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Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne
A percept needs to have an object that is perceived.
If it can be argued that objects are indeed only thought, why don't you do so? I am interested to hear how you can deny the universe and all the evidence that shows otherwise.
Finally. An argument. It's about time you grew a pair and entered the ring.
Your argument is liken to me saying Dog is a cat.
If this is what you think consciousness is, why didn't you just use the word 'thought' in the beginning? We apparently weren't even arguing about the same thing.
Now that we have your initial contradiction sorted out, and I am finally conscious of the fact you think that every single thing in the universe is thought rather than consciousness, I finally have a grasp on your foundation.
First of all, there is no empirical evidence to support your claims.
Even descartes thought the physical world existed (but you would only know that if you read his work), yet you have the audacity to use his overused quote to support your claim.
Second, if the universe is illusory, then all your thoughts, ideas, consciousness and every ideal you cling to would be illusory as well. Or do they somehow not reside in the universe?
Third, how you can even conceive of mind without matter defies all logic and common sense.
Even Descartes knew this.
That's your problem, you expect too much.
Like I expected, like many skeptics, you don't even know what you are talking about exactly.
Show me anything besides a youtube video that corroborates your claims.
Originally posted by TraitorKiller
reply to post by warpig221
We can only prove that everything happens within our perception, we cannot prove that anything happens or exists outside of our perception.
Originally posted by irontalon
Why can't it just be there even if no one knows or thinks of it being there?
Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne
Originally posted by 1littlewolf
Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne
Originally posted by warpig221
Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne
]consciousness wouldn't exist without matter.
I think it's funny that you speak like you know for certain.
Please point us to the biochemical process responsible for the conscious experience. I eagerly await.
I think its funny you speak as if you know for certain.
Please point me to consciousness without matter. I eagerly await. But I won't hold my breath.
If consciousness can effect matter beyond the confines of the human body (i.e the double slit experiment) would not the next logical step suggest that consciousness is not bound by matter, and therefore does not need it to exist....?
You should look into the double split experiment a bit more and read the what the physicists and reviewers have to say. The only ones who assert that it is consciousness affecting the result are pseudo-scientists such as Deepak Chopra who aim to fit it into their biased metaphysics and men who are trying to sell books.
Either way, interpretations are only conjecture.edit on 16-7-2012 by TheSubversiveOne because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by 1littlewolf
Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne
Originally posted by 1littlewolf
Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne
Originally posted by warpig221
Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne
]consciousness wouldn't exist without matter.
I think it's funny that you speak like you know for certain.
Please point us to the biochemical process responsible for the conscious experience. I eagerly await.
I think its funny you speak as if you know for certain.
Please point me to consciousness without matter. I eagerly await. But I won't hold my breath.
If consciousness can effect matter beyond the confines of the human body (i.e the double slit experiment) would not the next logical step suggest that consciousness is not bound by matter, and therefore does not need it to exist....?
You should look into the double split experiment a bit more and read the what the physicists and reviewers have to say. The only ones who assert that it is consciousness affecting the result are pseudo-scientists such as Deepak Chopra who aim to fit it into their biased metaphysics and men who are trying to sell books.
Either way, interpretations are only conjecture.edit on 16-7-2012 by TheSubversiveOne because: (no reason given)
I have; and what you say is not completely true. There are many eminent physicists who support the consciousness hypothesis. They may not be all be prepared to take their quite as far as those who made such docos as 'What The Bleep', you also have to keep in mind of the 10 or 11 scientists who appeared on that film only one disagreed with the films conclsions.
There have also been double blind experiments conducted which prove the effects are caused by human observation and have nothing to do with proximity of the recording equipment etc. While the conclusions regarding consciousness actually causing effects in reality on a macro scale maybe be a little far-fetched for many scientists who quite rightly will only take their conculsions as far as what can be proven experimentally, there is one fact which cannot be ignored.
The human mind effects the particles which are the very building blocks of all matter and energy in this universe
This is a proven fact and shows that the human consciousness is not bound by the physical body. What conclusions you make after this short of further scientific experimentation are your own but it opens a rabbit hole which questions the very nature of reality as we know it.
Also while it doesn't completely disprove your premise of 'consciousness without matter', (in fact this would be almost impossible as there is matter everywhere in the universe in various concentrations) it does , as I have stated already, show that the mind can and does effect other matter beyond the confines of the physical human shell.
It's solipsistic to think our own consciousness can affect matter, despite the fact nothing has proven that mind can affect matter. We only wish it to be true. It's self-centeredness, and can be debunked by going outside and trying to affect matter with the mind. It just doesn't happen. There's too many variables to just conclude that "it must've been because we were watching it."
Second, we don't live on a quantum level. Nothing does.
Originally posted by TraitorKiller
reply to post by TheSubversiveOne
No there are no variables. The experiments are setup in a way so that there are no outside forces influencing the particles in the exp.
So jeah, something "magical" is going on. Get used to it.
Every instrument, "observer," and the result of the experiment is entirely synthetic—made up by man. How does this explain reality? It doesn't, you only wish it does.
Originally posted by TraitorKiller
reply to post by TheSubversiveOne
Like I established mutiple posts back, you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
I tried to explain to you why these result are so remarkable but you just seem to ignore that, and you clearly don't know which experiments I'm talking about, referring to YT.
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
arstechnica.com...
Every instrument, "observer," and the result of the experiment is entirely synthetic—made up by man. How does this explain reality? It doesn't, you only wish it does.
Again, these experiments prove that the intstruments don't influence the wave function. you have no clue buddy, like most of the skeptics I encounter.edit on 18-7-2012 by TraitorKiller because: (no reason given)
Again, Every instrument, "observer," and the result of the experiment is entirely synthetic—made up by man. How does this explain reality?
Your failure to think for yourself is sheep-like at best.
Show me in nature how particles act this way, show me a place in the universe where there are only two slits and particles flying through them, show me without having to find everything through layers of powerful electron and screens.
Show me in nature how particles act this way, show me a place in the universe where there are only two slits and particles flying through them, show me without having to find everything through layers of powerful electron and screens.
You think asking this in ATS will provide THE answer?
I studied physics.
I'm Rick James..bitch!
So far, no proof matter is self aware.