Did the Holocaust Really Happen?

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posted on Jul, 20 2012 @ 05:34 AM
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Many don't know but Jehovah's Witnesses were the only religious group to have their own distinctive symbol in the camps. It was a purple triangle. They were not treated as "minors" in the sense as the Jews, gypsies, and others were, because many of these Christians who were persecuted were full-blooded Germans. They were in the camps out of choice because they refused to support Hitler. There was a good documentary several years ago about them called Purple Triangles. A couple of the experiences from that documentary that came out in Britain could be found here:




Another video documenting the persecution is called Jehovah's Witnesses Stand Firm Against Nazi Assault. I was able to find the whole video on YouTube:









edit on 20-7-2012 by SubAce because: second video




posted on Jul, 20 2012 @ 05:42 AM
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Originally posted by IamRoy08
So.. what you're saying is. Every single bit of history regarding to the holocaust is falsified? That every single account in which these Jews suffered were as well falsified and throughout time these people have all been under a cover story? That the "Nazis" were simply the fall guys?

Wow I thought people on here were nuts, but this tops it off.

Congrats but this is something I can't even try to believe.


Which is more "Idiotic", believing that the "Holocaust" happened EXACTLY like the history books say, or, Believing it didn't happen at all?.
Or, to completely willfully? misinterpret a whole bunch of posters who are basically saying, the truth is in between, it did happen, but not EXACTLY like the history books say it did.
You may not like ATS, believe me, you would do well to stick around and learn the value of a reasoned debate without resorting to a contemptuous dismissal of peoples opinion based on a failure to understand what you have read.

We have all done it, our continuing education is enabling us to become more tolerant and less given to the offence of repeat idiocy.
This thread may have an attention grabbing headline, in many ways this thread has served as a cathartic release for many people and their opinions, it has also shown ATS that sometimes we are a bit lazy, and i don't blame people for not reading the entire O.P, the first few paragraphs are not exactly riveting stuff, and it reads like it is going to basically continue in the vein of the headline, and not do much else.
Many threads recently have been a little lack lustre, maybe some of us have got a little lazy,



posted on Jul, 20 2012 @ 07:04 AM
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Originally posted by SubAce
did it really happen?


I stopped reading there, I cannot believe the direction ATS is going to, after so many threads recently praising Hitler and denying the holocaust.

If you had FAMILY MEMBERS who survived/died in the holocaust, you could ever EVER E-V-E-R say something that beyond stupidity, but from your comfort zone and with nothing to personally relate you to these events, I guess it is an easy task, to deny the death of millions and millions of people, staring at the computer screen and type some words on the keyboard.

Shame on you OP, you should seek professional help if you think that so many people got killed, people that are close to so many other people whom are still alive today, and yet still have the guts to deny it ever happened.


And shame on the ATS community for such threads, ATS should switch their slogan to "support ignorance"



posted on Jul, 20 2012 @ 08:01 AM
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Wow


It's pretty sad the amount of people who read just a thread title, then post a reply, without reading the entire post(s) made by the OP'er.

I don't really like to enable ignorance, but really if this is the case, I think we're gonna have to dumb down the thread titles for the masses here. Because this thread makes it painfully obvious that a large portion of members here post replies without reading the posts, just the thread titles.

Maybe not makeing the thread title a question will help



posted on Jul, 20 2012 @ 08:03 AM
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Originally posted by Shuye

Originally posted by SubAce
did it really happen?


I stopped reading there, I cannot believe the direction ATS is going to, after so many threads recently praising Hitler and denying the holocaust.

If you had FAMILY MEMBERS who survived/died in the holocaust, you could ever EVER E-V-E-R say something that beyond stupidity, but from your comfort zone and with nothing to personally relate you to these events, I guess it is an easy task, to deny the death of millions and millions of people, staring at the computer screen and type some words on the keyboard.

Shame on you OP, you should seek professional help if you think that so many people got killed, people that are close to so many other people whom are still alive today, and yet still have the guts to deny it ever happened.


And shame on the ATS community for such threads, ATS should switch their slogan to "support ignorance"


Oh for the love of God......


You're doing ATS proud, admitting your ignorance in the first line of your post.

I have seen a lot of folks say, "But the title of the thread is not consistent with the content of the OP". Yes, I know this. It is a rhetorical question. Any philosopher starts their train of thought with such a question, and then a logical exercise meant to flesh out this question.

Besides, as has been said, consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.

ETA: to clarify, the philosopher doesn't ask the rhetorical question. The OP may or may not have. I would suspect that it was asked rhetorically, as he had his thread laid out according to his religious proclivities.
edit on 20-7-2012 by bigfatfurrytexan because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 20 2012 @ 08:27 AM
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Heres how I see this.

