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An Honest Question For ATS Preachers

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posted on Jul, 21 2012 @ 08:27 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Lol.. you literally did just type that "works are anathema" to me?? I've told you probably no less than 30 times that works don't save/justify us. But works/fruit follow genuine faith (James), and are the "why" of God's choice to redeem us. (Ephesians 2:8-10). You can't seem to grasp the difference between being against something completely and being against a dysfunctional motive for doing a good thing.
"Works" follow faith, ok, so how does that tie in with being saved?
Your citation from Ephesians, is that supposed to be your "proof" for your statement "works don't save/justify us"? You are probably posting from your cell phone. I don't edit my posts until after I post them because I have to see the entire post in one view to do it, I would not want to try it on a tiny screen. Anyway, you repeatedly use this as a proof text, without ever addressing my objection that you are taking the verse out of context and misapplying the word "saved" to mean something never intended by the writer. He is saying you (as a church) were saved from a life of sin, to live a life of righteousness to the Lord. There is nothing in the passage to suggest your usage, as an individual's admission into heaven at the end of their life.
edit on 21-7-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)


No, my position is and always has been that living a life pleasing to God and bearing the fruit of the Holy Spirit is a secondary cause of having said Holy Spirit. Being born again through faith in Christ is the first cause. He gives us the grace and power to live in repentance and love for Goad and His people. It's not out of context. We are saved by grace through/via faith and not of works. (First cause). The reason or why of that first cause is to do the good works or to bear the fruit of said salvation (second cause). I do not believe we should do good works jn order to make ourselves pleasing to God so He will justify us in the end with the point being to hopefully be in heaven. I believe salvation is the starting gun not the finish line/prize and we do good works to glorify God who has already been rich towards us in mercy and grace through Christ and our lives are then a living testimony of that love He already showed to us.

Im NOT against good works, Im against the purpose and motive some have for doing them. If God took away heaven today I would still serve Him for all that He has already done for me in love.




posted on Jul, 21 2012 @ 08:33 AM
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reply to post by truejew
 


Who is baptized in the name of three gods? First of all, Trinitarians are monotheists not polytheists. We call God "Him" not "them". Secondly, "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" aren't names, they are titles. And "in the name of" means "in the authority of".



posted on Jul, 21 2012 @ 08:39 AM
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Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
No it's not. Baptism is what saved people do, not what people do to be saved.


Yes it is. Peter said we must be baptized to be saved.

"Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:37-38 KJV)
edit on 21-7-2012 by truejew because: (no reason given)


So then you believe God is a respecter of persons? He doesn't require all men to be baptized to be saved. If god lets some into paradise without baptism He is a respecter of persons. The naked gospel is in 1 Corinthians chapter 15. Does it mention salvation?

You cannot use 1 text to support your argument then not apply several others that refute it. That's terrible hermeneutics and contextual theology application.



posted on Jul, 21 2012 @ 09:03 AM
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Originally posted by borntowatch
I am not a Jew I am a Christian living under Gods grace, not your laws.


All true Christians are Jews, saved by grace through faith by the Messieh of the Jews.


Originally posted by borntowatch
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;


Correct, but without action you have no faith.

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17-18 KJV)

Is repentance necessary for salvation?
edit on 21-7-2012 by truejew because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 21 2012 @ 09:09 AM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Who is baptized in the name of three gods? First of all, Trinitarians are monotheists not polytheists. We call God "Him" not "them". Secondly, "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" aren't names, they are titles. And "in the name of" means "in the authority of".


Trinitarians are polytheists. Otherwise you would be comfortable saying that Jesus is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.



posted on Jul, 21 2012 @ 09:15 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Yes a typo, and no I was not referring to Jesus. We're talking about us sheep, not the Sheppard.

So what are you saying, that you are allowed one exception that you do not have to account for?
I would say that as the Bible tells us, he was tempted in all points as we are. So you are making a false exception that the Bible does not make, thus eliminating the very foundation of salvation theology in the New Testament.
Sorry but you will never understand salvation until you take into account the entire Bible, and not just the few "proof texts" your cult hands out to make people think they can be raptured any minute since they are "already saved". The only Rapture anything like the sort of thing your cult talks about is in 1 Thessalonians and seems to be just adding Jesus in as a main character to a scenario already well established in Hellenistic Judaism, of the Last Day, something mentioned in John 11 in relation to the resurrection. This would be necessarily tied in with the concept of a Final Judgment, so it mainly, at least to me, has to do with a life review rather than a sort of ad hoc pass to circumvent judgment, just for this extraordinary event that exists outside the normal laws of the universe, where afterwords, things just go back to normal.



posted on Jul, 21 2012 @ 09:42 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 
Your attempt at legalize I don't think worked out very well, so I will leave that for the moment, or for when you have a chance to properly sort it out.

