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Court demands secret files on US 'black jails'

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posted on Jul, 18 2012 @ 01:39 PM
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I am very pro American that's why I am against torture and secret prisons. Once upon a time we were the bright shinning example fro what was good and right I would like to see us get back to that. Iceland has been whipping our butts in this as of late. Let's show the rest of the world we haven't lost our soul and get back to being #1 in something good for a change.




posted on Jul, 18 2012 @ 05:17 PM
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Originally posted by benrl
reply to post by VeniVidi
 





This is a mighty big assumption.


Fine they where at least ashamed of it and kept it in the dark, even than its wrong, and its OUR fault for allowing it.

Now we even have citizens who defend its use on the basis of "they did it first"...

Shameful.



i love the hollier then thou people who cry about torture , i am all for torture , we havn't had a terrorist attack in this country since 9/11 if torture has helped make that true then i say torture away!

99% of the time the people who claim that torture is wrong are really just hypocrits and or liers , ask any of them if you have terrorist #1 who is about to detonate a nuclear device on us soil and the only person who can tell you where it is is by torturing terrorist#2 is torture ok????

now im sure ill get all kinds of bs excuses that keep people from answering the question but if your answere to the question is still no you cant torture him, then you need to leave MY COUNTRY!!!!



posted on Jul, 18 2012 @ 05:36 PM
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reply to post by Gixxer
 


I think the reason for the lack of terrorist attacks in the US is not due to torture, but due to the extensive monitoring by the government of pretty much everyone that said terrorist attack enabled. Or because there isn't an immediate agenda that needs pushing at the moment.
edit on 18-7-2012 by scorpiosin because: (no reason given)

edit on 18-7-2012 by scorpiosin because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 18 2012 @ 06:10 PM
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Originally posted by phroziac
Terrorists dont exist. Its bs terminology.


not to put too fine a point on this...

youre an idiot if you believe that.



posted on Jul, 18 2012 @ 06:15 PM
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Originally posted by Gixxer

Originally posted by benrl
reply to post by VeniVidi
 





This is a mighty big assumption.


Fine they where at least ashamed of it and kept it in the dark, even than its wrong, and its OUR fault for allowing it.

Now we even have citizens who defend its use on the basis of "they did it first"...

Shameful.



i love the hollier then thou people who cry about torture , i am all for torture , we havn't had a terrorist attack in this country since 9/11 if torture has helped make that true then i say torture away!

99% of the time the people who claim that torture is wrong are really just hypocrits and or liers , ask any of them if you have terrorist #1 who is about to detonate a nuclear device on us soil and the only person who can tell you where it is is by torturing terrorist#2 is torture ok????

now im sure ill get all kinds of bs excuses that keep people from answering the question but if your answere to the question is still no you cant torture him, then you need to leave MY COUNTRY!!!!


aboslutely.



posted on Jul, 18 2012 @ 06:56 PM
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It's just my opinion speaking here, nothing more of course, but they need to be real careful and think very hard about how hard they want to tug this string. Everyone involved. There is still a war being fought, right now and as we speak. We don't even need to touch on how another one seems almost certain to blow in Syria, Iran or both.

These prisons, if such a thing has ever existed, likely would, in that hypothetical place, still exist. The war is still being fought..and by both sides. Again, lets not play like the enemy has been bombed and shot for over 10 years and isn't fighting back, even if one has serious issues over anything that started this whole mess. It's a two sided war now, like it or not.

The entire current administration would, in that hypothetical place, be open to possibly being tagged on this. The last one would be toast....IF any of this actually went that far. My guess is it never, ever will. However, IF such a thing should, I'd simply suggest that everything has a time and a place. During a war isn't the time and Poland damn sure isn't the place. When this war is OVER.....our nation has enough soul searching required to keep us busy for a generation. After.



posted on Jul, 18 2012 @ 08:41 PM
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My problem isn't so much with torture, there are times when I would condone it, the problem is mass torture with very little justification which is what America is doing, and then denying it happens while condemning others for doing it.
The biggest problem I have is American hypocrisy, look at the treads here ohh they cut down here garden, cop dared to hit her when she was resisting arrest, they are taking away our civil rights ohh the cries are endless.
Americans whinge about their constitution this 1st amendment that, yet you are happy to have non Americans HUMAN rights not just violated but annihilated. This makes me sick and the worst part is you can't even do it in your own country you have to bribe others to do it so that way you can justify sleeping at night.

I hope anyone who condones these prisons has their wives taken from their bed in the middle of the night only to be returned 3 years later having suffered gang rape sodomy & endless torture, I hope they receive monthly videos of it happening too. Then after they have seen the effects I hope they are taken and endure the same for eternity.

There must be a lot of people in these prisons if they need that many.

