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Do western people have the right to complain about Muslim people settling in their countries?

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posted on Jul, 15 2012 @ 02:47 PM
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Originally posted by grandmakdw
reply to post by justwokeup
 

Originally posted by justwokeup
Race is a matter of genetics, not culture.

Criticising cultural or religious practices is not racism. Those things have nothing to do with race and are a matter of personal conviction, where Race is not.

Thats why criticising race is unjust but debating the rights/wrongs of particular behaviour is not.

The future of human society is at stake, its a battle of ideas not race. The 'race card' is a deliberate misdirection to make people fearful of engaging in debate.




You are wrong. Race is a purely cultural construct. All humans descended from the same original species (people). They then proceeded to move about the continents. The tribes then interbred in relative isolation for hundreds or thousands of years. Thus creating "races".
Black or dark skin children tended to die of a lack of vitamin D, and so the people of the cold climates became fair skinned. Light skinned children tended to die of sunburn, and so the people of the hot climates had darker skin. People in lovely tropical climates survived best with a skin that tanned but allowed in sunlight. And so forth on all so called racial characteristics. Sort of like dog breeds, with a chihuahua being one race, and a great dane another race, yet they are both of the same species and can interbreed.

Therefore, race is purely a social construct, and what social group one chooses to belong to. Today in every "race" there are lighter and darker skinned people, people with wide and narrow noses, people with wide and narrow lips etc. Race is not genetic at all, but a result of the social group your ancestors belonged to for many generations.

Actually, racism is culturalism and vice versa. However, if you belong to one social group and decide to move to another social group - one should adapt to the prevailing cultural norms of the new social group. Insist the new social group has to change to the customs of your social group is rude and arrogant. It is the same thing "white" people did in the past that was so highly criticized by people of color. Now people of color are doing the very same thing to "white" people.


I believe you kind of made my point, although i don't think you intended to.

I was not suggesting that we were not all the same species....

As you say, localised adaptation through natural selection introduced the differences. The differences are determinable at the genetic level. You can if you wish through genetics trace the geographic ancestry of a person and the degree of ancestry from each region. Such analyses can pinpoint the migrational history of a person's ancestors with a high degree of accuracy.

Racism is the belief that one specialised group of humans is better or worse than another, and slander/discrimination on that basis.

To say that argument against a particular cultural or religious 'idea' is also racism is surely absurd. Ideas are adopted they are not intrinsic to the makeup of a person.




posted on Jul, 15 2012 @ 02:53 PM
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reply to post by grandmakdw
 

Yes, this is true, and a considerable white British/European Muslim population already exists.
It's often said that converts to anything tend to be more hardcore in what they adopt than those born into a culture or faith, so these are often the people one finds in the more radical Islamic videos (I get a few on my Youtube list from Germany every day for some reason).

It's also a point that could work either way: if culture is not ingrained in race, then immigrants have no reason not to adopt the culture of their new country; or vice-versa it could mean that the hosts should adapt to their new immigrants.
But clearly it's not that simple either way.

However, cultural constructs should not be taken lightly.
Just because something can be exposed as a cultural construct doesn't mean it is not very ingrained or easily changeable.
People use terms like "cultural construct" as lightly as they use "scientific theory" these days.
Science will not abandon an entire theory because of minor gaps or anomalies, or pseudo-scientific counter-theories.
Similarly, group identities will not simply abandon culture, or their view of themselves and others, because it is a construct and there are other alternative constructs.
Usually they will find reasons to justify their construct as superior, and the others as inferior.


edit on 15-7-2012 by halfoldman because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 15 2012 @ 02:55 PM
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Originally posted by Pinke
I've tried to read the whole thread, but don't really have time for all the history arguments.

All I'm going to say is that this stuff runs both ways ...

I have a number of friends from the middle east who struggle to fit in at times and its not because they're not trying. People make really upsetting assumptions based on a person having a strong accent. Is quite sad really.



