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A Challenge to Chemtrail Believers - Explain this 1969 Issue of Popular Science:

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posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 02:18 PM
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Originally posted by SpittinTruth
Perhaps, we should just call them "trails"...since neither side knows EXACTLY what they are. Aren't both parties, chemtrail and contrail believers, purely SPECULATING? The only difference, for me, is that it IS effecting the weather. Whatever "IT" is!



No.

We do know EXACTLY what a contrail is and how it behaves. we DO KNOW that water vapor emitted in jet exhaust condenses and freezes into ice crystals...and that these ice crystals can and often do persist, spread and cover the sky in a haze of cirrus cloud.

This is FACT.

This has been observed since the 1920s, studied for decades, replicated in labs, and scientifically proven by the Laws of Nature. These trails have been sampled IN SITU- right from the very plume- in the atmosphere as they persisted and spread. They have been tracked via satellite and well as other instruments for hours and even days.

That contrails often persist and spread and cover the sky in a haze of cirrus cloud is FACT.

Irrefutable, non-negotiable fact.

So, seeing a trail behave this way and claiming it is something other than a contrail is what is speculation.

Speculation based on what? not remembering trails doing this? based on seeing lots of them at once seemingly in a pattern- despite record growth in air traffic over the last 20yrs and basic air travel organized in a pattern? Specious claims on the internet?

Moreover, we DO NOT know that these trails effect weather to any substantial degree...they may effect climate in the long run but that is not the same as effecting weather.

[Edit- they do create cirrus cloud coverage and that is weather- but to what degree this changes any weather patterns or effects precip is unknown]
edit on 19-7-2012 by Thorazine because: (no reason given)




posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 02:21 PM
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Originally posted by Uncinus

Originally posted by SpittinTruth
Maaaaaan...people aren't awake. They can only remember back 40+ years...completely IGNORING the fact, that these people (TPTB) have been running and ruling our planet, for THOUSANDS of years. They don't plan for 10 or 15 years...they plan things, 100's of years, in ADVANCE! You're the one that's slow and behind!

You really should learn something about the inhabitants that rule our world!


Hmm, so they were planning the chemtrail thing from before planes were even invented? I'm sorry, but that just sounds ridiculous.

Anyway, that's not the point. The point is that persistent contrails WERE around 40 years ago, and chemtrail promoters are deliberately misleading people about that.


I'm sure sending pictures, videos and text messages through the air, sounded ridiculous as well. Keep talking....you're convincing me more.
You know soooooooo much about our atmosphere.



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 02:27 PM
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Originally posted by Thorazine

Originally posted by SpittinTruth
Perhaps, we should just call them "trails"...since neither side knows EXACTLY what they are. Aren't both parties, chemtrail and contrail believers, purely SPECULATING? The only difference, for me, is that it IS effecting the weather. Whatever "IT" is!



No.

We do know EXACTLY what a contrail is and how it behaves. we DO KNOW that water vapor emitted in jet exhaust condenses and freezes into ice crystals...and that these ice crystals can and often do persist, spread and cover the sky in a haze of cirrus cloud.

This is FACT.

This has been observed since the 1920s, studied for decades, replicated in labs, and scientifically proven by the Laws of Nature. These trails have been sampled IN SITU- right from the very plume- in the atmosphere as they persisted and spread. They have been tracked via satellite and well as other instruments for hours and even days.

That contrails often persist and spread and cover the sky in a haze of cirrus cloud is FACT.

Irrefutable, non-negotiable fact.

So, seeing a trail behave this way and claiming it is something other than a contrail is what is speculation.

Speculation based on what? not remembering trails doing this? based on seeing lots of them at once seemingly in a pattern- despite record growth in air traffic over the last 20yrs and basic air travel organized in a pattern? Specious claims on the internet?

Moreover, we DO NOT know that these trails effect weather to any substantial degree...they may effect climate in the long run but that is not the same as effecting weather.


