The Illuminati - WHAT IF YOU MET THEM?

Originally posted by W3RLIED2
You can go join the illuminati here. Its free.

The Bavarians had the right idea.

The presentation of the philosophy on the Illuminati web site link provided is the basis of Free Choice and both personal and Universal liberty.
Therefore those who are branded as the Illuminati or use that name in vain are usurpers for The Illuminati does not in reality exist unless it is being resurrected from the ashes of the Bavarian Illuminati - as far as I can see.

So the Queen of England ETC ETC are not Illuminati - She is an old woman living out a deceit for all are equal no matter what gown or hat they wear - I hope one day this game of charades and deceit will fade away and Reality kick in.

Originally posted by NAMTERCES
After all, you're a descendant in the same tradition of those men in the guilds that possessed the skills of working in stone.

No Templar ever knew how to cut a block or place a stone to start a wall or finish a building.

Who do you most resemble?

That has got to be the biggest logical fallacy I have seen here in some time on so many levels.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

That has got to be the biggest logical fallacy I have seen here in some time on so many levels.

Why logical fallacy? Have you never hear the saying "By their fruits you shall know them?"

I know a builder, he casts and places stone.

If someone comes to me and says he is a Mason, I say where is the stone ye cut and fitted?

If he says to me, "Sorry, we don't do that any more, we just sit and speculate about it", then that's no builder.

Originally posted by NAMTERCES

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

That has got to be the biggest logical fallacy I have seen here in some time on so many levels.

Why logical fallacy? Have you never hear the saying "By their fruits you shall know them?"

I know a builder, he casts and places stone.

If someone comes to me and says he is a Mason, I say where is the stone ye cut and fitted?

If he says to me, "Sorry, we don't do that any more, we just sit and speculate about it", then that's no builder.

lol I wonder if you are really that smart, or just lucked into what is actually an insightful commentary.......based on your other posts though I am pretty sure it's luck...

Most masons today speculate....they even just "speculate" about "speculative" masonry.......the building is seldom done by any but a few, crusty diehards, usually cast aside as being too deep by the rest.......

But masons are not nor were they ever what one would call "Illuminati". For my part I think there are newer groups with their same general idealogy of the historical illuminati.....they think they are builders but they are simply destroyers, including of themselves.....you see very smart people are likely to make a huge logical mistake, the smarter they are, the more likely they are to make it...they don't seem to recognize that the source or their power is the very thing they would destroy....and that the truth about nature is they are the least equiped to deal with it and survive it......

If I could ask a question it would be how they ever thought it would all turn out in their favor....they can create the crisis, but I don't think they will survive it. But the people i am thinking of do not call themselves Illuminati....but they are the only ones I think today who match that popular myth. A man who is not humble.......even if he is a genius he is a fool....

reply to post by NAMTERCES

Ummmm...I'd definitely question some of the assertions and the credibility of that page. Stephen Dafoe wrote a great book about the Templar-Masonry theory, and how many of the perpetuation myths are easily debunked, but he did point out that some of the biggest culprits of perpetuating these myths were sometimes Freemasons...even though they were completely untrue.

As for your cited quote, the Templar Inquisition was only really relevant in France. In Germany, they were miraculously found innocent after a garrison of Templars appeared at the trials in full armament...crazy how that works out. In Spain, they simply became the Knights of Christ. In England, the trials were a joke and it took some time for the Papacy to send a team there to enforce any kind of inquisition. In Scotland, it didn't happen, which anyone who knows that the country was basically excommunicated.

After the Inquisition, there were plenty of stories around Europe about white knights showing up to save the day.

The theory that knights "infiltrated" the Lodges is a weak argument. I'm curious as to the author's claim that the Templar philosophy was deviant in any way.

This thesis is supported by much historical evidence, and is also accepted today by a large number of Western historians, whether they are Freemasons or not.

Yeah, this is completely inaccurate.