To the guy talking about powerful countries can do what they want, be careful your friends don't turn on you cause America can't stand alone you wouldn't last a decade, and history will remember you as worse than the Nazis.
For those who say Americans get tortured, true but it doesn't get done by a foreign Gov in secrete facilities set up all over the world. Wonder what America would do if china had a couple of dozen of these camps full of kidnapped Americans.



posted on Jul, 18 2012 @ 11:13 PM
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I am only recently joined ATS after many months of reading. The content has completely changed and seems the government farmed out the opinion work to foreign countries. You can see the sentiment of hate for the US in many topics and threads.



posted on Jul, 18 2012 @ 11:32 PM
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America's (the American continuity of Government's) position seems to be that torture is sometimes necessary, but that torture should be done selectively on certain individuals to extract information, not on groups of people as a means of social control.

This position is a departure from past policy, where torture did occur, but on an ad hoc or impromtue basis by "rogue" officials or military personnel, acting on their own personal recognisance.

On a 5 star sliding scale America might be considered a "one star" torturing nation and Syria or Iraq under Saddam might be considered "three star" torturing nations.

The problem though, with even being on a sliding scale, is that there is a risk of sliding.

Now everyone in government knows that there is never an oversight problem in government. The civil service runs like a Swiss watch and nothing ever goes wrong, so America can be confident that things will never deteriorate in serious ways, simply because America is on a sliding scale of torturing nations.

Right?


On the other hand if torture is absolutely forbidden, one only has to worry about rogue individuals, acting on their own at high risk to themselves.

Most specialists in information extraction don't put a lot of stock in torture as a method. A lot of prisoners will tell interrogators anything they want to hear, just to escape torture. This is not always as good as it sounds. Especially if what the interrogators want to hear is not in fact true.

Brutality is a double edged sword. It brutalizes the brutalizer as well as the victim. I would humbly suggest to Americans that they not become a brutal society. I don't think they would like it. It really would be out of character.
edit on 18-7-2012 by ipsedixit because: (no reason given)

edit on 18-7-2012 by ipsedixit because: (no reason given)

edit on 18-7-2012 by ipsedixit because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 07:21 AM
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reply to post by Gixxer
 


No terrorist attacks since 9/11? What!!

Anthrax attacks
DC Sniper
Egyptian gunman shoots at an LA airport
Fort Hood
and this is just off the top of my head, need more?

Another other right wing talking points you want to try?

Torture hasn't proven effective towards anything, only made our country look as weak as the terrorists.



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 07:31 AM
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reply to post by VeniVidi
 


this argument is false.
from the op this thread appears to be about american secret prisons and rendition; more specifically about one case where a court is asking for information. what this thread is not is a general thread about torture.
now i can understand you wanting to think whatever. but to call it unamerican or however you put it is just wrong and very misleading of you.
it is so hard to try to change america for the better when most every time someone attempts to point out a problem someone else just jumps in with a statement that, you are anti this, that, or the other.



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 07:34 AM
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reply to post by Wrabbit2000
 


well lol that all sounds well and good until one realizes that this war unlike others in the past may never be over.
it is not like we have a true enemy, this is a war on terror, and as long as the media have any say, there will always be something or someone that we must be afraid of.



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 09:25 AM
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Originally posted by Kryties
The US is absolutely the single most hypocritical nation on Earth at this present time.

Imagine the outcry in America if it were another country doing this to American citizens? It would be deafening. Yet when the rest of us speak up about these atrocities being committed by the US we get told to shut it, mind our own damn business and labelled as "America haters".

I, for one, am sick to death of the lies and deceit coming out of America. It's time the world put America in it's place.


Now, when you say that the US is the most hypocritical nation are you implying that ALL Americans are that way or mostly just the government? I ask this because as a female American I often feel ridiculed by non-americans when I have no control over what my male, power hungry, egotistical leaders/government do to other countries. I think this country has so much corruption going on but I don't condone it and I in fact feel trapped here at times. I really hope that non-Americans aren't judging us all on what our government has done. If anything, the American citizens are more like prisoners. Granted, there are alot of ignorant "proud to be an American" all for war hotheads out there but we are not all like that. Those atrocities that the US has cimmitted make me sick and ashamed to be an American....so for the sake of the "peace loving" Americans could everyone please be specific when refering to the US government vs. it's citizens.



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 11:49 AM
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i love the hollier then thou people who cry about torture , i am all for torture , we havn't had a terrorist attack in this country since 9/11 if torture has helped make that true then i say torture away!

99% of the time the people who claim that torture is wrong are really just hypocrits and or liers , ask any of them if you have terrorist #1 who is about to detonate a nuclear device on us soil and the only person who can tell you where it is is by torturing terrorist#2 is torture ok????

now im sure ill get all kinds of bs excuses that keep people from answering the question but if your answere to the question is still no you cant torture him, then you need to leave MY COUNTRY!!!!


