**ATTENTION ALL MEMBERS:** We don't like Hitler at ATS, not even a little bit.

Originally posted by Osiris1953
reply to post by Springer

 

Thank you for this. I'm not much for censorship, but really promoting Hitler is beyond ignorant, and will draw the wrong kind of crowd to the site, which at least most of us wouldn't appreciate.

It's not even worthy of discussion... in Dr. Who he is described as the worst war criminal in the history of the universe. Just fiction I know, but it works for me.

People forget, I should say, history's censors have caused people to forget that the bolshevik thing was pretty looming, a huge, worldwide threat. Totalitarianism is totalitarianism, no matter which side it comes from. Hitler's prime enemies were quite real, and I find it curious that people do continuously overlook the list of baddies in this arena of madmen. I don't care what Doctor Who thinks or says. Hitler was not the worst, not by a long shot.

reply to post by Majic


I actually read his whole post and still missed that detail, although when I was writing my paper on the subject it was very much seen as Hitler admiration. After all if you throw the words Hitler and Positive in any sentence together you are going to seem like a Hitler Worshiper, much less writing a whole paper about his positive (very limited) influence on society. So thats my issue, will my content be misconstrued as Positive Hitler Propaganda and would i be banned for it? Its not like I was planning on writing a thread about the topic, but I do have first hand experience on this issue from the perspective of actually writing a positive paper on the things he accomplished for the benefit of our society, and based off of Springers mandate, I would be banned for bringing any of that up. I mean what do you call someone who is able to see both sides of the discussion and chooses to write something about the side least known about? I call that the Devils Advocate, some may say Hitler Sympathizer for this particular incident, but it was all about opening up some discussion and educating myself and others.

Its a slippery slope, and why not just ban as needed, instead of an all encompassing mandate? Again like this country, it should be addressed on an individual basis instead of a one size fits all solution

reply to post by Springer
everytime I take a day or two off from ats something happens!
actually if I never heard about this vile despicable monster again it would be too soon.People that defend this piece of work needs to spend a few days at the Holocaust museum to see what a great guy he was!(not)

I spent 2 days at the Holocaust memorial and the images I saw there will be with me forever.

we should never forget what a monster he really was,what he did to the jewish people will over ride anything positive he may have done in his life.

Originally posted by Springer
There has been a rash of "Hitler was a hero', "Hitler was not a bad guy" threads here at ATS recently and I am putting everyone on notice that it stops now. Any future threads of this nature will be removed and the posting privileges of the author will be terminated.

I don't really care if you've found some new version of history that makes you want jump out and goose step in a brown shirt and deny the Holocaust until somebody knocks some sense into you, we don't want to read about it here. We don't want to see it here. We don't care about the ignorant mental gymnastics someone went through in a lame attempt at rewriting history.

Sadly, there are thousands of sites you can go get your hateful, ignorant, "seig heil!" on at, ATS is NOT one of them.

Please note, this is NOT a mandate to silence all discussion about the Nazis, Hitler or WWII, so don't reply to this with feigned confusion or indignation over censorship.

This is a mandate about NOT trying to improve Hitler's well deserved reputation as an evil scumbag of history, or, sell him as a "decent guy who really elevated his country", etc...

Enough.

Springer...

I thought it was only me that noticed this... i've tried to politely (and maybe sometimes not so politely)argue with some of these people, but i think it needed this course of action. I haven’t read all the replies yet but I’m sure we will get a few of the cries over "free speech" ... However, "free speech" should not be confused with "hate speech" and let’s face it, that’s normally the direction that these "Hitler was a an ok guy" threads go in.

I, for one, applaud this move... The conspiracy side of me was starting to think that ATS was being targeted by one of the sad little far right groups that exist... at least I won't have to hear their anti-Semitic and racist ramblings anymore.

Nice one Springer

Originally posted by phishfriar47


Volkswagon, or The Peoples Car
en.wikipedia.org...

Autobahns formed the first limited-access, high-speed road network in the world en.wikipedia.org...

edit on 17-7-2012 by phishfriar47 because: (no reason given)

Not that it belongs in this thread, but... The Volkswagen was a scam to lure small investors into financing the arms industry - no Volkswagen was ever sold, only a very limited amount delivered to party hacks on public expenses. Hardly a fitting example that can be brought forward as something positive about Nazism.

