Deputies shoot, kill man after knocking on wrong door

Any proof he actually pointed it at a police officer. Is there any reference to state law about pointing a gun at someone, at your door, being a crime. That implies pointing it at a person threatening you is a crime.

reply to post by getreadyalready


wrong again, he can answer the door with it pointing at anyone who didn't identify themselves, you seem to be missing that little issue. it doesn't specify whether he asked who it was at the door, but it does say they didn't identify themselves so that's really all we have to go on and i suspect they wouldn't tell the truth anyway.

i'm not saying you or anyone else should do things this way, just that the law is on his side in several ways for this case at hand.

reply to post by getreadyalready


You're the voice of reason here, in that any number of reasons for a knock on the door, such as your neighbor's child is injured, or the house on fire. I think usually, but not always, a true criminal would not want to wake you when they broke in.

But I could picture a young inexperienced person, or even an elderly person, doing just what this guy did, easily.

There should be courses, free of charge, or using a sliding scale from nothing to small, required with guns. And not just how to clean them or shoot them, target practice. But how to handle a variety of situtions, such as this one. This should taught and enacted by all people with a gun.

reply to post by xyankee


They did find drugs in the victims apartment, I guess it makes what they did ok then (sarcasm).
Usually ya slander a person first, then kill em.... but, I guess the switch around works too. *sigh

Why do all you American answer your doors with guns?

Is America so bad that you can't trust anyone? I mean I obviously feel for the guy's family, but I don't think anyone in America is brave enough to do anything about it, despite you owning guns to protect yourself against the government etc.

But seriously, 1.30 am isn't that late - why do you lot always get so freaked out, or do you just have a higher content of mentalists in the USA?

Gun school to learn do not answer the door with a gun? The next lesson is all bad guys knock, you open, they kick the door and you down.

And of course a bad guy knocking is never going to lie about who he is or his intent, right?

reply to post by roadgravel


The "pointing" aspect is convenient since one party is dead, we only get one side of the story. That is something that is always a point of contention in these debates, and for good reason! "Dead men tell no lies," is something I was always taught in gun training. If you have to shoot someone, you make sure they are dead. BUT, in the context of this thread, the dead man doesn't get to tell anything, it might be the cops lying!

BUT, there is a law for brandishing, and here it is F.S. 790.10....

790.10 Improper exhibition of dangerous weapons or firearms.—If any person having or carrying any dirk, sword, sword cane, firearm, electric weapon or device, or other weapon shall, in the presence of one or more persons, exhibit the same in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense, the person so offending shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

There are a ton of responses on Google for the search term "can you brandish a weapon in your home," but unfortunately most of them are blocked by my work computer. I saw a couple of blog entries that match what I've been saying, but I didn't see anything official, or any legal precedents.

If you can follow the links that are blocked to me, I'd be interested to see the results!

Why do all you American answer your doors with guns?

because the bad guys and police show up with guns...

reply to post by getreadyalready


But that might be in public, not one's property.

reply to post by getreadyalready


I normally agree with a lot of the posts you make on this site, but I have to say I think you are dead wrong on this one. If you see the front door of the house you will see a number of bullet holes in the door, can you explain that? If he opened the door carelessly and suppressed the cops how come the holes are in the door. I don't like this one and I feel you are just making excuses for the cops, these guys were completely wrong in there procedure and there actions. They should be held accountable.

reply to post by xyankee


Stand your ground should be admissible against LEOS....

Im sorry but people have the right to protect themselves, even against them.....

granted if youre a criminal you should get the hardest punishments available.......but if you break into my house and ive done nothing wrong, im putting a bullet in you I dont care who you are end of story.....

Such a sad state of affairs this country is turning in to.......

Right to bare arms is in place for exactly the reasons our countries direction seems to be moving......

reply to post by getreadyalready


brandishing doesn't apply to answering your door to unspecified and unidentified presence, presence who refused to identify themselves. if the police didn't voluntarily identify themselves then in fact they refused to identify themselves.