I do not believe we should do good works jn order to make ourselves pleasing to God so He will justify us in the end with the point being to hopefully be in heaven.
OK . . then why not? It sounds about right to me, unless for some reason you don't want to go to heaven, maybe because you can't take your tattoos with you there.

I believe salvation is the starting gun not the finish line/prize and we do good works to glorify God who has already been rich towards us in mercy and grace through Christ and our lives are then a living testimony of that love He already showed to us.
"Salvation" back in the day, as in when the NT was written, would have been understood in political terms, such as when your city was besieged by an enemy and the king shows up and drives off the attackers and the city is saved. You can think of Jesus' resurrection as a victory over death and that he made a great salvation, so in that respect, he did save us, and we can participate in that salvation, but what Jesus created was a way, just as the early Christians called their belief system The Way, which is Jesus blazed the path before us for us to follow, so we aren't quite literally saved yet, until we reach the end of the road.

Im NOT against good works, Im against the purpose and motive some have for doing them. If God took away heaven today I would still serve Him for all that He has already done for me in love.
I seriously doubt that. But anyway to address the question here, God has a purpose, which is to save the world, and this is done by bringing individuals to living in a way that seems right to God. I don't think the main goal of God is to have a bunch of people to populate heaven by being "saved" by having been removed from the world. God's desire is to have a world justified, meaning brought into conformity with His standards of behavior.
Also to remind you of what I have discussed in the past, when Paul was talking about "works", he meant the specifics of the law which give an outward appearance of being godly but do nothing to help anyone but were just for display. Of course works in that sense are useless and are not what God wants. It would be the sort of works that James talks about, which are practical things that some people need, like food and shelter from disaster and other causes.

edit on 21-7-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 21 2012 @ 09:51 AM
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Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by borntowatch
I am not a Jew I am a Christian living under Gods grace, not your laws.


All true Christians are Jews, saved by grace through faith by the Messieh of the Jews.


Originally posted by borntowatch
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;


Correct, but without action you have no faith.

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17-18 KJV)

Is repentance necessary for salvation?
edit on 21-7-2012 by truejew because: (no reason given)




Jews must keep the law...duh, Christians are covered by grace not the law.

James was talking about works that are done through the Holy Spirit. You infer we have a natural desire to work on Gods behalf...Prove it with text. You cant. Thats silly
We are to be lead by the Holy Spirit with in to do our works.
You tell me can we be lead to repentance outside of God leading us. Here is a clue Ephesians and Romans is the key.
Your theology is a perversion based on your ability to appease God in works. Thats false
Go read Ephesians, its a short letter.



posted on Jul, 21 2012 @ 10:17 AM
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borntowatch,

Why are you afraid of answering if repentance is necessary for salvation? Is pride the reason? Or are you afraid of what your friends and family will think? Shouldn't your soul be more important than both?
edit on 21-7-2012 by truejew because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 21 2012 @ 10:34 AM
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Originally posted by borntowatch

Jews must keep the law...duh, Christians are covered by grace not the law.


Paul disagrees in the following Scriptures...

"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." (Romans 2:28-29 KJV)



posted on Jul, 21 2012 @ 10:35 AM
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reply to post by truejew
 



"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17-18 KJV)


So...what kind of works are we discussing here? What are we supposed to do, to prove our faith?

Just one more contradiction in a long line of contradictions, really. We're supposed to have faith in Jesus, but we have to prove our faith? That's not faith.



posted on Jul, 21 2012 @ 10:58 AM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity

What are we supposed to do,...


Peter answered that in Acts 2:37-39.


Just one more contradiction in a long line of contradictions, really. We're supposed to have faith in Jesus, but we have to prove our faith? That's not faith.


No contradiction. Repentance, baptism, and the gift of the Holy Spirit is by faith. Just like Noah building the ark.

"By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith." (Hebrews 11:7 KJV)



posted on Jul, 21 2012 @ 11:08 AM
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reply to post by truejew
 


Eternal life in return for repentance. That's a bargain, not a gift. Go back to school, little sheep. Your fear is making you stupid.

