be dismissed as either inaccurate or deliberate misinformation, which of course you cannot disprove (because it's impossible- see: Russel's teapot on this subject). The ONLY way that this argument could be closed for believers is that they are proved 100%, beyond any doubt correct, and, as this will never happen (because it's tosh) this argument will persist indefinitely (you can apply this to pretty much any other conspiracy theory on here a well seeing as they mostly rely on anecdotal evidence and creative interpretation/blatant disregard of the available information).

Originally posted by Milkflavour

It's kind of like: if you keep ice-cream in a working freezer, operating below freezing, then the ice-cream will not melt. It's that basic. Not only is it physics, it's also backed up by the history and personal experience of millions of people with freezers.

Haha... This made me laugh... It's also a fantastic way of explaining the science behind it... Very nice..

I will say though, you're wasting your time... This kind of conspiracy theory has the same make-up as religious beliefs. You're never going to change a believer's mind with mere facts. Any evidence to the contrary will be dismissed as either inaccurate or deliberate misinformation, which of course you cannot disprove (because it's impossible- see: Russel's teapot on this subject). The ONLY way that this argument could be closed for believers is that they are proved 100%, beyond any doubt correct, and, as this will never happen (because it's tosh) this argument will persist indefinitely (you can apply this to pretty much any other conspiracy theory on here a well seeing as they mostly rely on anecdotal evidence and creative interpretation/blatant disregard of the available information).

edit on 21-7-2012 by Milkflavour because: Fixed quote

I'd agree there for the "true believers" - they won't change, or it they do it's because they change very slowly over the years. But there's are plenty of other people who have simply been taken in because it initially sounds reasonable. Plenty of people who are unnecessarily scared or wasting time because of the hoax. So it's useful for them.

I'd agree there for the "true believers" - they won't change, or it they do it's because they change very slowly over the years. But there's are plenty of other people who have simply been taken in because it initially sounds reasonable. Plenty of people who are unnecessarily scared or wasting time because of the hoax. So it's useful for them.

Yeah, you're right actually, I didn't even think of those people. I guess it's because most of the people 'contributing' to this thread seem to fall into the 'mind made-up' category....

And in case anyone starts accusing me of the same: the only thing my mind is made up is to base my opinions on actual, varifiable evidence. Once it is proven with actual data and evidence I'll be straight out of my front door making sure everyone I come into contact with is aware of it. Until then, I sticking with "it's BS"'

reply to post by Thorazine


Your argument carries little weight. But reading your past posts point out your cunning argumentative skills in ignoring plausible evidence and video footage (and there ARE videos of low-altitude planes laying chemtrails from the tail - not the engines where the hot air would cause water vapor to condense), to which you respond by pointing out little meaningless facts. You fail to address how a plane can have dual chemtrails, both from the engines that quickly dissipate, and one from the tail which NEVER dissipates. The wind blows it around until it turns into a fog. And you, nor I, will ever explain why a small unmarked plane (WITHOUT A CONTRAIL OF ANY KIND because it was so low, obviously monitoring us and going up and down the river looking for kayaks) sprayed a clear line of chemicals with a start and stop point directly above us (perpendicular) at extremely low altitude - be it heavy metals or some kind of neurotoxin - while a friend and I were kayaking, as I clearly discussed in my first post here. It would make sense that the government or some agency would disperse some kind of chemical for ominous means above the Broad River, as its a common place for hippies, stoners, and especially trippers to go hang out and hallucinate. Open your eyes man. This isn't some kind of religion that people believe in. This is something that the government (you perhaps?) doesn't want you to notice or ask any questions about. I'm curious - how much are they paying you? Or are you just suckered into believing everything you hear on the news the disinformation other counter intelligence agents put out there? I sense there will be no reconciliation in this argument and its futile to keep arguing with you idiots.

Stay cool,
Nick

reply to post by Advancedboy


I am just wondering if you translated the uploader comments to English, because this is what is says translated...

We sprayed extreme
There are three crop dusters flown in formation

Not sure, but the last time I checked crop dusting wasn't a chemtrail.

Originally posted by nihilistnick
reply to post by Thorazine

 

Your argument carries little weight. But reading your past posts point out your cunning argumentative skills in ignoring plausible evidence and video footage (and there ARE videos of low-altitude planes laying chemtrails from the tail - not the engines where the hot air would cause water vapor to condense), to which you respond by pointing out little meaningless facts. You fail to address how a plane can have dual chemtrails, both from the engines that quickly dissipate, and one from the tail which NEVER dissipates. The wind blows it around until it turns into a fog. And you, nor I, will ever explain why a small unmarked plane (WITHOUT A CONTRAIL OF ANY KIND because it was so low, obviously monitoring us and going up and down the river looking for kayaks) sprayed a clear line of chemicals with a start and stop point directly above us (perpendicular) at extremely low altitude - be it heavy metals or some kind of neurotoxin - while a friend and I were kayaking, as I clearly discussed in my first post here. It would make sense that the government or some agency would disperse some kind of chemical for ominous means above the Broad River, as its a common place for hippies, stoners, and especially trippers to go hang out and hallucinate. Open your eyes man. This isn't some kind of religion that people believe in. This is something that the government (you perhaps?) doesn't want you to notice or ask any questions about. I'm curious - how much are they paying you? Or are you just suckered into believing everything you hear on the news the disinformation other counter intelligence agents put out there? I sense there will be no reconciliation in this argument and its futile to keep arguing with you idiots.

