Zimmerman Accused of Molesting his Cousin.

Originally posted by IpsissimusMagus
reply to post by Sparky63

 

Following someone and asking them what they are doing in your neighborhood is not against the law

It's funny, because usually people who have your attitude are the ones who would react most violently if you were in Martin's position.

That's a huge and very inaccurate assumption to made about me. I am not a violent person. Just ask anyone who knows me.. Oh that;s right, you don't know me or anyone who knows me. Hmmm Guess you will just have to take my word for it.

Originally posted by Sparky63

Originally posted by habitforming

Originally posted by Sparky63
reply to post by PurpleChiten

 

If Treyvon attacked Zimmerman and was beating Zimmermans head against the sidewalk, he deserved to die. In my opinion.

IF

Damn, that's a big one.

Yes, We can all speculate on the IF's. If your not prepared to use deadly force to protect your own life or the life of others you better not carry a gun. Zimmerman made his decision, I just hope he can get a fair trial.

Yeah that is not what happened here. Some lazy jerk who wanted to be a cop and thought he was a neighborhood watchmen decided to get into a confrontation with some black kid because from what he could tell, it was some black male.
That is what happened here.
If Trayvon broke into his home or attacked Zimmerman I might be with you. Too bad that is not what happened here in this situation that we are actually discussing in this thread. You cannot speculate yourself into a completely different scenario.

Originally posted by habitforming

Originally posted by Sparky63

Originally posted by habitforming

Originally posted by Sparky63
reply to post by PurpleChiten

 

If Treyvon attacked Zimmerman and was beating Zimmermans head against the sidewalk, he deserved to die. In my opinion.

IF

Damn, that's a big one.

Yes, We can all speculate on the IF's. If your not prepared to use deadly force to protect your own life or the life of others you better not carry a gun. Zimmerman made his decision, I just hope he can get a fair trial.

Yeah that is not what happened here. Some lazy jerk who wanted to be a cop and thought he was a neighborhood watchmen decided to get into a confrontation with some black kid because from what he could tell, it was some black male.
That is what happened here.
If Trayvon broke into his home or attacked Zimmerman I might be with you. Too bad that is not what happened here in this situation that we are actually discussing in this thread. You cannot speculate yourself into a completely different scenario.

The facts seem to point to Treyvon initiating the attack on Zimmerman. If Zimmerman wasn't breaking the law he did not deserve to be attacked. And if he was attacked, he certainly had the right to defend himself.

reply to post by habitforming


Except even the lead detective conceded he can't prove that george started the confrontation under oath.... Meaning there is no evidence of that.....

So how is it you can claim "that is what happened", yet the lead investigator on the case could not?

Originally posted by Sparky63
The facts seem to point to Treyvon initiating the attack on Zimmerman. If Zimmerman wasn't breaking the law he did not deserve to be attacked. And if he was attacked, he certainly had the right to defend himself.

edit on 7/18/2012 by Sparky63 because: added comment

Oh?
What facts are those?

reply to post by Sparky63


That is a big if.

I don't think that is what the "facts" support at all.
I could be wrong but all early facts indicated otherwise. Zimmerman approached Martin and was stalking him according to what Treyvon told his girl on a cellphone. According to Zimmerman's neighbors Martin was on the ground screaming, begging for his life to be spared.

Originally posted by TKDRL
reply to post by habitforming

 

Except even the lead detective conceded he can't prove that george started the confrontation under oath.... Meaning there is no evidence of that.....

So how is it you can claim "that is what happened", yet the lead investigator on the case could not?

What?
Please explain to me why you do not have a problem with anyone stating as a fact that Zimmerman was the one who was attacked but you have a problem with me stating the opposite when you have no idea which way it actually went?

Originally posted by Verse

Originally posted by Sparky63
reply to post by PurpleChiten

 

If Treyvon attacked Zimmerman and was beating Zimmermans head against the sidewalk, he deserved to die. In my opinion.

