Once Again The Mainstream News Oulets,More Propaganda On Syria, Syria is a Proxy War on Iran And Rus

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by OpinionatedB
you always have have you not? I have been very open about what I am all about...

No

Actually, To be brutally honest, unless you were posting something relevant or no topic I pretty much didn't pay much attention.

No offense.

I am not offended. Yes, the religion I follow is shia islam, but I may have a bit different take on life than some. I am not some freak of nature.

In my opinion, TPTB are right now backing a caliphate headed by the Muslim Brotherhood, and when they gain power the slaughter of shia begins....

In my estimation, it is that slaughter that TPTB are desirous of.

Originally posted by OpinionatedB
I am not offended. Yes, the religion I follow is shia islam, but I may have a bit different take on life than some. I am not some freak of nature.

Never implied you were.
It may surprise you to know that I have stated repeatedly here at ATS I personally have no issues with Islam. I do however have issues with Extremists of all faiths. That includes those of Islam. I'm also no fan of Sharia law either.

In my opinion, TPTB are right now backing a caliphate headed by the Muslim Brotherhood, and when they gain power the slaughter of shia begins....

Well this is a Conspiracy site that does have a rather large following of alternative news influence. It doesn't surprise me that there are bits of Gloom and Doom paranoia sprinkled in some members perspectives. But to me that's just as Paranoid as some in Israel who are freaking out and think Iran will drop the bomb on them as soon as they finish cooking it in those secret underground bunkers where they are developing peaceful uses

In my estimation, it is that slaughter that TPTB are desirous of.

Well I'm glad you cleared that up.

reply to post by SLAYER69


I did not learn that we would be slaughtered by the wahabbis on this site dear. I rather learned most of that in real life....

the Muslim Brotherhood are wahabbis or what they call themselves salafis.... the religion they follow is one of extremeism... and we are their worst enemy, they consider us for the most part to be obligatory to kill.

Should you not believe me, I have been long predicting, when they gain power in Syria you just watch, they plan to start killing, and they will be killing Christians, Shia, Alawiyyah and all the other minority sects...

they have videos out promising our deaths... they are just in arabic hun

I dont care for extremism either...

I was thinking this would happen just the other day over my dead body, but i realize too, Assad is not someone to pull for either, so if we must fall into their hand for a little while, it wont be forever

I do have faith our blood will be avenged

reply to post by OpinionatedB


I appreciate your views on the subject.

I'm a bit more pragmatic. Iran and the Saudis .. Excuse me, but the Sunni and Shiites have been at it for over 1,100+ years. I wrote a reply once a few years ago. Expressing that maybe the Shiites and Sunni needed to finally really have it out so as to settle this long standing rivalry between Riyadh and Tehran... I mean Sunni and Shiites.

The reason why the Islamic wave that covered large parts of the region after Mohamed did his thing collapsed was due to too much fragmentation between the various sects which were separated by large and vast territorial differences.

Do you honestly believe they will be wiped out?

reply to post by SLAYER69


Here is the thing, yes, the Sunni have long been killing the Shia, it is why shia ended up congregating in Iran, many fled for their lives, and simply ended up all in the same area, it was far long ago from the Sunni's and Shia were safe there.

there are small pockets of shia scattered, the ones who have to live in Saudia usually do not practice openly, in bahrain they are second class citizens even though they are the majority.... there are shia also in Syria...

we keep separate for our own safety, but with western involvement, it is making our lives much less safe. Places such as Syria where under Assad there really is religious freedom shia are safe, but western involvement is making sure of our deaths....

Western countries as soon as Syria falls will start bombing Iran, the ONLY country in the world that is Shia, and where all of our centers of learning are, and all of our books of ahadith.... When you all come after Iran, you are not coming after Iranian leaders, you are coming after our religion itself..... that is what will not bode well for any of us

I believe that throughout the middle east it will be open season on the Shia, ahadith tells us this will happen, it is written in prophecies that I am watching coming true every day. When the Muslim Brotherhood gains power, and the west goes after Iran, any shia in the middle east will be attempted to be killed. Many many will die.