I dislike Christians more and more these days. I hate nothing more than people who refuse to think critically. Really, it's the only reason we've survived thus far, thinking critically. No wonder your numbers are floundering.



posted on Jul, 21 2012 @ 11:24 AM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity

No wonder your numbers are floundering.


The true Church is growing. It is the three god churches that are "floundering".



posted on Jul, 21 2012 @ 11:24 AM
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Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Who is baptized in the name of three gods? First of all, Trinitarians are monotheists not polytheists. We call God "Him" not "them". Secondly, "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" aren't names, they are titles. And "in the name of" means "in the authority of".


Trinitarians are polytheists. Otherwise you would be comfortable saying that Jesus is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.


Not sure where u studied theology and Christology, but the Father is the Father, the Son is the Son, and the Spirit is the Spirit. Jesus didn't pray to Himself. He didn't call down from Heaven at His own baptism and say He was well pleased with Himself. He didn't scream out at the cross and ask why He forsook Himself.



posted on Jul, 21 2012 @ 11:31 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Yes a typo, and no I was not referring to Jesus. We're talking about us sheep, not the Sheppard.

So what are you saying, that you are allowed one exception that you do not have to account for?
I would say that as the Bible tells us, he was tempted in all points as we are. So you are making a false exception that the Bible does not make, thus eliminating the very foundation of salvation theology in the New Testament.
Sorry but you will never understand salvation until you take into account the entire Bible, and not just the few "proof texts" your cult hands out to make people think they can be raptured any minute since they are "already saved". The only Rapture anything like the sort of thing your cult talks about is in 1 Thessalonians and seems to be just adding Jesus in as a main character to a scenario already well established in Hellenistic Judaism, of the Last Day, something mentioned in John 11 in relation to the resurrection. This would be necessarily tied in with the concept of a Final Judgment, so it mainly, at least to me, has to do with a life review rather than a sort of ad hoc pass to circumvent judgment, just for this extraordinary event that exists outside the normal laws of the universe, where afterwords, things just go back to normal.


Im saying he inherited no sinful nature from Adam. He was without spot or blemish, He was God incarnate. 1 John 1:9 is an absurd verse to have in the Bible if we can never sin. We still make mistakes even as Spirit-filled Christians. Sanctification is not a snap of the fingers process. I know you're going to read that as a free pass to live like Hitler, but i'm not implying that. Admitting mistakes happen from time to time is not sanctioning that we can live as we used to live. We are called to bear fruit.



posted on Jul, 21 2012 @ 11:33 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Ah, but Jesus performed those miracles by himself, which implies that he and the Father were separate. Similarly, the Holy GHost cannot be both THE Father and WITH the Father. WITH implies beside, separate from.

On the other hand, if they really are separate, then Christians are polytheists. And if they are monotheistic, that means they worship three-in-one, something that many members here have been arguing against for a while now.

So which one is it? 'Fess up.

edit on 21-7-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 21 2012 @ 11:35 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Here.. let me address Legalism.

1. Do you eat shrimp, lobster, clams, scallops, or mollusks?
2. Do you wear blended clothing?
3. Do you cut the hair on your sideburns?



posted on Jul, 21 2012 @ 11:43 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


That's legalism? Okay, I want to say something here.

The Bible is the Word of God. The Holy Scripture. All of it. You cannot pick and choose, because it is all equally valid, yes? So if you follow one rule but ignore the other, that means one of two things: either you are allowed to break rules and not have to repent, or there are parts of the Bible that are invalid.

So, if you can break rules and not repent, how do you decide that? Who has the authority to deem that appropriate? Who figures that out?

And if there are parts that are invalid, how do you know which parts are and which parts aren't? How do you know any of it is valid after all?

And how can you choose between legalism and something else? How is there any choice at all? Either you follow the Word, or you don't. There shouldn't be any gray area. How do you figure that out?
edit on 21-7-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 21 2012 @ 11:43 AM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Not sure where u studied theology and Christology, but the Father is the Father, the Son is the Son, and the Spirit is the Spirit. Jesus didn't pray to Himself. He didn't call down from Heaven at His own baptism and say He was well pleased with Himself. He didn't scream out at the cross and ask why He forsook Himself.


I don't have to type out a long response to that. You showed that the trinity is three gods for me.



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