I have ZERO, NOTHING, against those who try to fit in and I actually don't mind going out of my way to making it easier for them....because they are trying. These are the individuals we need to welcome, not ones who come in and want to change our country into their old one.



posted on Jul, 15 2012 @ 03:06 PM
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All i can say...is when one immigrate they should adapt to the country they have moved to....just as if a westerner moves to a muslim country they have to conform or else.....that is what annoys me .....when in rome....that is the way it should be....Pees me off when people move to a foriegn country and demand rights that the locals do not demand them selves.....I remember when the RCMP in canada did not want officers to wear turbans....IT is not part of the uniform...but oh no...some how that was against their rights...well sorry but take a hike....It is a uniform of the job...if you don't want to wear the uniform...then don't take the job....but People caved in...the fools.



posted on Jul, 15 2012 @ 03:31 PM
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It has been aptly noted that the Bitish Isles have been previously invaded by other cultures. The inhabitants lost out because they were not strong enough to repel the invasion.
You are faced with the same thing today.
You are complaining. And you are foolish enough to ask if you have a "right" to complain.
You should not only be complaining, you should be acting to repel the invasion.
Failing that, you will be extinct in due time, just as your prececessors were.

All of Europe and all of North America previously had immigration laws that prevented this from happening.
In the US it was 1965 that those immigraiton laws were changed.
Why exactly did this happen?
Your government as well as others have some over-riding evil power forcing them to do this to you (and to themselves)
What is it that drives them to commit cultural and racial suicide?



posted on Jul, 15 2012 @ 03:44 PM
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Not just western people, citizens of every country have a right to complain about settlers if they want to, and regulate their influx as they see fit.

This right is especially important in developed countries with a democracy and a big social system, because foreign settlers, unless regulated, can use democracy to change the country to their preference and social system to steal its resources.



posted on Jul, 15 2012 @ 03:59 PM
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reply to post by Maslo
 

Not just that, but they also bring their troubles with them.

In SA, apart from the brutal xenophobia from locals (see previous page), we also have allegations that Muslim extremist group Al Shabaab have assassinated 14 Ethiopian Christians in our country!
www.persecution.org...

And there's been long-standing allegations that the Zimbabwean secret police are operating in SA (seemingly with the blessings of their friends in the ANC) and may even be responsible for some attacks on Zimbabwean dissidents in SA that were later classed as "xenophobia".

Once they start instigating things like these, and bring over their violent political issues, it's understandable that the locals can get fed-up.



posted on Jul, 15 2012 @ 04:06 PM
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Multiculturalism is supposed to be about sharing; people of different cultures (and religions) mixing for the benefit and enrichment of all.

Why then are ethnic/religious ghettos allowed to persist? They represent the exact opposite of "multiculturalism".

How long do you think a town of white British or white American would last in Pakistan? My guess? It would never happen in the first place. The Pakistani's wouldn't allow it. And they'd be right.



posted on Jul, 15 2012 @ 04:06 PM
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So essentially what you are saying is that they deserve it because of what they have done in the past and they should just shut up and take it?


I'm in the US and I'm no fan of the english by any means. I look at my own countries past and am disgusted by our english ancestors. Personally my family is Irish/Scottish/Apache indian, but I'm sure somewhere in there is muddled up mutt that has some English ties to it. They went into countries and basically just came on in and took it because they had superiority complexes and thought it was theirs to take. I don't believe a lot of our history because I'm smart enough to know it was written by the victors.. which in the US's case, were not our founding fathers originally english? They come in, wipe out the native peoples, clear the land and claim it as their own. I have a friend who is from England and now a US citizen and I admit her ways piss me off. Her arrogant attitude set a impression of people from England. First thing she did was buy a house and cut down about 10 trees because 'well in England trees damage foundations so we don't have them". HELLO.. your in America and in Colorado to boot. The trees here are deep rooted and do not damage foundations for the most part, with the exception of aspen and willow trees. She is away in England now, I'm not about to email her to tell her that there are aspen growing at her foundation!


Sorry, I digress, I guess in a way I can see your point and agree to some extent. Maybe they are getting a taste of their own medicine. Maybe it is the same for the US, although the native american's are neatly tucked away in their little hell hole of a piece of lands that the US govt so graciously gave them . Although they are not coming in from another country and trying to take over, they are still here. Or Mexico might be a better example, did we not take some of their land? I don't know how many countries England forced their way into and essentially claimed it as their own so I can't speak to that. So many have a superiority complex and they think 'this is allll mine.. i deserve it", but do they really? Almost all land at one point or another was taken by someone else.



posted on Jul, 15 2012 @ 04:17 PM
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Originally posted by g146541



Muslims should have the same right as jews and christians


.Um, they DO have the same rights as "Christians and Jews"


In fact, muslims kill much less than jews or christians.