The OP of the thread had a valid point to make, but used a sensational post title to make it.

And therein lies the problem, because the title is what "sells" the story, and if things are misinterpreted initially then sadly, usually what follows is also misinterpreted.

But, those who do seek to deny the atrocity of the holocaust will also attempt to use such things as an end to their own means, and that has happened on more than one occasion so far - that in turn breeds retorts and replies that will continually drag the topic in one direction or another and invariably the original message - as well thought out as it may be - gets lost.

"ATS" is a diverse community, that new people visit all the time. Some may be sadly misguided in their views, and some may simply be bloody minded about them. Some people can be educated and some never will be.

For those of us who have done the research, read the details, talked to witnesses and survivors and yes - I even did the maths on this myself to see what was possible - the idea of denying such an atrocity - any atrocity - is abhorrent.

Sadly though, some people just hate wantonly. Those people are the epitomy of ignorance.

Its not the people who misread the thread intentions who are ignorant - they are misguided slightly. Those who seek to deny are ignorant, and that ignorance needs to be denied.



posted on Jul, 20 2012 @ 08:42 AM
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reply to post by neformore
 


Some DO hate wontonly. Those are the bastards we wish to deny our attention to.

But many people just don't take peoples words for things. They ask questions to find answers for themselves. And ATS is a place where people like this commune. If you shout down everyone who would question the holocaust, reducing it to "deniers" and everyone else, then you just make it seem more like something is being covered up to the inquiring mind.

And therein lies the problem. I ask relevant questions, and get shouted down (not in this thread). Someone posts a thread to discuss this element of the Nazi story, and it gets locked, then 404'd. It is like there is a campaign to shush discussion of this, and it makes the conspiracy minded wonder why.

Add to the fact all the dozens of inconsistencies with the offical story on the Nazi's, and it makes you start to wonder about a larger conspiracy.

I am middle aged. I have known survivors. What they went through is horrible, and I have cried for them while they told me their stories. I have known WWII vets, and their stories are even worse that the ones lucky enough to survive. The soldiers saw the results of the campaign in its most gruesome state. So I don't question that it happened, myself. I know it did. I question the story surrounding it. And so when I participate in these threads I tolerate pages of nonsense in the hope of finding just 1 more link that has something of use in it.



posted on Jul, 20 2012 @ 08:46 AM
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One can come back to reading the thread and multiple links & info. The jws , they are no joke , but as in any powerful group , the leadership is hidden , along with the true power. JWs as a group / a social co-operative are mega-rich. Ats thread re> the owners of the owners , which identified Rand Corporation 's as one the only multi-enterprise owners at the top. And who sits on the board and owns the shares of that ? Its the JWs
That's what accumulates when you collect 10% , on every adherent's monetary incomes. Massive power. Rand apparently runs a group of 200 top intellectuals , to 'foresee' , literally , what is coming .
This story gets deeper and further , and unforutunately I will have to stop there.
As for this , denial , then who knows how it came about ? Though these 'rational historians' would deny any existence of God , it remains a very simple fact that the valuation of subjective experience is often put before the carrying out of expected behaviours. Therefore the existence of God and biblical dealings is very much an in-your-face business. The unseen being hidden , having some faith in your having any future at all is virtually paramount



posted on Jul, 20 2012 @ 08:48 AM
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reply to post by SubAce
 


I guess you didn't read the part where I said he started to antagonize Hitler after the letter didn't work



posted on Jul, 20 2012 @ 09:40 AM
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reply to post by Valhall
 


I read through your post because its two stars, but its two stars because youre typing things the JW person finds flattering. None of it applies to me.

Actually, the part where you sound sour and start telling me what is and is not my intellectual choice is out of bounds behavior. I chose to disclose my IQ because you started making ignorant assumptions about IQ. Before you decided to clam up, you made a final punch at me because of it. You expect to be surrounded by intelligent people when you don't have any respect for us, since you tell yourself you're intelligent from no basis? No, you dont. You dont want to be surrounded by intelligent people. You would rather grant yourself the title for no reason.

You have absolutely no idea how much torment your class of person inflicts against people who have intelligence. You use intelligence as a weapon to punish those who have it. Its undetectable to most people, but you grin when you find somebody who you notice flinches from your behavior.

I'll expand my post to anybody who wants to discuss it for real. I watch Big Brother television because that show features real people. Recently one of the contestants made anti gay statements. It was that moment that I knew this show was worth watching, simply for the fact that it's unscripted. It wasn't some jewish, or turkish, or canadian, or american, or anybody person writing that character their morality. A television network wouldnt ever want their character making anti gay statements.

