Survey: How Many Have Switched from Extraterrestrial Hypothesis to Interdimensional?

reply to post by The GUT


Hey there Gut, long time... I think you already know my stand on the issue. I'll of course raise my hand with you. I don't think I'll elaborate any more than that, I hate getting into debates on here. I almost never post any more because the whole tone of the site feels different nowadays... not this thread for the most part, but I just don't like to waste time arguing with people.

Originally posted by Morg234
After reading a lot of Hynek, I've certainly expanded to it, including both possibilities equally.

It seems that many tend to apply the ETH (extraterrestrial hypothesis) and EDH (extra-dimensional hypothesis) to the same phenomenon of the extraterrestrial question, when in fact they deal with very divergent concepts.

I pray that I am not reading into posts that refer to the Hynek and/or Vallée hypothesis in a way that suggests they believed in extra dimensional 'extraterrestrials'. If so, I offer my humble apologies in advance.

However, I simply wanted to mention that both Hynek and Vallée used the EDH as an advent to scientifically denounce the possibility that UFOs and contact experiences were non-terrestrial flesh and blood aliens (ETH) from other planets. Both of them believed that aliens are not capable of traveling light years to our system and that physical and circumstantial evidence were preju'dicially chosen to characterize proof of visiting space travelers.

The general flavor of the Hynek/Vallée collaboration concluded that the EDH is a phenomenon of terrestrial origin and that the beings (ostensibly posing as extraterrestrials) are not necessarily physical as we understand it. Hence, the connection between these beings and folkloric entities throughout history.

Vallée goes on to state that these entities have evolved along side the human race throughout history and have sought to find ways to interact with us in order to assert social changes. He does not state the exact nature or what those social influences entail, but to many this theme carries some of the nuances of Abrahamic religions pertinent to demonic or satanic deception.

Hynek was very partial to this theory, while the Vallée side of the hypothesis was a bit more liberal in allowing some variation in the nature of the 'dimensional-being', albeit a strictly earth bound phenomenon.

I understand that it has been a source of frustration for Dr. Vallée that his theory has undergone such a morphing as to have evolved from a nondescript terrestrial intelligence into an ultra-dimensional extraterrestrial being, with many variations.

My decision to bring up this subtopic was based on years of seeing comments referring to the Hynek/Vallée terminology being applied to theorem outside of the original research. I also hold great respect for scientists who venture into the rabbit hole of para-science, though I don't necessarily agree with the conclusions.

Strong local control of gravitational fields would intrinsically cause very strange optical effects. IF ET has this, there must be some physics we don't know, and thus there could be other physical effects as a consequence. Humans have no intuition whatsoever about these. You could see things "warping" "merging" "bending" etc when in fact the physical items in their local frame are doing no such thing. There could be spontaneous emission of light as a consequence of the unknown-to-man physics as well.

In other words, things could look "weirder" and more "spacey/interdimensionally" as a purely physical, optical illusion.

reply to post by wtbengineer

So good to see you my friend! I was away for awile, but was gratified to see you around when I got back.

I dropped you a star somewhere, and meant to u2u. I'll have to do that. Hope all is well your way.

Thank you for stopping by, amigo.

reply to post by The GUT


ATS stopped accepting my password.
had to make a new account
the reason for the low post count.
here is my other profile.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
thanks for the link.
i'm sure i'll be awake tonight and give it a once over.

also to the member who sent me the U2U.
the system won't let me reply in a U2U for some reason.
keeps telling me i can only reply to messages from ATS mods?
maybe i don't have enough posts.
i'm not entirely sure.

Originally posted by g2v12
...I understand that it has been a source of frustration for Dr. Vallée that his theory has undergone such a morphing as to have evolved from a nondescript terrestrial intelligence into an ultra-dimensional extraterrestrial being, with many variations.

My decision to bring up this subtopic was based on years of seeing comments referring to the Hynek/Vallée terminology being applied to theorem outside of the original research. I also hold great respect for scientists who venture into the rabbit hole of para-science, though I don't necessarily agree with the conclusions.

Thank you for your well thought out and prolific contributions here, g2v12, but although I did use the term "Interdimensional" in my title, I also opened up the doors a little in the text of my opening post.

My readings of Dr. Vallee have left me with the impression that he doesn't "state" as much as theorize. He generally seems more humble than most when proffering a hypothesis.

If you could point out where Jacques has expressed "frustration" that his theory has undergone "morphing" I would appreciate it.