Now on to the rest of your post. I'm currently doing some extensive research into the early years and development of the Royal Arch degrees, which includes doing research in the Craft Masonry degrees, and there is some records that show plenty of activity prior to the establishment of the Grand Lodge of England in 1717. The manuscripts that I mentioned prior that date Freemasonry back to the time of King Athelstan are not exactly solid, but they stand up as stronger fact than the theory of Templars taking over Freemasonry. There exists no document that can truly take us back to the time of the pyramids and the ancient days from which we pull our legend for Craft Masonry.

There exists no proof that the Templars introduced anything into our Lodges. In American Freemasonry, the two men who had the biggest affect on our ritual were William Preston, but more importantly Thomas Smith Webb (considered the Father of the American Rite). The development of our rituals is an interesting study.

You should also look up what speculative is and what operative is.

I also think that you underestimate the effect the Enlightenment Age had on Freemasonry and its transition to pure speculative Freemasonry.

There were no Freemasons prior to 1717.

Completely incorrect.

reply to post by NAMTERCES

So who of the drafters of the Constitution were Freemasons and who were not?

Oh God, you really don't understand the real history of Freemasonry...or history in general.

reply to post by NAMTERCES

No, there is no established concrete evidence that connects the Templars and the Masons; it's all just theories. This is just fact.

If you're a Freemason, ask yourself, how come you don't know the sacred art of making and placing stone?

Because we're not operative Masons?

After all, you're a descendant in the same tradition of those men in the guilds that possessed the skills of working in stone.

No Templar ever knew how to cut a block or place a stone to start a wall or finish a building.

Who do you most resemble?

This is so illogical. Just because speculative Masons don't do stone work and Templars didn't do stonework doesn't mean we're one and the same. Look up "non sequitur" under the categories of logical fallacy.

Originally posted by NAMTERCES
Why logical fallacy? Have you never hear the saying "By their fruits you shall know them?"

The logical fallacy of, 'Masons built stuff, Templars did not, Masons no longer build stuff, therefore they must now be Templars.'

You need to get your pal to beam some better telepathic arguements into your head, you know, some actually built on facts and reason.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Snakey
Wiki is not alwayz right. The word "mason" as of the Illuminati has latin origin. It means sun and something else.

Uh, no. Try using a dictionary instead of guessing.

mason (n.)
c.1200, "stoneworker" (as a surname, early 12c.), from O.Fr. masson, maçon "stone mason" (O.N.Fr. machun), probaby from Frankish *makjo or some other Germanic source (cf. O.H.G. steinmezzo "stone mason," Mod.Ger. Steinmetz, second element related to mahhon "to make;" see make (v.)). But it also might be from, or influenced by, M.L. machio, matio (7c.) which is said by Isidore to be derived from machina (see machine). The medieval word also might be from the root of L. maceria "wall." Meaning "a Freemason" is attested from early 15c. in Anglo-French.

Uh, don't quote me dictionaries. They are copies of copies of copies. You.ll be running in circles if you just relie so called facts.

There always was secret knowledge since the begining of humanity. People discovered that it offered lots of benefits and they kept the knowledge for themselves as long as they could. Today is no diffrent.The big question is wether there is a consious and organised transfer of secret knowledge and if so, how long has it been going. The american government keeps lots of stuff away from the praying eye of the mob. It is doing so for at least 100 years, most likely longer. The people who are in charge of America today most likley know much more than you do. You can call them the Illuminati and you can ballpark the total of 200 years as the measure of their historical orientation in things never undisclosed or disclosed later, in a diffrent context, etc...That makes you ponder what can be the actual time scope of secret knowledge shared by few and having been transfered to the 21st century

Originally posted by Snakey

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Snakey
Wiki is not alwayz right. The word "mason" as of the Illuminati has latin origin. It means sun and something else.

Uh, no. Try using a dictionary instead of guessing.

mason (n.)
c.1200, "stoneworker" (as a surname, early 12c.), from O.Fr. masson, maçon "stone mason" (O.N.Fr. machun), probaby from Frankish *makjo or some other Germanic source (cf. O.H.G. steinmezzo "stone mason," Mod.Ger. Steinmetz, second element related to mahhon "to make;" see make (v.)). But it also might be from, or influenced by, M.L. machio, matio (7c.) which is said by Isidore to be derived from machina (see machine). The medieval word also might be from the root of L. maceria "wall." Meaning "a Freemason" is attested from early 15c. in Anglo-French.