I agree completely, I am not for torture as a general practice but I am not naive enough to believe that it is not used by our country when absolutely necessary. I am sure many might disagree with me but if your family member had a bomb strapped to them and the only way to get the codes necessary to disarm the bomb was by torturing the person who created the bomb, you would be first in line to start clipping some fingers or toes off. I would do whatever is necessary to protect my family and my way of life... period... without question or a moments hesitation.



posted on Jul, 19 2012 @ 03:32 PM
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Originally posted by Kryties
The US is absolutely the single most hypocritical nation on Earth at this present time.

Imagine the outcry in America if it were another country doing this to American citizens?
What, you mean like this? >





It would be deafening.


Somehow I don't remember any deafening outrage.


Yet when the rest of us speak up about these atrocities being committed by the US we get told to shut it, mind our own damn business and labelled as "America haters".

I, for one, am sick to death of the lies and deceit coming out of America. It's time the world put America in it's place.
Oh, it's coming. There's no way out of that. It's been on its way for 19 years. I'd have my eye on April 19, 2013.
edit on 19-7-2012 by seamus because: add info.



posted on Jul, 26 2012 @ 08:19 AM
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Originally posted by Corruption Exposed
reply to post by HunkaHunka
 




When you have the power, you can use it as you wish


You would make a good dictator, Hitler and Stalin would be proud


America has unfortunately had that power and used it unwisely whether in it's commercial interests or in war. It's conduct has been shameful in every way.



posted on Jul, 26 2012 @ 08:40 AM
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Originally posted by VeniVidi
reply to post by Corruption Exposed
 


Last time one of these America tortures its enemies posts came up I posted pics of terrorists beheading Americans. I got into trouble for posting them, so I won't do it here. Suffice it to say that there are some pretty gruesome pictures and videos out there showing terrorists torturing Americans, and Europeans.


So get over it. These were one of the few times that they were able to point out how horrific and unjust torture is. After all they had seen their loved ones experience it and so unjustly.



posted on Jul, 26 2012 @ 08:47 AM
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Originally posted by Gixxer

Originally posted by benrl
reply to post by VeniVidi
 





This is a mighty big assumption.


Fine they where at least ashamed of it and kept it in the dark, even than its wrong, and its OUR fault for allowing it.

Now we even have citizens who defend its use on the basis of "they did it first"...

Shameful.



i love the hollier then thou people who cry about torture , i am all for torture , we havn't had a terrorist attack in this country since 9/11 if torture has helped make that true then i say torture away!

99% of the time the people who claim that torture is wrong are really just hypocrits and or liers , ask any of them if you have terrorist #1 who is about to detonate a nuclear device on us soil and the only person who can tell you where it is is by torturing terrorist#2 is torture ok????

now im sure ill get all kinds of bs excuses that keep people from answering the question but if your answere to the question is still no you cant torture him, then you need to leave MY COUNTRY!!!!
The only reason you haven't had another terrorist attack in your country is because the US were the terrorists. 9/11, 7/7 in London, the train bombs in Spain and the bombs in Bali were all designed to get our countries behind the Iraq war. Well the US succeeded up to a point but there is a price to be paid and it's coming.

I abhor the fact that the ordinary American may pay the price for their corrupt government but it appears that is how it willl be.



posted on Jul, 26 2012 @ 08:56 AM
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Originally posted by benrl
reply to post by VeniVidi
 





included other Countries that committed torture


Who cares what other countries do, The America I grew up in Doesn't torture people, this one we live in now has become an abomination.

I can love my country and hate what it has become, that is not hating America, its loving it so much I weep over the current state of it.

Good for you mate because I do too. There is such a nice common decency in Americans and it is so corrupted by their government..



posted on Jul, 26 2012 @ 08:58 AM
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Originally posted by Gixxer
99% of the time the people who claim that torture is wrong are really just hypocrits and or liers , ask any of them if you have terrorist #1 who is about to detonate a nuclear device on us soil and the only person who can tell you where it is is by torturing terrorist#2 is torture ok????
now im sure ill get all kinds of bs excuses that keep people from answering the question but if your answere to the question is still no you cant torture him, then you need to leave MY COUNTRY!!!!
Interesting. How do reconcile that attitude with the fact that the US hanged Japanese for waterboarding American POWs during WW2?

Let's not forget that this thread is not about anti-Americanism...it's about accountability. If there is any hypocrisy around, it's reflected in the fact that the US Govt is afraid to face up to it's actions. No surprise that certain individuals (cough...Bushies...cough) are avoiding certain international jurisdictions these days.


edit on 26-7-2012 by JohnnyCanuck because: ...just because...ok?



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