We will not all be killed, and what happens after we fall into their hands for a while..... well.... our blood will be avenged, this is all in ahadith.

Most of us will not go down however without one hell of a fight.

Originally posted by OpinionatedB
Here is the thing, yes, the Sunni have long been killing the Shia, it is why shia ended up congregating in Iran, many fled for their lives, and simply ended up all in the same area, it was far long ago from the Sunni's and Shia were safe there.

I understand what you are saying. Trust me. History is one of my favorite subjects. Going back to the dawn of civilization and everything in between. The problem I have with replies such as yours is that they will often include only one side of the equation. Leaving out all the dirty laundry in their closet so to speak.

That's what I often try to do here at ATS. I try to call it down the middle but I usually get hit from both sides for not playing the game of [Either/Or] I've called Israel out numerous times on their activities. I'll call Iran and Saudi Arabia out on theirs too. Hell, I call my own Government out. Why wouldn't I be critical of all the Rest including Moscow and Beijing while we are at it?

I'm sorry, but, simply because Israel or the US or my cousin Vinny act likes asses doesn't mean Iran, Russia or even yes, Syria get a free pass.

Syria has had a very long history going back several decades of supporting certain groups who are and were known for certain covert activities. Turn about is fair play. It seems their ghosts have come back to haunt them

Yes.

You were saying?

Most of us will not go down however without one hell of a fight.

I stopped shadow boxing a long time ago.

reply to post by SLAYER69


So basically you are saying that U.S. can quote "act like an ass" and Isreal can too, but what is good for the goose is not good for the gander?

What business is our lives to you? Why do you feel the need to control us?

This is about corporate America being pissed....

Originally posted by OpinionatedB
So basically you are saying that U.S. can quote "act like an ass" and Isreal can too, but what is good for the goose is not good for the gander?

No

That's your take on it.
What I'm saying, is that when ANY of them. My Government, Israel and YES...Gasp... Syria and Iran included act like asses I'll call them on it.

What business is our lives to you? Why do you feel the need to control us?

Do me a favor....

Quote where I've implied that?

I'll wait right here hon...

This is about corporate America being pissed....

Well that's probably true to a certain extent. There is no denying that. But will you see Syrian and Iranian parts in all the fun and games? Don't sit there and try to blow smoke around about how they are the poor victims. It takes two to tango.

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by OpinionatedB
(nope, not one thing to do with the Alawiyyah or the Wahabbis.... just us....Shia... because we know what this is really about)

AND

We all now know what you're all about.

I don't.

Can someone explain it to me?

And how we arrive at that conclusion?

The path from there to there?

Originally posted by OpinionatedB
I believe that throughout the middle east it will be open season on the Shia, ahadith tells us this will happen, it is written in prophecies that I am watching coming true every day. When the Muslim Brotherhood gains power, and the west goes after Iran, any shia in the middle east will be attempted to be killed. Many many will die.

We will not all be killed, and what happens after we fall into their hands for a while..... well.... our blood will be avenged, this is all in ahadith.

Most of us will not go down however without one hell of a fight.

This happens very, very, very rarely, but on this occasion I may just have to agree with Slayer. If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

I do not for a moment doubt that Iran is stuck in between a rock and hard place geopolitically, but they are doing nothing to suggest that they are any more worthy of being saved then any other fundamentalist state. And it seems to me that you are advocating perpetuating that violence in your call for 'prophesised' retribution. It doesn't matter what has been prophesised, as individuals we have the ability to halt the continuation of hatred, and certainly, Iran and it's creation of Hezbollah is doing nothing to prove itself any less dangerous or extremist than any of the other sectarianists in the region. Personally, I can't see any victims here at all, only those willing to slaughter and be slaughtered in the hope that that will prove that their prophet is the best and rightful prophet.