Maybe you missed Dr. Valle's interview in Sub Rosa circa 2006 that I posted the following excerpt from a few pages back?

SR: Astrobiologist David Grinspoon (in his book Lonely Planets) talked of the possibility that extraterrestrial civilisations far older than ours may have passed this 'singularity', and may have access to technologies beyond our imagining. Is this something that would fit into the Magonia hypothesis, in terms of interdimensional travel? Your writing would suggest not, that UFOs are related in some way to the human collective psyche, but I'd love to hear your thoughts.

JV: There is no contradiction between the two. The concept of other dimensions and parallel universes is part of mainstream cosmology now. I just received in the mail the latest copy of New Scientist. The cover shows two figures climbing into a flying saucer with the caption: “Life inside a black hole – how is it for you?”

Besides, I believe that the human collective psyche has access to cosmic consciousness, and I have to assume many of the readers of a magazine called Sub Rosa entertain similar thoughts!
www.dailygrail.com...

I have much respect for both Prof. Hynek and Dr. J, but for me personally they represent jumping off points rather than gospel.

Originally posted by mbkennel
Strong local control of gravitational fields would intrinsically cause very strange optical effects...

An excellent point and certainly to be considered, but it's not a game-changer for me personally. Starred, however, because it is an important consideration. Thanks.

Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by The GUT

 

Dear The GUT,

I see UFOs as inter-dimensional but demonic. Inter-dimensionality is psychic rather than physical. We cannot physically travel inter-dimensionally; but, we can experience altered states of consciousness. The last realm to be explored is that of consciousness. Nothing is an illusion, everything is a representation of a thought. The amount of thoughts that are possible is endless. The dimensions of the universe are merely the levels of awareness of it's inhabitants. I hope you found my answer amusing. Peace.

I don't think we're allowed to say "demon" or any variant of that word in the Alien/UFO forum.
Can't say "angels" either. I don't think.

But you for sure can't say "demon".
And you for sure as hell can't say "aliens are demons".
Don't even think about saying that or even imagining yourself thinking about saying it.

But to answer the OP's question:
I have, and did several years ago. First time I ever read one of Jacques Vallee's books was when the deal was sealed for me. "Messengers of Deception," and my conclusion seemed like a no-brainer at the time.

I have to agree that interdimensional travel would seem to be a quicker way of getting around. With that said if a society were advanced enough they could use that kind of travel, even if they were from this dimension. Speculation is fun though. It could be as simple as each us creating all this with our inner most desires. I guess I am still on the fence, so to speak.

Great question though Gut.

Originally posted by Erno86
reply to post by flashtrum

 

flashtrum --- Human beings...can overcome the physical problems of space travel, by the creation of artifical gravity on the starship. And what better shape than a flying saucer too create an artificial gravity? Obviously... the steady rotation of a disc shape will create centrifugal gravity. Which leads me to believe: That the living quarters on the saucer craft are located near the outer edges of the disc.

Psychological mental health problems --- are another story; indeed!!!

edit on 16-7-2012 by Erno86 because: spelling

edit on 16-7-2012 by Erno86 because: ditto

edit on 16-7-2012 by Erno86 because: ditto

And not being a scientist (but playing one on TV) I would think the whole gravity thing COULD be overcome. But what can't is the need to travel faster than the speed of light to get to these places. So yes, I could see us overcoming the physical problems of space travel, but the amount of time it would take, you would almost have to set up a society that understands they need to procreate and that their offspring would automatically have to do the same jobs as their parents whether they wanted to or not. Almost like being born into slavery.

That we can't overcome. This is why manipulation of space-time or uncovering the mysteries of other dimensions - to me- more likely holds the key to where these entities come from and how they are getting here.

reply to post by The GUT


There is probably no gospel regarding the UFO enigma. Anything goes and its a totally opened field for opinion and review.

As for my claim regarding Vallée's frustrations, I heard this statement during his interview in the context of a book he released in 2012, Wonders in the Sky, which he wrote in the context of historical events of UFOs and close contact cases. He did so without interjecting his opinion, allowing the reader to freely interpret. It may have been an interview with Vallée on Open Mind or Coast to Coast radio.