How is it IRREFUTABLE??? Where are these FACTS and by whom? The same people EMPLOYED by the government, or the same ones ADMITTING they ARE spraying? Whether it be to block the suns rays or not; they're still SPRAYING. Also, do you THINK someone is gonna speak out? Man, where does the stupidity end? Yeah.....ok...those are "normal" persisting "contrails". Whatever you want to call them.

Nothing like seeing the sun disappear, on a PERFECTLY sunny day. Your "facts" are crap...and based on NOTHING!

Also, please explain this: why is MONSANTO's name, all over the place, when you RESEARCH regarding GEO-ENGINEERING?



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 02:28 PM
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Related, there's a 1980 TV news story on the same topic


And a Facebook group is trying to say it's fake.
www.facebook.com...


I imagine then they would also think this 1969 Popular Science article is fake.



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 02:36 PM
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In their quest to remain top dog in the kill chain, the purveyors of perpetual war have deliberately dimmed earth’s life-giving sunlight,5 and reduced atmospheric visibility with lung-clogging particulates and polymers.6 This ecological terrorism has severely compromised public health, according to thousands of testimonials. Years of mass appeals to legislators, media and military officials for information, and for cessation of catastrophic atmospheric degradation, have fallen on deaf bureaucratic ears. Public awareness of what befalls us remains as murky as our skies because those “in the know” are muzzled by national secrecy laws and Americans have no authority to challenge matters of national security. Left to gather clues, we know this much so far:

Teller estimated that commercial aircraft could be used to spew these particles at a cost of 33 cents a pound.34 This gives credence to a report by an airline manager, forced by a compulsory non-disclosure agreement to remain anonymous, that commercial aircraft have been co-opted to assist the military in consummating Project Cloverleaf.35 A 1991 Hughes aircraft patent confirms that sunscreen particulate materials can be run through jet engines.36 A science textbook now used in some public schools discusses the sunscreen project by showing a large orange-red jet with the caption, “Jet engines running on richer fuel would add particles to the atmosphere to create a sunscreen.” The logo on the plane says “Particle Air.”37 The implications of this crucial information should not be understated. A program to make America’s millions of annual jet flights a source of specially designed particulate pollution is serious business.


Probably not a credible source, right?



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 02:39 PM
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Deep Throat: "Mister Mulder, why are those like yourself, who believe in the existence of extra-terrestrial life on Earth, not entirely persuaded by all the evidence to the contrary?"

Mulder: "Because, all the evidence to the contrary is not entirely dissuasive."



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 02:39 PM
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Originally posted by Uncinus
Chemtrail believers claim that persistent contrails are a new thing, and they call the persistent trails "chemtrails". They also claims that contrails don't last a long time, and they certainly don't spread out and cause cirrus clouds and overcast skies. They also claim the chemtrails started in the late 1990s.

And yet, here's an issue of Popular Science, from 1969, 43 years ago, which says:






How Jet Planes affect weather

The reflectivity of the earth is also altered by jet contrails, say Dr. Walter Orr Roberts, director of the National Center for Atmospheric Research.

Contrails, Dr. Roberts explains, do not simply spread out at the 30-40,000-foot altitudes where jets fly, but spawn cirrus clouds by seeding the upper atmosphere with ice crystals from the water vapor in jet exhaust. On a clear day, you can often see this happening near heavily traveled airways.

"It is almost certain that on many occasions - 30 to 40 days a year, say - the cause of cirrus cloud cover can take in a substantial part of a continent, perhaps half of the U.S., and has a substantial influence on our radiation budget"

- Popular Science, May 1969, Page 76


So if contrails did this 43 years ago, and back then they were doing it for 30 to 40 days of the year, then why do some people insist that this is something new? Why the mantra of "contrails fade away, chemtrails persist and spread"? Clearly contrails quite frequently persist and spread, at least according to the science of 43 years ago.