Stay cool,
Nick

You do realize that suggesting that people are paid to come on here and argue with chemtrail believers makes you look childish, and pretty much negates your point? Are you one of those 'trippers'? Or maybe you're just a kid or something? I mean the very idea of some shadowy government agency having a meeting and some bloke standing up and saying "we should pay people to go onto conspiracy forums and have arguments with those pesky little chemtrail believers, those guys are really causing us problems with their 'look up, this is not normal' rationale". Yeah, for sure.

You got a video of a low flying plane laying a chemtrail? If you have post it.

reply to post by nihilistnick

Your argument carries little weight. But reading your past posts point out your cunning argumentative skills in ignoring plausible evidence and video footage (and there ARE videos of low-altitude planes laying chemtrails from the tail - not the engines where the hot air would cause water vapor to condense), to which you respond by pointing out little meaningless facts. You fail to address how a plane can have dual chemtrails, both from the engines that quickly dissipate, and one from the tail which NEVER dissipates.

Do you mean something like this...



Not the best drawing but it shows the area that looks as though it is coming from a tail when you look close and guess what you see?

That's right the contrail actually looks to be coming from the tail when it actually forms in front of the tail section and actually comes from directly behind the engines.

This type of contrail will actually look like it is coming from the tail section when it all is the perspective you are seeing it from.

In fact here is another pic that shows the same thing from a different perspective...

Originally posted by nihilistnick
reply to post by Thorazine

 

Your argument carries little weight. But reading your past posts point out your cunning argumentative skills in ignoring plausible evidence and video footage (and there ARE videos of low-altitude planes laying chemtrails from the tail - not the engines where the hot air would cause water vapor to condense), to which you respond by pointing out little meaningless facts. You fail to address how a plane can have dual chemtrails, both from the engines that quickly dissipate, and one from the tail which NEVER dissipates. The wind blows it around until it turns into a fog. And you, nor I, will ever explain why a small unmarked plane (WITHOUT A CONTRAIL OF ANY KIND because it was so low, obviously monitoring us and going up and down the river looking for kayaks) sprayed a clear line of chemicals with a start and stop point directly above us (perpendicular) at extremely low altitude - be it heavy metals or some kind of neurotoxin - while a friend and I were kayaking, as I clearly discussed in my first post here. It would make sense that the government or some agency would disperse some kind of chemical for ominous means above the Broad River, as its a common place for hippies, stoners, and especially trippers to go hang out and hallucinate. Open your eyes man. This isn't some kind of religion that people believe in. This is something that the government (you perhaps?) doesn't want you to notice or ask any questions about. I'm curious - how much are they paying you?

Stay cool,
Nick

...and there you have it. Faced with clear, plausible explanations of some of things you described...your reaction is to dismiss it entirely and accuse me of being a shill.

Such a predictable but tired reaction that is far too common...what is the deal with that??

You asked why you saw 2 different types of trails in the sky...I presented a perfectly logical and KNOWN explanation- which you dismissed without any logic or reason.

You asked why you saw trails start and stop- again -I presented a perfectly logical and KNOWN explanation- which you dismissed without any logic or reason.

So be it...no skin off my teeth.

Your story regarding the plane on the river is interesting...but is not substantially related to what the "chemtrail" meme is...its a small, low flying plane dispersing something...sounds like mosquito abatement if you ask me...it certainly isn't what the internet herd cries are "chemtrails".

Is it possible that YOU were amongst the "hippies, stoners, and trippers" and were in, in fact hallucinating?

Just askin'...

Curious- did you feel any effects of this "neurotoxin" ?

Also, give the fact that there is no evidence that "chemtrails" exist...it IS very much like a religion...one must have faith in "chemtrails"

reply to post by nihilistnick

And you, nor I, will ever explain why a small unmarked plane (WITHOUT A CONTRAIL OF ANY KIND because it was so low, obviously monitoring us and going up and down the river looking for kayaks) sprayed a clear line of chemicals with a start and stop point directly above us (perpendicular) at extremely low altitude - be it heavy metals or some kind of neurotoxin - while a friend and I were kayaking, as I clearly discussed in my first post here. It would make sense that the government or some agency would disperse some kind of chemical for ominous means above the Broad River, as its a common place for hippies, stoners, and especially trippers to go hang out and hallucinate.

Yeah, stoners and trippers lazily floating down some river are a big threat. Get real. Perhaps before your next toke-n-float you could check the schedule for aerial mosquito spraying with local health/environmental services. Wetlands and such in the riparian zone along rivers can often only be reached by aircraft for effective mosquito control. With an increase in certain mosquito borne diseases in some regions, including the Carolinas, there has been an increase in aerial mosquito control in response.

Here's an example:

According to Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) regulations, please be advised that BCMC may conduct aerial spray missions during daylight hours from July 16 - 20, 2012. We use low-flying aircraft to apply Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)-registered public health insecticides during ideal weather. We do not treat the salt marsh habitats for adult mosquitoes during these aerial operations.

www.co.beaufort.sc.us...

And...

HORRY COUNTY, SC (WMBF) Horry County is planning aerial mosquito spraying, weather permitting, in two communities Thursday.

Due to the recent confirmed reports of Eastern Equine Encephalitis (EEE) in two horses in Horry County, the Horry County Stormwater Department will conduct aerial mosquito spraying Thursday night in Galivants Ferry and Nichols.

www.wistv.com...

Crop dusting is another explanation.