Uh, don't quote me dictionaries. They are copies of copies of copies. You.ll be running in circles if you just repeat facts.

There always was secret knowledge since the begining of humanity. People discovered that it offered lots of benefits and they kept the knowledge for themselves as long as they could. Today is no diffrent.The big question is wether there is a consious and organised transfer of secret knowledge and if so, how long has it been going. The american government keeps lots of stuff away from the praying eye of the mob. It is doing so for at least 100 years, most likely longer. The people who are in charge of America today most likley know much more than you do. You can call them the Illuminati and you can ballpark the total of 200 years as the measure of their historical orientation in things never undisclosed or disclosed later, in a diffrent context, etc...That makes you ponder what can be the actual time scope of secret knowledge shared by few and having been transfered to the 21st century

Originally posted by ForkandSpoon
lol I wonder if you are really that smart, or just lucked into what is actually an insightful commentary.......based on your other posts though I am pretty sure it's luck...

No, it's not luck. I'm not really that smart either. I don't need to be. I just write down the words HE gives to me. If you find some particular meaning in them, because of your special experience, then that's your smarts at work here, not mine. That's how HE communicates with you, using my hand to facilitate the work.These words are your mirror, when you look into them, you see your own mind.

Most masons today speculate....they even just "speculate" about "speculative" masonry.......the building is seldom done by any but a few, crusty diehards, usually cast aside as being too deep by the rest.......

You mean the secretive Freemasons have an even more secretive inner circle? I'm surprised to hear any mason admit that, for usually the dogma is that all master masons are equal, there's no higher degree than 3rd degree, all the rest are side orders, on a horizontal plane, so to speak, not any higher than the 3rd.

But masons are not nor were they ever what one would call "Illuminati".

This is true. Masons learn from other masons. Like an Apprentice learns from the Master of a Craft.

That could never be "illumination", by any measure. For, to be illuminated indicates that some "light" from a divine being enters you and "reveals" something which you could not learn from your brother.

Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we are? Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart? -- KJV Job 38:35

For the one initiator is the only one with the power,

I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, -- KJV Jeremiah 31:33-34

So saith the one initiator.

For my part I think there are newer groups with their same general idealogy of the historical illuminati.....they think they are builders but they are simply destroyers, including of themselves.....you see very smart people are likely to make a huge logical mistake, the smarter they are, the more likely they are to make it...they don't seem to recognize that the source or their power is the very thing they would destroy....and that the truth about nature is they are the least equiped to deal with it and survive it......

We have no power, we cannot build that which is essential, nor destroy that which is good.

But, we can do a lot of speculation.

If I could ask a question it would be how they ever thought it would all turn out in their favor...

Because HE guideth our hand.

even if he is a genius he is a fool....

If a man knows what he can do, and what he cannot do, then he might be rightly labeled a genius. But if he believes he can do things which he clearly cannot, then surely that is folly.

Originally posted by Snakey
Uh, don't quote me dictionaries.

No, you are right, let us forget the etymology of words and just make stuff up.

Originally posted by KSigMason

There exists no document that can truly take us back to the time of the pyramids and the ancient days from which we pull our legend for Craft Masonry.

There is a document. It is the pyramid itself. It only encodes the principles of the operative craft of stone masonry, however, not the Templar additions.

I would tell them I'm Santa Claus from the 11th section of the Sombrero Galaxy, and I came to take their pipe tobacco and cookies.

well that would be a great opportunity, I do believe in the Illuminati. Just the possibility to be with some participants would be a dream. But, if they control everything and they know what's about to happen, doesn't that end with our free-will? Despite of being those who are in control I would love to ask things like if teletransportation or time travel are possible, if it's true every single thing that is said about them, I would like to know their real story.
Recently some people stated that they aren't even human, is that a true statement?