LIKE I MEAN - IF YOU...yeah YOU ...harass me and attack me, I attack you back in a craze because i'm not really used to violence and bang your head against the sidewalk in hopes of getting you to stop since you're a stranger who just attacked me I deserve to die????
This is what the FFFFFFFFF is wrong with the world nowadays man...HE DESERVED TO DIE? really? that it? So if you see Zimmerman on the street you're just gonna dap him up and tell him good job? Maybe talk about the guys you've killed who fought you before?

Christ...you "deserved to die" guys are so hard, where can I join your club?

Forget about - he deserved a good ass whooping , he deserved to get his # handed to him ..

noo......

he just DESERVED TO DIE.

If Zimmerman attacked Treyvon then he should be tried for murder. I have no problem with that.If Treyvon was attacked and was merely defending himself then he certainly did not deserve to get shot and die,

But that does not seem to be the case. If Treyvon attacked Zimmerman and Zimmerman used deadly force to protect himself, then all I can say is that it is unfortunate and sad but the killing may have been justified.

I would not want to see Zimmerman convicted under these circumstances.

Originally posted by habitforming

Originally posted by Sparky63
The facts seem to point to Treyvon initiating the attack on Zimmerman. If Zimmerman wasn't breaking the law he did not deserve to be attacked. And if he was attacked, he certainly had the right to defend himself.

edit on 7/18/2012 by Sparky63 because: added comment

Oh?
What facts are those?

The testimony under oath that Zimmerman gave and also the recorded phone call that has Zimmerman screaming. And also the testimony of the witnesses who saw Zimmerman's injuries. I know that none of this is conclusive in itself. That is why I am hoping the whole truth of what took place is revealed in the trial. If the facts show that Zimmerman attacked Treyvon. I have no problem locking him up and throwing away the key.

reply to post by habitforming


The evidence leans that way. George had head injuries and a broken nose. Tray's autopsy showed no injuries other than the bullet and his knuckles. It's not a conclusive fact, but the physical evidence points to it.

I guess it doesn't really matter anyways, the other thread was what, 500 pages or something. And throughout the whole thing, I remember only 4 people changing their mind since the sensationalist onset of the whole thing. People seem to be set in their mind, and no amount of evidence will change it. It's Casey Anthony all over again prettymuch.

Originally posted by newcovenant
reply to post by Sparky63

 

That is a big if.

I don't think that is what the "facts" support at all.
I could be wrong but all early facts indicated otherwise. Zimmerman approached Martin and was stalking him according to what Treyvon told his girl on a cellphone. According to Zimmerman's neighbors Martin was on the ground screaming, begging for his life to be spared.

That is simply not true. I think you have it backwards. The police determined that the voice on the recording was Zimmerman's and the eyewitnesses back up Zimmermans story.

abcnews.go.com...

Witnesses, whose names were redacted from the report, also lent support to Zimmerman's version of what happened.

"He witnesses a black male, wearing a dark colored 'hoodie' on top of a white or Hispanic male and throwing punches 'MMA (mixed martial arts) style,'" the police report of the witness said. "He then heard a pop. He stated that after hearing the pop, he observed the person he had previously observed on top of the other person (the male wearing the hoodie) laid out on the grass."

A second witness described a person on the ground with another straddling him and throwing punches. The man on the bottom was yelling for help, the witness told police.

The documents state that Zimmerman can be heard yelling for help 14 times on a 911 call recorded during the fight.

Don't forget that the previous reports in March & April stating the opposite have been questionable at best. The most recent analysis identifies the screams coming from Zimmerman. I guess we won't for sure until the trial.

Originally posted by TKDRL
reply to post by habitforming

 

The evidence leans that way. George had head injuries and a broken nose. Tray's autopsy showed no injuries other than the bullet and his knuckles. It's not a conclusive fact, but the physical evidence points to it.