And yes, even to your spiteful attempt at twisting my own words, Big Brother IS the intellectual television option. You watch the contestants until you decide which strategy would be most advantageous. Then you stop watching until the finale. I couldn't even watch that Rachael season. Now I know why. She won. This season seems very interesting.

It all ties into me having already viewed countless hours of jewish television programming. I just want different opinions.
edit on 20-7-2012 by Kapkalna because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 20 2012 @ 12:18 PM
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Did anything in our history books really happen the way we wrote them??

I highly doubt it.



posted on Jul, 20 2012 @ 02:45 PM
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reply to post by Kapkalna
 


I feel you mate, I posted on Valhall's comments telling him to read OP's before posting and he told me he was ganna report me to springer... I told him to go ahead. This thread has really brought out the worst in people. Its not the first time, and every time this happens I end up not posting or reading in ATS for a good while...

So many times you'll lay down an argument in page 2 of a thread and someone will post in page 3 who didn't take the time to read the whole thread. Then you post the same thing over and over and over...

MODS, is there anything that can be done about people not reading the OP in a thread?? is it worthy of reporting it to mods as spam?? Can it count against people so that people who do it perpetually get banned or at least warned?



posted on Jul, 20 2012 @ 03:12 PM
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Originally posted by Nephlim
MODS, is there anything that can be done about people not reading the OP in a thread?? is it worthy of reporting it to mods as spam?? Can it count against people so that people who do it perpetually get banned or at least warned?
.

I suggest that you consider making a thread in the board business forum away from here.... it's a valid question.



posted on Jul, 20 2012 @ 04:13 PM
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I have a neighbor who passed away a few years ago, who lost his entire family in the camps but survived. He still had a tattoo on his arm. He spent the rest of his life an emotionally tortured recluse. On those rare occasions where he talked about it, you KNEW he was telling the truth. It DID happen. Rest in peace Syd.



posted on Jul, 20 2012 @ 04:14 PM
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reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan
 


I'm sorry, I didn't read the OP. If there is a point to this thread, it must NOT start with the question whether the holocaust happened or not. I had family members who died at the holocaust, and other family members who ran as far as they could from Germany and Poland during the time before WW2, when they sensed something real bad is about to happen. Some of them are still alive today to tell about it. Not to the ATS community obviously because internet for most of them is a theoretical concept.

I cannot, am not, and certainly not going to read a thread that starts like that. If there was a point beyond that, so be it. There are SENSITIVE people here whom cannot accept these ideas, call it ignorance? If let's say a member here saw his grandmother (for example) getting hit by a car and died long ago, and then someone way deep into space and time behind a computer screen denies it ever happened, wouldn't that member get pissed off? And calling him ignorant because he cannot give up his OWN EXPERIENCE and let his beliefs drift into some conspiracy?

What I wish to say is, that this story pains me, because I know otherwise. Like I said, if there is a point to this thread other than denying the holocaust ever happened, it could be right or wrong, I don't know. But to start a thread with such idea, and not expecting such reactions? It is obtuse.

What if I would start a thread that begins with whether or not 9/11 ever happened? The context doesn't matter, to those who feel the pain for this event. To those who knew people who died in that disaster, questioning whether it happened or not is out of the question, and unfair to those who are emotionally involved in this.

I'm sorry if I cannot understand or not even trying to understand your point of view, if I can give you an analogy (Because i'm not a U.S citizen), for you it should feel as a thread denying 9/11 ever happened. I'm sure no one here would even bother to read the rest of the post.



posted on Jul, 20 2012 @ 04:31 PM
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reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan
 


Respectfully, I disagree.

Threads on the holocaust pop up from time to on ATS, and in other places on the web.

The "same old same old" discussion then is had.

Perhaps you missed my post here - www.abovetopsecret.com...

I think that sums it all up in a nutshell.

There is only ONE reason why people persistently question the Holocaust in WW2, and its not to do with factual accuracy at all, because factual accuracy isn't an issue anywhere else...ever.

WW2 was full of mysteries, yes. The Nazis had an awful lot of secrets, yes. But they also killed a hell of a lot of people and there is no conspiracy in slaughter. Its just slaughter.



posted on Jul, 20 2012 @ 05:02 PM
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Well I have decided to change this up a bit and actually stay on topic. Though most are arguing the "holocaust" itself, Id like to call attention to what I think the OP was actually trying to do, which in my eyes should have been debated, discussed, or at least called out by now.

To the OP, I see that what your were saying was that there was a persecution of JW's as well, and yes that can be confirmed, but the light that you choose to shine on one particular group, and make them "heroes" I feel is more of a disrespect then others here actually denying the holocaust itself.

SO I thought I would bring a little bit of debate lets say to the reason the JW's "may" have been persecuted the way they were and the Watchtower Societies part.