When people talk about 'waking up', it isn't just about realising that wars and politics are driven by profiteers and business, it is also a matter of stopping those forces from pressing your buttons. You are doing completely the opposite, and if it wasn't for the fact that innocent children are getting caught in the cross-fire, I would say nenothtu was right, you should all be left to eradicate one another. And, that goes for the fundamentalist Christians and Jews too, and anyone else who seems to feel they and their way of life is ordained by 'God'.

Cut the strings and stop being a puppet. Your prophesies will come true only because you will make them come true.

reply to post by Biliverdin


The thing there is that Shiites are a minority sect everywhere but Iran. That leaves them sensitive to their vulnerability in any Wahabbist takeover. The same is true in Syria of the Alawites and all the other minority sects, including the Christians there. That feeling of vulnerability often drives people - not just Shiites, but PEOPLE, any people, any where who find themselves at the "mercy" of their enemy, to extreme views. The same happens right here in the US, and I expect if you analyse it, the UK as well. When people feel vulnerable, the first reaction is to go to a defensive posture, whether it's warranted or not - the vulnerable feeling drives it.

Even a cornered mouse will try to eat you up if it can't see the alternative, even though you may be trying to help it.

Sensitivity runs pretty close to the surface in the Middle East, because vulnerability does, too. It's not always a matter of "I'm gonna kill them because they don't believe like me", it's sometimes a matter of "If I don't kill them, they're going to kill me, my entire family, and my goats, too." I think that's the case here with the Shiite reaction to all this. They are wary of the Muslim Brotherhood, and it's apparent gathering of power in recent months, and rightfully so. The Muslim Brotherhood isn't the gaggle of cuddly teddy bears that our policy makers would have us believe. They are a catalyst for violence. Shia know this, because they live it. We in the west are on the outside looking in, and forever will be. A wise man told me years ago that "them furriners see things oddly only because they have to LIVE in it - we're just observers".

Now what I'm going to say next is going to sound harsh, and it sounds that way because it IS harsh, but sometimes life shakes out that way. "Saving the children" in the middle east is tilting at windmills. the only way to "save" them is to airlift them out of that mess, and immerse them in a different culture. They are not ours to kidnap, so it goes like it goes. A less charitable man said "nits grow into lice" during the Indian Wars in America as a justification for killing the women and kids, too. It's harsh, and it's crude, but it's the way of it. As long as they are immersed in that culture - not the RELIGION, but the culture, they are going to grow into more of the same, and the cycle perpetuates. it's been that way there since long before the advent of Islam, and the cycle has not been broken yet.

WE, by meddling in the internal affair there, and choosing sides, promoting the dangerous over the disorganized, are doing nothing at all to halt the cycle. We're going to make it even worse. It's those same kids we would all like to save who will instead do the suffering for OUR bad decisions in promoting the Muslim brotherhood, and the only ones who will survive are the ones who grow to perpetuate the cycle, the ones who grow into good little Wahabbis.

Those "kids" will eventually be the fighters who retake al-Andalus for the glory of Islam and the Caliphate. It won't be just Islamic kids suffering - it will be Spanish, Balkan, Indian, Cypriot, and a lot of other kids suffering.

And WE are making it happen, with the decisions we promote right now. Taking a stance against the Muslim Brotherhood is not just for the benefit of the Shiites - it's for ALL of us. In the orgiastic feeding frenzy going on at the moment, it seems to me a lot of people have lost sight of that - or been misdirected away from it.

That's why I say let Assad gas 'em if he wants to. We can deal with Assad at leisure any old time as long as he's still in isolation, but a united Muslim Brotherhood front all across North Africa and the Middle East will be a bit more of an intractable problem.

reply to post by nenothtu


There is no argument that you can ever make that will have me agreeing that it is okay to allow children to be caught up in conflict. I know and sadly understand the reality, but it is still not right. However, I hear what you're saying. You and I have discussed this before, and you should know that I have, as far as any of the groups concerned, a leaning towards Iran and a grudging respect for Hezbollah in regards to the overall playing field. Given what they are dealing with, they have remained a darn sight cleaner, operationally, than any of the other players involved. Not only that, but they are effectively evading infiltration and keeping their communications networks tight enough to evade prying ears. That, in and of itself, is awe inspiring.