I guess it doesn't really matter anyways, the other thread was what, 500 pages or something. And throughout the whole thing, I remember only 4 people changing their mind since the sensationalist onset of the whole thing. People seem to be set in their mind, and no amount of evidence will change it. It's Casey Anthony all over again prettymuch.

When this story broke I posted a comment condemning Zimmerman as a stalker who gunned down an innocent kid. I made that hasty statement based solely on the drivel I got from the media. I should have know better than that. I don't claim to know the whole truth, Maybe Zimmerman attacked Martin? If the evidence proves that to be the case I will be the first to call for harsh punishment. But if Zimmerman is telling the truth and the witnesses back him up. I can't see condemning him for protecting himself from a violent attack.

Originally posted by Sparky63
The testimony under oath that Zimmerman gave

Cuz there is no way the guy that pulled the trigger might lie to save his own ass. After all, he was under oath.

and also the recorded phone call that has Zimmerman screaming.

How does that demonstrate who initiated it?

And also the testimony of the witnesses who saw Zimmerman's injuries.

How does that demonstrate who initiated it?

I know that none of this is conclusive in itself.

It is nothing.

That is why I am hoping the whole truth of what took place is revealed in the trial. If the facts show that Zimmerman attacked Treyvon. I have no problem locking him up and throwing away the key.

You already decided who attacked who and you keep saying so.
Nothing you just posted is evidence of who attacked who unless you can explain to me how.

Originally posted by TKDRL
reply to post by habitforming

 

The evidence leans that way. George had head injuries and a broken nose. Tray's autopsy showed no injuries other than the bullet and his knuckles. It's not a conclusive fact, but the physical evidence points to it.

He had one small bruise on ONE KNUCKLE. So that actually shows he was not punching ANYONE. But again, how does ANY OF THIS EXPLAIN WHO INITIATED IT?

I guess it doesn't really matter anyways, the other thread was what, 500 pages or something. And throughout the whole thing, I remember only 4 people changing their mind since the sensationalist onset of the whole thing. People seem to be set in their mind, and no amount of evidence will change it. It's Casey Anthony all over again prettymuch.

Well if you can tell me how any of this explains who initiated it I am an open minded person. I just cannot force myself to believe something that makes no sense to me.

Originally posted by habitforming

Originally posted by Sparky63
The testimony under oath that Zimmerman gave

Cuz there is no way the guy that pulled the trigger might lie to save his own ass. After all, he was under oath.

and also the recorded phone call that has Zimmerman screaming.

How does that demonstrate who initiated it?

And also the testimony of the witnesses who saw Zimmerman's injuries.

How does that demonstrate who initiated it?

I know that none of this is conclusive in itself.

It is nothing.

That is why I am hoping the whole truth of what took place is revealed in the trial. If the facts show that Zimmerman attacked Treyvon. I have no problem locking him up and throwing away the key.

You already decided who attacked who and you keep saying so.
Nothing you just posted is evidence of who attacked who unless you can explain to me how.

I never stated definitively that Martin attacked Zimmerman. I have not already decided the facts of the case.
I said the facts SEEM to point to point to Martin as the attacker. If the facts prove otherwise, I will acknowledge that. I am open to the possibility that Zimmerman attacked Martin first, but so far there is no evidence or testimony to support that notion.

Originally posted by habitforming

Originally posted by Sparky63
The testimony under oath that Zimmerman gave

Cuz there is no way the guy that pulled the trigger might lie to save his own ass. After all, he was under oath.

If you listen to the audio you will hear the screaming for help, (coming from Zimmerman it seems) and then the sound of the gun firing.
The witness also supports this.
Zimmerman could be lying about attacking Martin first, but there is no evidence to support that.

Originally posted by TKDRL
reply to post by habitforming

 

The evidence leans that way. George had head injuries and a broken nose. Tray's autopsy showed no injuries other than the bullet and his knuckles. It's not a conclusive fact, but the physical evidence points to it.