Now that I have had a chance to think about it, I suppose it isn't actually relevant to the spirit of discourse occurring in this forum.

reply to post by stupid girl


Dear stupid girl,

I am unaware of not being allowed to say "demonic" on these threads. Dr. Vallee himself said that the beings acted in a manner consistent with demonic possessions in the past and I am fairly sure that Dr. Vallee considered himself to be an agnostic. If we can allow people to say that aliens were our gods of past, why cant we say they were also our demons? Are we allowed to discuss the book "Chariots of the Gods"? The alternative is that we may say that aliens were our gods; but, even though they seem to cause people harm we cannot refer to them as demonic.

If you re-read my post, you will see that I did not get into a big religious discussion, I gave my answer and moved on. When people ask about alternate universes, we should ask what those "dimensions" might be and heaven, hell and the "spirit realm" in between all are possibilities. Which possibilities are required to ignore in these forums? Peace.

Originally posted by stupid girl

Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by The GUT

 

Dear The GUT,

I see UFOs as inter-dimensional but demonic. Inter-dimensionality is psychic rather than physical. We cannot physically travel inter-dimensionally; but, we can experience altered states of consciousness. The last realm to be explored is that of consciousness. Nothing is an illusion, everything is a representation of a thought. The amount of thoughts that are possible is endless. The dimensions of the universe are merely the levels of awareness of it's inhabitants. I hope you found my answer amusing. Peace.

I don't think we're allowed to say "demon" or any variant of that word in the Alien/UFO forum.
Can't say "angels" either. I don't think.

But you for sure can't say "demon".
And you for sure as hell can't say "aliens are demons".
Don't even think about saying that or even imagining yourself thinking about saying it.

But to answer the OP's question:
I have, and did several years ago. First time I ever read one of Jacques Vallee's books was when the deal was sealed for me. "Messengers of Deception," and my conclusion seemed like a no-brainer at the time.

One of the reasons I stayed away from the "official UFO field" in Britain after the late 70s was because it had been infiltrated by religious zealots, who not only sought to "demonise" the whole subject, they also sought to push a pretty far right political agenda on the back of it. Some people, I would call colleagues and friends fell prey to this "sickness" and several leading lights who were not "on message" felt the same and that their positions had become untenable within the field.

The truth is, the bottom line was that many involved in this movement were the sort of people who were arguing basically, "We know best, we are the elite" Lord Hill-Norton was one of their number and whilst I found his views of interest and he did undoubtedly put his own reputation on the line, as it were, behind it was his desperation to enforce and there can be no other word for it, his and his fellows morals and ideas on the population and Ufology was , for many, simply a means to an end.

I make no apologies for this however, in my universe I hold no truck with those who seek to characterise anyone who dosen't believe in their spiritual path as "evil" and somehow working for some "sinister cause and actually as a left hander myself I take umbrage at the adoption of the word sinister, meaning left handed, as a mark of this "evil".

Should anyone wish to delve a little deeper into the whole "politics" of the what I speak of then this link gives a good account of the sort of jiggery pokery that was going on. That's not to dismiss some of these people's work which was good however, beyond a certain date it was undoubtedly tainted with their increasing political extremism.

www.forteantimes.com...

reply to post by stupid girl

But to answer the OP's question: I have, and did several years ago. First time I ever read one of Jacques Vallee's books was when the deal was sealed for me. "Messengers of Deception," and my conclusion seemed like a no-brainer at the time.

Sista, what have we talked about ? Body slams like this, to the opposition, should be televised. I'm sure the WWF would be envious.

OP
What if we consider the mind another dimension ? That would give these entities access to both dimensions.

Originally posted by FireMoon
One of the reasons I stayed away from the "official UFO field" in Britain after the late 70s was because it had been infiltrated by religious zealots, who not only sought to "demonise" the whole subject, they also sought to push a pretty far right political agenda on the back of it. Some people, I would call colleagues and friends fell prey to this "sickness" and several leading lights who were not "on message" felt the same and that their positions had become untenable within the field.

The truth is, the bottom line was that many involved in this movement were the sort of people who were arguing basically, "We know best, we are the elite" Lord Hill-Norton was one of their number and whilst I found his views of interest and he did undoubtedly put his own reputation on the line, as it were, behind it was his desperation to enforce and there can be no other word for it, his and his fellows morals and ideas on the population and Ufology was , for many, simply a means to an end.

I make no apologies for this however, in my universe I hold no truck with those who seek to characterise anyone who dosen't believe in their spiritual path as "evil" and somehow working for some "sinister cause and actually as a left hander myself I take umbrage at the adoption of the word sinister, meaning left handed, as a mark of this "evil".