That said, and while I acknowledge that the Iranians, and Shia's in general have every right to defend themselves and their way of life, what I baulk at is any mention of prophecy in this equation. It only exacerbates the situation and plays right into the hands of those who seek to criticise Iranian motivations. It is okay to defend yourself, more than okay, it is not okay to bring out pre-emptive calls for divine retribution or that it will bring forth the second-coming. That is propagandist bull# of the most naive order, by all means worship God however you see fit, but let's not be under the impression that any particular group's fantasy of the 'end times' is about to be realised and understand that such teachings are designed to manipulate and modify behaviour for the very end of creating such a self-fulfilling prophecy.

reply to post by Biliverdin


No, it's not right, but it's reality, sad though it may be. Neither you nor I will ever be able to change it - the only solution, as I mentioned, that I've been able to find so far is to remove the kids from the situation altogether, and I'm not sure I would if I could - they're not my kids to remove, and I'm not big on kidnapping. The players involved have the responsibility to get their own kids out of Dodge. There are people who stand ready to assist if they are sincere about protecting their kids by getting them out of the grease. Otherwise, harsh as it is, I have my own to look out for in lieu of kidnapping theirs.

As old and goofy as I am, I'd still be willing to man the guns to roll a convoy of kids out of there, and God, Allah, or Buddha help any stray soul that got in the way of my muzzle to stop me - just as long as it was the people responsible for protecting the kids who got the ball rolling. I'm sure I'm not alone. That, really, is about the only thing I could think of that would ever induce me to leave my own borders again. jumping up into the middle of someone else's fight just to pick a side so they can beat me down later in my own yard isn't even on my plate any more.

I would say that another solution is to simply let the entire culture eat itself until it goes extinct, but that hasn't happened in a 4000 year run, irrespective of the religion of the day, so I'm not sure it will ever burn itself out.

I do agree that the Shia should keep their prophecies internal, among themselves, just like the Christians should. Bringing your own prophecies to the table isn't going to convince anyone of another religion, who isn't going to believe a "foreign" (to their religion or lack thereof) prophecy any how. It just gives them a hook to hang their derision on, and solidifies their position in their own minds. I've noticed over the years that whether a prophecy is fulfilled or not is often in the eye of the beholder, and outsiders are just not going to see it the same way. There just isn't any way to win a secular or inter-religion argument by using a religious support structure to frame your own argument.

The same thing I say here of the Shi'a prophecies applies equally to the Christian prophecies concerning Armageddon. Non-Christians are just not going to care if the Christian God is tearing up a patch in the middle east - they are going to be more concerned that whoever the stand-in is for Gog or Magog might be eating THEIR kids and wives next, prophecies be hanged. That's where the pressure has to be applied - to their OWN worldview, rather than imposing yours on them.

reply to post by nenothtu


I agree, and likewise, turn my mind and actions to my own, once he is grown and no longer needs me, we shall see, I suspect I may get into the business of banging heads together. If needs be. It's certainly something that I am considering more and more.

In terms of prophecy, I find it interesting to note that etymologically, 'to prophesise' is indistinguishable, from the root, to 'encourage'. It's a crying shame that more don't take that onboard and realise the difference that a little less negativity could bring to proceedings. So much is brought about, and justified, by those wishing for it.

Originally posted by Biliverdin
reply to post by nenothtu

 

I agree, and likewise, turn my mind and actions to my own, once he is grown and no longer needs me, we shall see, I suspect I may get into the business of banging heads together. If needs be. It's certainly something that I am considering more and more.

I'm pretty near to that point now. Mine is 17, pretty much on his own, and I've nearly outlived my usefulness as a family man. I've got to find a new purpose now, or just go on out to pasture. I doubt it will involve anything overseas, but for the right cause I could probably be induced. Removing kids from a war zone at their parents' request might qualify, but there are younger, faster guys around who would likely be better at it - we've no lack of trained individuals these days, but on the other hand I AM more expendable, having got it all behind me instead of ahead of me now.