I guess it doesn't really matter anyways, the other thread was what, 500 pages or something. And throughout the whole thing, I remember only 4 people changing their mind since the sensationalist onset of the whole thing. People seem to be set in their mind, and no amount of evidence will change it. It's Casey Anthony all over again prettymuch.

Actually, in the beginning and on the other thread, I was defending Zimmerman. At that time, with the evidence that was presented, it was my belief that Zimmerman acted as he should and was innocent. Things have changed since then and more information has come out as well as very good points that got me to re-evaluate my thinking.

I was looking at it from a personal standpoint instead of a legal and logical standpoint. I had seen many teens that would be (rightly) considered "thugs" and saw their reactions in various circumstances. That made be believe that Zimmerman was right in what he did. I was wrong.

With the additional information that has come out, it has become apparent that Zimmerman escalated the situation, was wrong in the beginning for pursuing Martin and is responsible for what happened. A calm, logical argument can make a world of difference for people who are willing to listen and follow the conversation. It changed my mind and I'm pretty stubborn and hard headed at times, especially if it's based on personal experience and emotion.

I'm not saying Martin was innocent of anything, he may very well have been a "thug" and may not have been, I don't know because I don't know either of the two. However, as the adult, as the neighborhood watch representative, Zimmerman was wrong in his actions and his actions are what led to the death.

I will say that since the beginning, I have been saying and will continue to say that it isn't a "racial" thing at all and would have happened regardless of the race of the two involved given the same circumstance.

Originally posted by Sparky63

When this story broke I posted a comment condemning Zimmerman as a stalker who gunned down an innocent kid. I made that hasty statement based solely on the drivel I got from the media. I should have know better than that. I don't claim to know the whole truth, Maybe Zimmerman attacked Martin? If the evidence proves that to be the case I will be the first to call for harsh punishment. But if Zimmerman is telling the truth and the witnesses back him up. I can't see condemning him for protecting himself from a violent attack.

edit on 7/18/2012 by Sparky63 because: spelling

So you and I have basically changed sides on it due to what we see as the information that has been provided. Interesting....

Could you maybe U2U me what news source you watch so we can keep that part off the thread, I'm just curious for other reasons and would like to add that information to another area of interest I have concerning how media can be used to change our minds about events. If anyone else has had a change of mind about it, please let me know and what it was that caused the change. I won't go on and on about it here because it's not the topic of the thread but would love to have that information and am curious about it.

Thanks

Originally posted by PurpleChiten

Could you maybe U2U me what news source you watch so we can keep that part off the thread, I'm just curious for other reasons and would like to add that information to another area of interest I have concerning how media can be used to change our minds about events. If anyone else has had a change of mind about it, please let me know and what it was that caused the change. I won't go on and on about it here because it's not the topic of the thread but would love to have that information and am curious about it.

Thanks

I would like to honor your request but I did not keep a record of the multiple news sources I have read or heard. I live in Central Florida, not too far from where this happened and there is a constant flow of discussion about this on the radio as well as local newspapers. The main thing that led me to reconsider my initial reaction was the injuries Zimmerman had, the lack of injuries martin had, the audio recording of Zimmerman calling for help, the eye witness accounts and the police reports.
I am keeping an open mind. If more evidence comes forward I am certainly willing to reconsider.

Originally posted by PurpleChiten
With the additional information that has come out, it has become apparent that Zimmerman escalated the situation, was wrong in the beginning for pursuing Martin and is responsible for what happened.

I agree that Zimmerman escalated the situation to a point. But it seems to me that Treyvon escalated the situation to the point of violence. Once that happened, Zimmerman had every right to defend himself. It cannot be denied that if Zimmerman had just stopped following him that none of this would have happened.

I will say that since the beginning, I have been saying and will continue to say that it isn't a "racial" thing at all and would have happened regardless of the race of the two involved given the same circumstance.

I totally agree.