So consider your options here, what could be going on?

A) The Popular Science Article is a modern fake. Clearly not true, Popular Science was a magazine with a very high circulation, and there are thousands of copies of this issue still in existence, all of which are the same. This particular copy I bought on eBay for $3. Many people have collections that include this copy. It's impossible for it to be a modern fake unless that includes having a time machine.

B) The Popular Science Article is 1969 Propaganda, brainwashing people for the chemtrails to come. If this were true it would be quite breathtakingly ambitious, risky, and entirely nonsensical. Why would they put an article in a magazine about something that they were not planning to do for 30 years? Why would they put descriptions of things that anyone with eyes could see were not happening at the time? They expect nobody to notice this blatant lie for 30 years?

C) The Popular Science Article is true. Contrails do quite often persist and spread and turn into cirrus clouds and affect the weather. The claims of movies like "What In The World Are They Spraying" are lies.

So what do you think, chemtrail believers? One of the above? Something else? Clearly someone is lying to you. Is it me? Is it Popular Science from 43 years ago? Or is it Michael J. Murphy?

If you can explain these patents, I will take a crack at debunking your assumptions.
globalskywatch.com...



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 02:41 PM
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This sounds EXACTLY like some of you, here, on ATS. hmmmmm

n a world gone mad, there is never any shortage of “de-bunkers” who choose to make it their mission (perhaps paid assignment) to dispute and deny the actions of a power structure run amuck. Their dedication toward constantly and aggressively hounding those sincerely engaged in the effort to expose an issue of grave concern to an unaware population are truly impressive. The “de-bunking” information they post could seem to be legitimate those that are not well informed on the issue of “geoengineering” and that have not investigated on their own. Off course they use the usual “conspiracy theorist” tack that is at this point all to worn out. There are a select few “de bunkers” whose names always show up. They post impressive looking charts and graphs on censored “de-bunking” sites that could certainly sway those that have not looked into the dire issue of SAG (stratospheric aerosol geoengineering) and SRM (solar radiation management).
They wouldn't be talking about you, would they?



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 02:44 PM
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Originally posted by SpittinTruth
How is it IRREFUTABLE??? Where are these FACTS and by whom? The same people EMPLOYED by the government, or the same ones ADMITTING they ARE spraying? Whether it be to block the suns rays or not; they're still SPRAYING. Also, do you THINK someone is gonna speak out? Man, where does the stupidity end? Yeah.....ok...those are "normal" persisting "contrails". Whatever you want to call them.

Nothing like seeing the sun disappear, on a PERFECTLY sunny day. Your "facts" are crap...and based on NOTHING!

Also, please explain this: why is MONSANTO's name, all over the place, when you RESEARCH regarding GEO-ENGINEERING?


So you think hundreds of thousands of meteorologists and atmospheric scientists (as well as even more amateur like myself) all over the world, in Russia, India, Indonesia, Brazil, Canada, Germany etc etc have been involved in this conspiracy over the past few decades. That they have deliberately manipulated science for 80 or more years in order to con people into thinking what they see is something else. And every raw meteorological student on attending university in every country in the world is indocrinated into the ancient and sacret order of chemtrailers?

Wow! Faking the Moon landings would be a five minute job for these guys



Wouldn't it just be easier, if they were to spray chemtrails, to make them something other than water ice, so we didn't see them?



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 02:45 PM
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Do the elite not breathe the same air as us?



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 02:46 PM
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reply to post by GoldenRuled
 

Oops...i bet they didn't see that coming.


Let me give them another bone, to chew on.

Monsanto DOES own patents that appear to mitigate the effects of geo-engineering, that can be applied to a whole host of fruits, trees, grains and veggies. A quick patent search brings up 3,981 hits for Monsanto and Stress Tolerance. Mendel Biotechnology is partners with Monsanto in several of these patents. This is taken from one of the joint patents:

Still not enough proof, right?