In terms of prophecy, I find it interesting to note that etymologically, 'to prophesise' is indistinguishable, from the root, to 'encourage'. It's a crying shame that more don't take that onboard and realise the difference that a little less negativity could bring to proceedings. So much is brought about, and justified, by those wishing for it.

I've always thought of "prophecy" in terms of "speaking for God", not necessarily in a predictive sense, although that seems to be the most common usage for it these days. It can be used for correction in the here and now, encouragement of the discouraged, also in the here and now, and the least useful purpose I would think would be predictive. Who cares what the future may hold if your here and now is an entire mess? I'd rather make the "now" right, and the future will take care of itself.

The future rides on the tracks we lay now.

Originally posted by nenothtu
I'm pretty near to that point now. Mine is 17, pretty much on his own, and I've nearly outlived my usefulness as a family man. I've got to find a new purpose now, or just go on out to pasture. I doubt it will involve anything overseas, but for the right cause I could probably be induced. Removing kids from a war zone at their parents' request might qualify, but there are younger, faster guys around who would likely be better at it - we've no lack of trained individuals these days, but on the other hand I AM more expendable, having got it all behind me instead of ahead of me now.

Ahh...speed and agility have there place, but age brings us a whole new skill set that builds upon the experience we have gained. As I have said before, don't knock yourself. Children in such circumstances don't need someone that can run around after them protectively, they need someone with the ability to navigate and negotiate them out of the area. And if necessary, to stand, stock still, in front of them, to prevent harm coming to them. From what I have seen of the people that do this kind of work, youth is not even remotely a factor, quite the opposite.

I am still a way off, my son is 9, he'll be needing me for a while yet, but that is plenty of time for me to prepare and further build upon the skills I need. I don't intend to wield a gun, my ability to help, I think, lies elsewhere and my particular interest is mostly in those who are left without parental care, and who are instead made the victims of exploitation which draws them into conflicts more directly.

Originally posted by nenothtu
I've always thought of "prophecy" in terms of "speaking for God", not necessarily in a predictive sense, although that seems to be the most common usage for it these days. It can be used for correction in the here and now, encouragement of the discouraged, also in the here and now, and the least useful purpose I would think would be predictive. Who cares what the future may hold if your here and now is an entire mess? I'd rather make the "now" right, and the future will take care of itself.

The future rides on the tracks we lay now.

If it were speaking for 'god', then I, personally, would be inclined to take it as a warning, wouldn't you? Rather than a cast iron prediction, set in stone, and immoveable. Afterall, if 'god' could communicate to us on that level, wouldn't that make better sense? Why tells us what is going to happen? So they can say 'I told you so'? No, so that we can change it. It is the only thing that makes any sense to me.

But yes, I agree with you wholeheartedly, the future is all about today.

Originally posted by OpinionatedB
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

I did not learn that we would be slaughtered by the wahabbis on this site dear. I rather learned most of that in real life....

the Muslim Brotherhood are wahabbis or what they call themselves salafis.... the religion they follow is one of extremeism... and we are their worst enemy, they consider us for the most part to be obligatory to kill.

Should you not believe me, I have been long predicting, when they gain power in Syria you just watch, they plan to start killing, and they will be killing Christians, Shia, Alawiyyah and all the other minority sects...

they have videos out promising our deaths... they are just in arabic hun

I dont care for extremism either...

I was thinking this would happen just the other day over my dead body, but i realize too, Assad is not someone to pull for either, so if we must fall into their hand for a little while, it wont be forever

I do have faith our blood will be avenged

edit on 19-7-2012 by OpinionatedB because: (no reason given)

I think that this is a very good post because so many people in the west see Islam as a monolithic entity and do not even realize that there are different sects and that there is much animosity between the sects. A large portion of the violence in Iraq was sunni vs shia.

reply to post by NavyDoc




thanks for your reply. take care.