The same goes for the Autobahn. Hitler's prime motivation for building it was that it would be essential in his planned war, not out of a love for the people. I invite you to go and read the accounts of the people who worked on the Autobahn under Todt - they were badly paid (yes, better than nothing, but no living wages), they were brutally overworked and shamelessly dumped as soon as they were injured or as soon as their local project was constructed. The Autobahn-project managed labor according to Taylorist principles and had a total disregard for the worker. Compare that to Roosevelt's infrastructure programs in order to bring out the difference between beneficial public works and scams played on the people in order to further an agressive war agenda.

sorry for derailing. I commented on the substance of the thread in an earlier post.

What a load of rubbish, silencing peoples opinions? You are worse than the government.

I don't give a crap about your opinion of hitler, I don't give a # how bad you think he was. But I respect your right to voice it, unlike you!

Does anyone really expect that the results of posting a thread about Stalin, portraying him as a hero of the people, would be different?

Simply put, the worship of mass murderers is not and should not be endorsed by this site.

Mark-

This is totally your right, and your call. I mentioned to someone earlier that I do not like the thread closures. I don't like Hitler, either. But i feel that the discussion around the Nazi's gets cut off all too often.

I am most disappointed in the membership of ATS for not being able to discuss things intelligently and with civility. i agree that you don't want the kind of attention that those threads will get you. Nor do we, as members, want to attract that type of member. It just sucks really bad that the natives around here get to rowdy to allow a decent discussion.

For a site that has a slogan of "Deny Ignorance" many users are certainly displaying a lot of it. I particularly mean the users who rant on about their "rights." There is only one issue here and that is the rights of the site owners. Do they have the right to ban certain topics? The answer is "Yes!" End of story. If you do not like this, then you have one, and only one recourse. Leave. You are a guest here. You can be bounced from here at any time for any reason, or even for no reason.

The First Amendment, among other things, guarantees the right of free speech by enjoining the government, and ONLY the government, from enacting laws that would prevent the exercise thereof. In other words, you can get on your soapbox in a public place, such as a public park, and rant on about whatever you want to. If you gather an audience, as long as it is a "peaceful assembly," great. If they shout you down. Great. If they throw tomatoes at you, file charges of assault and battery or sue to have your clothes cleaned.

ATS is not a public venue, but it is not a government venue. If you care to exercise your recourse to leave, here's your hat. Here's your coat. What's your hurry? Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Originally posted by NichirasuKenshin

Originally posted by phishfriar47


Volkswagon, or The Peoples Car
en.wikipedia.org...

Autobahns formed the first limited-access, high-speed road network in the world en.wikipedia.org...

edit on 17-7-2012 by phishfriar47 because: (no reason given)

Not that it belongs in this thread, but... The Volkswagen was a scam to lure small investors into financing the arms industry - no Volkswagen was ever sold, only a very limited amount delivered to party hacks on public expenses. Hardly a fitting example that can be brought forward as something positive about Nazism.

The same goes for the Autobahn. Hitler's prime motivation for building it was that it would be essential in his planned war, not out of a love for the people. I invite you to go and read the accounts of the people who worked on the Autobahn under Todt - they were badly paid (yes, better than nothing, but no living wages), they were brutally overworked and shamelessly dumped as soon as they were injured or as soon as their local project was constructed. The Autobahn-project managed labor according to Taylorist principles and had a total disregard for the worker. Compare that to Roosevelt's infrastructure programs in order to bring out the difference between beneficial public works and a scams played on the people in order to further an agressive war agenda.

sorry for derailing. I commented on the substance of the thread in an earlier post.

edit on 17-7-2012 by NichirasuKenshin because: (no reason given)

Back up your claims then, I verified my source of information and I know its wikipedia, but the content is still valid (plus it was just the first site returned to my search query). Also, you mustve forgotten that Germany was coming out of bankruptcy and it took time for the benefits of both of these ideas to be seen. Now why would wikipedia explicitly tell us that this was the worlds first high speed highway, and was well enough to be expanded on even after Hitlers demise? Also explain to me how if volkswagon was a terrible idea why it is still in business to this very day? Feel free to U2U me as we may end up banned and this is veering off topic.