A Letter To Hitler....

Russell, founder of the Watchtower, was a Zionist and sympathetic to Jews as part of modern day fulfilment of Bible prophecy. Rutherford initially continued such support, but changed by the 1930's to an anti-Semitic stance.

"Be it known once and for all that those profiteering, conscienceless, selfish men who call themselves Jews, and who control the greater portion of the finances of the world and the business of the world, will never be the rulers in this new earth. God would not risk such selfish men with such an important position" The Golden Age 1927 Feb 23 p.343

"Jews [are] no longer important to God. … the Balfour Declaration, sponsored by the heathen governments of Satan's organization, came forth, recognized the Jews, and bestowed upon them great favors. The Jews have received more attention at their hands than they really deserved." Vindication - Book II (1932) pp.257,258

When the Watchtower's German operations came under attack by the Nazi government in 1933, Rutherford sent a Letter and Declaration to Hitler, in which he could rightfully praise Hitler for his anti-Anglo/American campaign and his stance against the Jews.



The Declaration of Facts was reprinted in the Yearbook 1934. It went on to state, in part:

"It is falsely charged by our enemies that we have received financial support for our work from the Jews. Nothing is farther from the truth. Up to this hour there never has been the slightest bit of money contributed to our work by Jews. We are the faithful followers of Christ Jesus and believe upon Him as the Savior of the world, whereas the Jews entirely reject Jesus Christ and emphatically deny that he is the Savior of the world sent of God for man's good. This of itself should be sufficient proof to show that we receive no support from Jews and that therefore the charges against us are maliciously false and could proceed only from Satan, our great enemy. The greatest and the most oppressive empire on earth is the Anglo-American empire. By that is meant the British Empire, of which the United States of America forms a part. It has been the commercial Jews of the British-American empire that have built up and carried on Big Business as a means of exploiting and oppressing the peoples of many nations. This fact particularly applies to the cities of London and New York, the stronghold of Big Business. This fact is so manifest in America that there is a proverb concerning the city of New York which says: The Jews own it, the Irish Catholics rule it, and the Americans pay the bills.

The present government of Germany has declared emphatically against Big Business oppressors and in opposition to the wrongful religious influence in the political affairs of the nations. Such is exactly our position.

Instead of being against the principles advocated by the government of Germany, we stand squarely for such principles, and point out that Jehovah God through Christ Jesus will bring about the full realization of these principles and will give to the people peace and prosperity and the greatest desire of every honest heart.

A careful examination of our books and literature will disclose the fact that the very high ideals held and promulgated by the present national government are set forth in and endorsed and strongly emphasized in our publications and show that Jehovah God will see to it that these high ideals in due time will be attained by all persons who love righteousness.

Let us remind the government and the people of Germany, that it was the League of Nations compact that laid upon the shoulders of the German people the great unjust and unbearable burdens. That the League of Nations compact was not brought forth by the friends of Germany." Yearbook 1934 pp.134-138 (English Edition)

www.jwfacts.com...

At the above site you can click on the original documents in German, and see them as thumbnails.

I see that everyone is distracted, but I would also like to point out that it is things like this, that should help even those that were originally upset by the title, that it is things like this that get by, by poseing a distraction away from its true meaning.
NRE.



posted on Jul, 20 2012 @ 05:06 PM
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People have been persecuted for thousands of years based on the teachings of religious groups and that is including the JW's. Though I respect what they did, I dont think that they were fully aware of what was happening behind the scenes.

Here is a PDF you might find interesting as well.

Jehovah's Witnesses, Anti-semitism and the Third Reich; The Watch Tower Society's Attempted Compromise with Nazism.
www.jwfacts.com...

If your thread was discussing how the JW's were tricked by their organization and its a shame, I agree.

But I think that this was more or less a way to make it seem like being a JW will cause you to be prideful and even die for your beliefs, and thats how good they are (the society).

The truth is that they were persecuted for "who" they stood with... not who they stood for.


Peace, NRE.[
edit on 20-7-2012 by NoRegretsEver because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 20 2012 @ 06:44 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
6 million Jews directly kiilled
6 million non-Jews directly killed.
- Orthodox
- Catholics
- Homosexuals.
- Gypsies.
- Physically 'unfit'.
- Mentally Ill
- Free Masons
- Jehovahs Witness'


You forgot to add socialists, communists, anarchists, trade unionists, political prisoners, soviet POW's.



posted on Jul, 20 2012 @ 07:46 PM
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I really hope that most of you that have spent so much time missing the point all this was, was an advertisement for JW's.

The OP managed to turn this....





Into this.....

Did the Holocaust Really Happen?, page 1

Come on guys.

Peace, NRE.




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