We don't know exactly how this went down. Perhaps he opened the door partly, with his gun behind the door just in case, but the still unidentified police thinking they have an alleged attempted murder suspect, they charged at and pushed the door open revealing him with a gun, so with their guns all at the ready they shot him. That sounds more likely than a guy answering the door gun-barrel first.

KNOCK-KNOCK. "Police! Open up, we have a warrant!" Or open up, we have possible cause in this case. This doesn't sound too difficult to do but maybe the proper approach would have compromised their strategic edge.

Are we teaching kids how to submit to police authority in public schools? Perhaps we need to teach them the proper procedure for what to do when the police are pounding on their door in middle of the night. This needs to be drilled into their heads so they will take they proper actions when groggily awakened from sleep by heavy and persistent pounding on their doors. Of course criminals hiding out will probably suspect the police have caught up with them, but what about the innocent guy who might not know what is going on or sleepily rationalize the scenario?

Perhaps fourth-graders should drill being hand-cuffed and taken into custody submissively, not because they may become hunted criminals later in life but because there is every possibility they may be mistaken for one. This could help prevent the woman in her 70's being tazed for being argumentative at a traffic stop, and worse scenarios.

I sincerely doubt there is much remorse in this case, except perhaps for the trigger-men that might be dreading disciplinary action or being assigned office-duty instead of paid leave during an investigation. Of course the traumatizing experience all the involved officers faced will likely warrant some leave time in order for them to recover from this tragedy. Most of the department, I'm sure, will be gathering at their neighborhood police watering hole and talking about what a scum-sucker the innocent man was anyway and what a relief to have him off the streets to prevent any future encounter with him - he had drugs in his house, afterall. Then I expect they will toast another round to the brave officers that were doing their sworn and civic duty. Cheers, America!

reply to post by Unity_99

There should be courses, free of charge, or using a sliding scale from nothing to small, required with guns. And not just how to clean them or shoot them, target practice. But how to handle a variety of situtions, such as this one. This should taught and enacted by all people with a gun.

I agree completely. Our Concealed Weapons course in Florida is a joke. Anyone with half a brain can get the permit, and they don't have to know a thing about gun etiquette. The hunter safety course in Missouri is better and more useful than the concealed course in Florida. My course was literally 3 hours of mundane junk, and then shooting a light-load blank into a trashcan full of sand, just to satisfy the live-fire requirement. It was a joke.

People should have a real course on real gun safety and gun etiquette.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by LittleBlackEagle

 

I'm in Florida, and I love my guns! I also love the fact that we expanded the Castle Doctrine a few years ago. I also would NEVER just allow cops into my home without a warrant.

If you've followed my postings, about 4 years ago my house was raided by a SWAT team, helicopter over head, full riot gear, and my 90lb Pitbull charged the police attempting to secure the back door! My wife and parents had no idea what was going on, I wasn't home, we had a 1 year old and my wife was pregnant with our second. My dog went nuts at the back door, scared my wife, so she let him out. The dog charged out, she heard cussing and scrambling, then a knock at the front door, my family armed themselves and asked who it was. They didn't open the door, they waited, and the police then identified themselves and read what was on the warrant, and my Dad eventually let them in and went peacefully.

They didn't shoot my dog, they didn't shoot my Dad, they didn't confiscate my guns. The police acted very responsibly and professionally, because my family acted very responsibly.

If my Dad had swung the door open wide while wielding a pistol, they would have surely shot him!

Castle Doctrine does not give someone the right to wield or brandish a weapon based on irrational fear of a stranger at the door. It is for those specific occasions where you are in fear for your life from a KNOWN threat, not an unknown one.

Without knowing the facts, I'd say you got lucky. Normally, depending on the warrant, if SWAT is there they kick down the door immediately after knocking, they do not wait around to be asked for a cup of tea and a coffee cake (i mean, it's SWAT). Very strange situation, even stranger that what with SWAT, helicopters, etc, they entered and left peacefully. *scratches head*

As far as Castle Doctrine, one might not have the right to wield or brandish in a threatening way, but one has the right to arm oneself, hold, possess, etc a weapon in one's own home. One can also wield a weapon insofar as holding/being capable of using it, but not using it. I have the right to carry a gun to my door when i answer it, but i don't have the right to point it; i have the right to carry a sword or any other weapon, including carrying it while approaching someone in my yard, but not to threaten unless i am threatened.