Im always happy to admit when im wrong, just show me the way!

Originally posted by Crakeur
Why is this so hard:

Discussing Hitler, the nazis, the holocaust, WWII - ok

Discussing how Hitler was awesome and would be your dream doubles partner, not ok.

and by hitler, wer're talking Adolph.

If Hitler was in fact dismantling the Illuminati... would that not make him an awesome man?

This is the fine line I'm concerned about.

Truth of the matter is we don't know much except what we're told. If there is another side many don't know about, then this info should be brought to light. There was a slew of info that hit the forum and I am sad because I couldn't read any

It's easy to set up certain rules and say "follow them" but when they conflict each other then what? I'm sure this idea can be expanded on in various ways.

Btw, I am not challenging any mod. But rather trying to clear up the law of land here.

Remaining within the T&Cs I would like to point out a few things. ( www.abovetopsecret.com... )

Our desire is to foster an environment of civil decorum that enables our members to discuss highly provocative and intensely speculative topics without concern over personal attacks or insults.

Does the Hitler topic not fall into the category of "highly provocative and intensely speculative topics"?

16) Behavior: You will not behave in an abusive, libelous, defamatory, hateful, intolerant, bigoted and/or racist manner, and will not harass, threaten, nor attack anyone.

Is Your decision not considered "intolerant"?

21b) Cooperation: You will, if asked by TAN, cease to Post any content, and/or links to content, deemed offensive, objectionable, or in poor taste by TAN, in its sole discretion.

You cover your decision with this statement but contradict it with this one...

22b) Editorial Neutrality: TAN provides a forum for the open discussion of a wide variety of subjects, but does not influence editorial control over any particular theory, opinion, ideology, political doctrine, viewpoint or position on any topic in so far as those topics adhere to the rules set forth in these Terms and Conditions of Use and the Terms and Conditions of Membership. Furthermore, though operating costs are supported by advertising and promotional revenue, TAN do not officially endorse or promote any commercial product or service.

23) Violation: Violation of any aspect of these Terms and Conditions of Use and the Terms and Conditions of Membership are subject to our Actions for general abuse and violations, or in extreme cases, immediate banning of your username/IP from the domains and/or the removal of your email/password from the database. You agree that, all disputes, of any type, regarding any transgression or disagreement with the policies of TAN, or the decisions of one of TAN or administrative staff are final.

As this decision is a contradiction of the T&Cs are you not in violation of your own rules?

24) Right of Community Management. This is a privately owned discussion board community. TAN reserves the right to take action against any member, or member Posting, which is deemed to be devoted purely to disruption, represents behavior contrary to community building, or in cases where the content is contrary to the core ideals of the Websites.....

Isn't the core ideals of this website the denial of ignorance, to

discuss highly provocative and intensely speculative topics without concern over personal attacks or insults.

, and the

open discussion of a wide variety of subjects

? Maybe I don't understand the simple statement of "Deny Ignorance" does it mean to ignore it?

24)......This action may include removal of your Posting and/or complete banning of your username and IP address. TAN reserves the right to eliminate or edit any content deemed inappropriate for the discussion boards, news network or any affiliated sites. TAN reserves the right to establish limits on topics that may be discussed if, in their opinion, the discussion of those topics attract an audience that is counterproductive to maintaining the ideals set forth in the Terms and Conditions of Use and the Terms and Conditions of Membership.

Maybe it is time to rewrite the T&Cs to include the topics and ideals that are not allowed to be discussed above,

16e.) Illicit Activity:

and allow yourself the room to make these decisions within the guidelines you set for the site. You give yourself the room to change them, but you don't alter the T&Cs to show this and therefore, by not changing the T&Cs to a more update fashion in order to show these type of restrictions on these

highly provocative and intensely speculative topics

These decisions are not seen by the new member who does take the time to read the T&Cs. Not to mention when the older members joined the site they agreed with the old T&Cs and therefore are not in violation by discussing this topic now deemed against them, Which it is not in any way shape or form.