Should anyone wish to delve a little deeper into the whole "politics" of the what I speak of then this link gives a good account of the sort of jiggery pokery that was going on. That's not to dismiss some of these people's work which was good however, beyond a certain date it was undoubtedly tainted with their increasing political extremism.

www.forteantimes.com...

edit on 16-7-2012 by FireMoon because: spelling

1. Your avatar totally made me LOL. I am actually still giggling a little while I type this.

2. So, you're mad about religious turds gettin' all up in the UFO business. Is that what you are saying? Your reply was a tad difficult for me to follow. I kinda feel like I need to type my response with an English accent and ask you if you'd like some more tea.

3. You said "jiggery" and "pokery". I don't know the protocol on those words in the Aliens & UFO forum, but I must say that I think that those are now my two new favorite words. But I kinda feel naughty when I say them, so I probably won't say them around my kids.

4. The link you posted is interesting and I will actually invest some of my precious little free time to read it. However, it will not be tonight as I am tired and going to bed at the moment. And there won't be any jiggery or pokery going on either 'cuz I is a sleepy stupid girl.

reply to post by FireMoon

I LOVE that article, FireMoon. Sure Dr. Clarke "cocked an eye" at them, but it also seems the concept gave him pause for reflection.

Lord Hill-Norton, Creighton, Stanway, etc. were all men of intellect and honor who knew the ufological world extremely well and whom, imho, followed their minds and hearts and went where they felt the evidence led them personally.

Like you. Like me. Like everyone else here.

Excerpt from your linked article:

We can now appreciate why the demonic theory has retained its popularity for so long and why it appears to be the only answer that makes sense to many people. Quite simply, as Gareth Medway has recognised, [the] demonic theories have an advantage over all other ufological hypotheses. Many people want an answer to the mystery that leaves no ambiguities, and no residue of unexplained cases. Those who seek to explain UFOs as weather balloons, mirages, ball lightning, ‘earth lights’ or ET craft can make their case only by distorting or ignoring evidence that does not fit – or by suppressing it.

An American Orthodox priest, Fr Thomas Kulp, summarised the superiority of the demonic theory over all others in this way: "If we are being visited by extraterrestrials, no unified and coherent hypothesis has yet been offered to explain the multifarious worldwide motifs of alien contact… There is not a single UFO incident on record that cannot be explained as a demonic deception or apparition."

www.forteantimes.com...

We should all be men & women of conviction and follow the evidence where it personally leads us as well. Right? Righto, Mate!

Inter dimensional? I don't think so. I believe they are from the same dimension we are and my reasoning is this: If they are from another dimension then they wouldn't be 3 dimensional creatures at all. In fact I don't think we'd be able to even perceive them if they were from another dimension. However, I would not be surprised if they were inter-universal (that isnt a word you read often is it ha ha.) Perhaps from a universe that is similar to ours, but maybe different enough for them to be able to bend our laws of physics to their will.

Originally posted by greenie65
...However, I would not be surprised if they were inter-universal (that isnt a word you read often is it ha ha.) Perhaps from a universe that is similar to ours, but maybe different enough for them to be able to bend our laws of physics to their will.

I have to admit that that is a pretty original and witty idea, greenie! I still ain't buyin' it, but it did make me think...Hard! Ouch.

I think either are possible. I'm not sure that exclusively ruling out either one makes sense.

reply to post by The GUT


ufos.about.com... .....an interesting read and to some extent , it was this perceived "neutrality and refusal to take sides" that led many of the older cadre of Ufologists up the "religious zealot path". The reasoning seemingly being that, if they won;t bat for us then, they must be jolly bad fellows I knew Rex well and the background to that tape is a fascinating one. Whilst Rex was calmly chatting away to the "character", the studio was in uproar as every line into the phone in was blocked and they couldn't cut the voice off as the producer was desperate to do. It was only because Rex had connections that he managed to squirrel away a cop ,on tape of the conversation via a "friendly" LBC engineer.

The truth is, Rex and his fellow "believers" were not just any old people in the eyes of the establishment, they were more often than not, college educated and from the professions, lawyers, doctors the like. There was a deep seated fear that these people could actually affect some degree of social change that was far more, "inclusive" of other's opinions about religion , politics and life in general. Whilst Rex and his band were of the, well we're only humans, it's a vast universe and how can we expect to understand it all, others were more of the thought that. These wallahs won't play ball and we're British, how dare they?: they must be baddies. The evangelists were only too happy to move in and play Iago, whispering dark conspiracies into their ears