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 02:47 PM
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We dont see chemtrails at all - Its all contrails. Chemtrails are so fine they disperse into the atmosphere invisibly, unseen. The government isnt /that/ basic when it comes to spraying.

At least thats my theory.



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 02:48 PM
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Originally posted by AndyMayhew

Originally posted by SpittinTruth
How is it IRREFUTABLE??? Where are these FACTS and by whom? The same people EMPLOYED by the government, or the same ones ADMITTING they ARE spraying? Whether it be to block the suns rays or not; they're still SPRAYING. Also, do you THINK someone is gonna speak out? Man, where does the stupidity end? Yeah.....ok...those are "normal" persisting "contrails". Whatever you want to call them.

Nothing like seeing the sun disappear, on a PERFECTLY sunny day. Your "facts" are crap...and based on NOTHING!

Also, please explain this: why is MONSANTO's name, all over the place, when you RESEARCH regarding GEO-ENGINEERING?


So you think hundreds of thousands of meteorologists and atmospheric scientists (as well as even more amateur like myself) all over the world, in Russia, India, Indonesia, Brazil, Canada, Germany etc etc have been involved in this conspiracy over the past few decades. That they have deliberately manipulated science for 80 or more years in order to con people into thinking what they see is something else. And every raw meteorological student on attending university in every country in the world is indocrinated into the ancient and sacret order of chemtrailers?

Wow! Faking the Moon landings would be a five minute job for these guys



Wouldn't it just be easier, if they were to spray chemtrails, to make them something other than water ice, so we didn't see them?


How elaborate of a plan, do you think 9-11 was. They had to not only pull off that staged event, they had to make us believe it, AND cover up all the lies, and holes. Like Building #7

Geesh, where are the INTELLIGENT people??? No wonder why most are in the 99%. You still think INSIDE the box!!!!



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 02:51 PM
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Originally posted by SpittinTruth

Originally posted by Thorazine

Originally posted by SpittinTruth
Perhaps, we should just call them "trails"...since neither side knows EXACTLY what they are. Aren't both parties, chemtrail and contrail believers, purely SPECULATING? The only difference, for me, is that it IS effecting the weather. Whatever "IT" is!



No.

We do know EXACTLY what a contrail is and how it behaves. we DO KNOW that water vapor emitted in jet exhaust condenses and freezes into ice crystals...and that these ice crystals can and often do persist, spread and cover the sky in a haze of cirrus cloud.

This is FACT.

This has been observed since the 1920s, studied for decades, replicated in labs, and scientifically proven by the Laws of Nature. These trails have been sampled IN SITU- right from the very plume- in the atmosphere as they persisted and spread. They have been tracked via satellite and well as other instruments for hours and even days.

That contrails often persist and spread and cover the sky in a haze of cirrus cloud is FACT.

Irrefutable, non-negotiable fact.

So, seeing a trail behave this way and claiming it is something other than a contrail is what is speculation.

Speculation based on what? not remembering trails doing this? based on seeing lots of them at once seemingly in a pattern- despite record growth in air traffic over the last 20yrs and basic air travel organized in a pattern? Specious claims on the internet?

Moreover, we DO NOT know that these trails effect weather to any substantial degree...they may effect climate in the long run but that is not the same as effecting weather.


How is it IRREFUTABLE??? Where are these FACTS and by whom? The same people EMPLOYED by the government, or the same ones ADMITTING they ARE spraying? Whether it be to block the suns rays or not; they're still SPRAYING. Also, do you THINK someone is gonna speak out? Man, where does the stupidity end? Yeah.....ok...those are "normal" persisting "contrails". Whatever you want to call them.



I guess the question is do you believe in empirical, observational based science? do you believe 2+2=4? Is t irrefutable?

The facts are water vapor condenses, freezes, persists and spreads.

these facts are irrefutable.

ANYONE- even you- could prove this to themselves..