Hitler was a great man but at the same time a great Monster. Is he a hero? Not to me nor will he ever be but restricting a persons personal ideals IS against the T&Cs.

That's my opinion such as it is,

Agarta

reply to post by NichirasuKenshin



People worship Bush and Obama all the time, just saying. Or do the innocent Iraqis killed not count as people? Hmmm and thats why this is such a touchy subject when, where, and how do you draw a line on this?

Crossing Denial

reply to post by Chamberf=6

You can find a lot of things in the past, and what constitutes a "denial" thread is subject to interpretation. Clearly, interpretations vary widely.

Skepticism is a cornerstone of our community, and questioning anything -- including facts, figures and assertions related to the Holocaust -- has generally not been a problem. There has been, however, a growing problem with discussion shifting away from questioning and more toward advocacy.

And some of it is just obvious trolling.

Much like the case with discussion of drugs, a nuanced approach hasn't really worked out very well, so a more straightforward message is needed.

Contrary to assumptions made by some members, the role of the ATS staff is to facilitate discussion, not stifle it. When in doubt, we prefer to give our members the benefit of that doubt. If a post or thread is arguably on the borderline, we leave it to the membership to work it out.

In this case, things have gotten to a point where it makes sense to specify an element of site policy that has always been in effect but may not always have been clear.

"We hate Hitler" can be thought of as a personal sentiment, but I prefer to see it as a simple way to say ATS isn't a place to sing his praises.

If I may be forgiven for drawing an analogy, we can also discuss slavery and Jim Crow laws that were in effect in the U.S. prior to the successes of the Civil Rights Movement. Exploring and debating the subject will never be a problem, but advocating, rationalizing or glorifying slavery or racial oppression (or promoting propaganda issuing from organizations devoted to them) will never be appropriate on ATS.

So it is with Hitler.

As for threads or posts that run afoul of our "anti-Hitler advocacy" stance, I recommend alerting us when you see problems, and we'll look into them. There may be some threads allowed in the past that would now be closed, but that's something we need to determine on a case-by-case basis.

Anyway, it's not a short answer (mine rarely are), but I hope it's a satisfactory one.

Originally posted by Mizzijr
If Hitler was in fact dismantling the Illuminati... would that not make him an awesome man?

Dictators don't share power. Napoleon outlawed secret societies and persecuted them.
You ignored undisputable historical facts, and equated the banned persona with awesome.
Epic fail.

reply to post by Agarta


What part of this don't you get?

TAN reserves the right to establish limits on topics that may be discussed if, in their opinion, the discussion of those topics attract an audience that is counterproductive to maintaining the ideals set forth in the Terms and Conditions of Use and the Terms and Conditions of Membership.

Don't bother answering you're just looking for a fight and I have much, much better things to do.

The law stands, nobody is going glorify Hitler on ATS.

Nobody, we don't deal in ignorance and hatred, we DENY IT.

Springer...

I can see a loophole here.

What if I present evidence of a Timeshift. Before the Timeshift, Hitler was a hero. But the Illuminati found a way to cause a Timeshift, which created a butterfly effect that would cause the ATS Site Owners to incorrectly believe that Hitler was a bad man.

What if I provide the same level of evidence that Chemtrailers provide, and defend it without any consideration of contrary evidence.

Just wondering what a Mod's take on this would be?

Originally posted by Chamberf=6
reply to post by Majic

 

Then I'll repeat my question:

Why are holocaust denial threads allowed in the past?

I have found them detestable but they didn't go away.

There's a big difference - even if it looks the same on the surface

Stumping for Hitler is symbolic - and there's been an active campaign going on here at ATS for a while now

I see no reason why ATS should allow certain groups to proselytize, advertise or recruit here on their site

Let 'them' use their own sites

Discussing Hitler - nazi philosophy and whether or not the holocaust really was as bad as it's been made out to be are all things that can be argued pro and con - but advertising for 'Hitler' is just that - advertising

This site depends on free speech and opinion - but providing an actual platform is not the same thing as allowing for freedom of expression and intelligent debate

'they' will just have to be more intelligent about how they make they're arguments - and probably that will be too much work for them. They're not interested in debate and intelligent discussion - just inception