Originally posted by LittleBlackEagle
reply to post by getreadyalready

 

brandishing doesn't apply to answering your door to unspecified and unidentified presence, presence who refused to identify themselves. if the police didn't voluntarily identify themselves then in fact they refused to identify themselves.

i want to reiterate in case anyone is taking my comments the wrong way. had this been a fellow officer answering his door i would feel the same way. i don't hate cops and in fact have a friend who is a detective and a nephew who is an officer.

what i see here is incompetence and negligence on the part of the officers in charge of the scene and they killed an innocent man in his own home. life is precious and must be protected by procedures designed to keep things like this from happening.

reply to post by ManBehindTheMask

Stand your ground should be admissible against LEOS....

Im sorry but people have the right to protect themselves, even against them.....

It is. And there was just a wonderful finding in some state upholding that it is. A person has a right to defend their self, even against LEO's. There were a couple of threads on ATS about the recent ruling, but I can't look for them right now.

For everyone else,
I'm not trying to make excuses for the cops, they shouldn't have shot this guy, but I'm saying the guy was an idiot with his handling of the gun, and he bears some of the responsibility for his stupid actions.

When I get pulled over, I verbalize what I'm going to do, before I do it. No sudden movements, I don't want to get killed over some misunderstanding. If I am going to open my door, I make sure I know who is on the other side first, and if I'm going to hold my gun when I do it, I make sure it is cocked and the safety off, and I put it behind my back or leg so it isn't readily apparent. I don't want them shooting first, if someone needs shot, I want the element of surprise. Sun Tzu, feign weakness where you are strong, and feign strength where you are weak.

In fact, when I knock on a stranger's door, I step to the side, just in case the person behind the door is paranoid and thinks I am a cop or a criminal and decides to blast the door!

The cops should have more restraint, they should be more recognizable, and they should be more prepared and make sure they are at the right damn house. But the guy should not have swung open the door to strangers while holding or pointing a gun.

reply to post by getreadyalready

Brandishing A Firearm: Revealing a firearm to one more individuals in a threatening manner. Even if the person legally owns the firearm they are brandishing and the incident occurs on their own property, they can still be charged with this offense. If the accused offender felt threatened and brandished the firearm as a means to defend themselves, then it is up to the defendant's legal defense to argue this in front of a judge.

From this site: Morris Law Group ( a Florida defense attorney)

I think that it may be reasonable to argue that the man may have felt threatened by unannounced persons beating on his door and 1:30 am, especially if he was awakened from a sound sleep.

With what the police accomplished in their error, he should have felt threatened IMO, since he ended up dead because they made multiple mistakes.

Man, this is a tough one to analyze. I have been led to believe that police officers are supposed to knock, and if it is during the late evening or early morning hours? It should be a knock and a loud announcement of their presence. Any one at your door at those hours is usually up to no good. If it is in a bad neighborhood someone knocking on the door could be attempting a home invasion or a robbery. Then we have to keep in mind criminals impersonating the police as well to get into a residence. It is a crazy situation.

I would expect that this situation well get a thorough review by investigators, and a judgment will be made in account of the deputies conduct. If they followed standard procedure? There is not much to say, but a horrific accident occurred. I am fairly certain, the victim's family will be adequately compensated for their loss. Lets wait until more information comes out before we start bashing cops. They were looking for a man that allegedly attempted murder. I would want them to leave no stone unturned to get a person like that off the streets. Good thing they caught the suspects, but it is bad that a innocent man loss their life in what looks a strange twist of circumstances.

Cops pounding on the door not identifying themselves with guns drawn and they have the wrong residence Wow. The sick thing about it is they don't have any remorse whatsoever because they believe they are in the right. Well maybe we should just shoot through door first and then ask who it is later.