Thus, contrails can and often do persist and spread.

...again, its a long observed, well understood result of air travel.

To suggest it is something else requires actual evidence- not speculation and insults.

Seeing trail persist and spread is NOT evidence since it is known to be a contrail.

Its basic science, basic logic...and shouldn't be that hard to understand.



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 02:53 PM
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reply to post by Mach5
 

This is a reasonable statement. There is no reason to believe that the dispersal of aerosols in the region of the tropopause would be visible from the surface.

Of course, there is no evidence that it is being done either.



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 02:56 PM
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reply to post by Uncinus
 


You can say it isn't chemtrails, just as easy as it is for someone to say it is, the fact of the matter is NO ONE can be sure. hell for all you know there could be a giant bunny in your computer that turns invisible every time you check under the case. My point though is you're wasting your time trying to disprove something to people who already have their minds made up, and judging by your avatar you love to disprove this theory every chance you get. Do you do it for self satisfaction?

scratch that viewing your info, you've made nothing but chemtrail threads, and most threads you've posted in are about it...Why? if it bothers you so much what people believe wouldn't it make more sense to just avoid it?
edit on 19-7-2012 by SolarIce because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 02:58 PM
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Originally posted by SpittinTruth

How is it IRREFUTABLE??? Where are these FACTS and by whom?


You don't remember this from physical science/earth science class in middle or high school? Geophysics in college?

SSEC: cimss.ssec.wisc.edu...
IAP: www.dlr.de...
NCSA: www.ncsa.illinois.edu...

I don't have a dog in this hunt and of course the burden of proof is on the chemtrail people to come up with evidence. I do find the previous post with links to patents interesting and will read further.

With all due respect, questioning the facts of rudimentary atmospheric physics takes the chemtrail wind out of your sails.



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 02:58 PM
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reply to post by SimonPeter
 
Don't get me wrong SimonPeter. I was not disputing your claim, just merely stating a logical fallacy is all.


-saige-



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 03:01 PM
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Originally posted by SpittinTruth
reply to post by GoldenRuled
 

Oops...i bet they didn't see that coming.


Let me give them another bone, to chew on.

Monsanto DOES own patents that appear to mitigate the effects of geo-engineering, that can be applied to a whole host of fruits, trees, grains and veggies. A quick patent search brings up 3,981 hits for Monsanto and Stress Tolerance. Mendel Biotechnology is partners with Monsanto in several of these patents. This is taken from one of the joint patents:

Still not enough proof, right?


So, you are saying that the only possible cause of stress in plants in geoengineering? That's rather a leap. You suggest that patents for more stress-resistent plants is somehow evidence that the trails in the sky that look like contrails are actually not contrails?

Maybe they just want crops that have better yields in more varied growing conditions. Wouldn't that be the obvious and expected reason?



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 03:02 PM
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Originally posted by SpittinTruth


Let me give them another bone, to chew on.

Monsanto DOES own patents that appear to mitigate the effects of geo-engineering, that can be applied to a whole host of fruits, trees, grains and veggies. A quick patent search brings up 3,981 hits for Monsanto and Stress Tolerance. Mendel Biotechnology is partners with Monsanto in several of these patents. This is taken from one of the joint patents:

Still not enough proof, right?



Considering that 8% of the earth's crust is aluminum...and in some places the level is much higher...and this FACT has made agriculture difficult since agriculture began...and that Monsanto and other seed companies have been trying to develop aluminum resistant seeds for decades because of the aluminum ALREADY found in the soil...

I hardly think that constitutes "proof" that a contrail is really a "chemtrail"

That is failed logic.

Moreover- of all those patents- which one is the smoking gun?? is it the crop dusting one? or the smoke generator? or the cloud seeding device??

just jumping to conclusions because its says "aerial" or "cloud" and claiming its "proof" really is not a logic based thought process nor does it help build credibility or your case at all...



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