Kill much less what?, exactly?, because, you don't tend to see christians "Honour Killing" their wives and daughters.


Or did you mean to question brown men, then I still got bad news for you...
Ignore the media, you will become enlightened.


I don't need the media to tell me what i have seen living within a muslim area for 5 years whilst i was in leicester.
In fact, why don't you enlighten yourself to the rabid intolerances of muslim culture by walking through an estate in leicester called "St mathews", im sure the radicalised youth there who are predominantly somalian (first generation), would welcome you with open arms as a brother.
try it.
And i bet you don't know anything of the gang of muslim men recently imprisoned in liverpool for sexually assaulting and raping a large number of girls under the age of 16.
They regard white women as "Trash" literally, and god put them there for them to be used and abused, white girls have no "Religious" protections from their predations, in fact it is entirely the opposite, they are told by the koran to behave as such towards them.
A lot of muslim men seem to think that all women outside of their religion are an entitlement, especially young white ones.


You don't seem particularly well educated on the machinations of Islamic fundamentalism being inserted deliberately into our communities, and of the impact it is having, and it is very much affecting the British way of life in some places.

Also, the muslims tend to marry as soon as possible and start having kids, around 5 per family is the norm, i can guarantee within 25 years we will be looking at having a muslim government in the UK.

This is being allowed to happen, a game of brinkmanship is being played out in the UK by the government, they have every notion of what is going to transpire.
Enoch powells speech is looking extremely prescient.



posted on Jul, 15 2012 @ 05:51 PM
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Reading through this thread
I really think there is a connection between racism, religion and IQ.



posted on Jul, 15 2012 @ 06:17 PM
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Originally posted by Bixxi3
Reading through this thread
I really think there is a connection between racism, religion and IQ.



Personally i would say there is a connection between, Religion, Intolerance, and indifference to anything but your own holy book.
Racism has nothing to do with religion, but, well done for bringing it up, here have a star *

Why is it impossible to have a discussion about non indigenous religions, or, their peoples without someone saying in a smarmy way "o but thats racist".
No it isn't racist, and you have expressed a perfect example of conditioning.



posted on Jul, 15 2012 @ 06:19 PM
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As long as they come here and get a good education/job and pay taxes i have no problems. but if they come here and intend to live off of welfare then the need to gtfo



posted on Jul, 15 2012 @ 06:25 PM
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Originally posted by plube
All i can say...is when one immigrate they should adapt to the country they have moved to....just as if a westerner moves to a muslim country they have to conform or else.....that is what annoys me .....when in rome....that is the way it should be....Pees me off when people move to a foriegn country and demand rights that the locals do not demand them selves.....I remember when the RCMP in canada did not want officers to wear turbans....IT is not part of the uniform...but oh no...some how that was against their rights...well sorry but take a hike....It is a uniform of the job...if you don't want to wear the uniform...then don't take the job....but People caved in...the fools.


The Koran states that if the muslims go to a foreign land, that they are to abide by the laws and customs there.
However, Muslims seem to take the parts that suit their needs, and, dismiss the rest.
I will never forget the day whilst in a homeless shelter in leicester and one of the support workers was attempting to convert me, one of the things he said was "science is wrong, and it is about to be proven that the sun goes around the earth, muslim scientists can prove it".
Absolutely what he said, i couldn't wait to get away after that, i do not see the point in engaging with someone who is so fundamental in their views, they can dismiss KNOWN factual reality in defence of their religion.
Talking with some of the people (he was a wahabbi) will not be an option, they are not interested.



posted on Jul, 15 2012 @ 07:50 PM
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reply to post by cllj7
 


Yes they do have a right to complain, why?

Because Muslims have already tried this before where they invaded Christendom and took over large amounts of Europe, well before the age of colonization. So did those people have a right to fight them off?

Of course they did and it was called the Crusades.

The only difference today is that we use guns instead of swords. Islam still has the same goal and that is to dominate Europe.


In my country of Australia muslims are now enforcing sharia in certain areas, and sending death threats to our fallen soldiers families. Are Australians allowed to say no to the Islamization of Australia?
We never colonized another country, your thread is hypocritical and anti-Western/anti-white.



posted on Jul, 15 2012 @ 07:55 PM
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reply to post by cllj7
 


Well...it's our God given right to complain about anything we want to...but there really isn't much to do but complain about it. I mean this has to be a rhetorical question, right...I mean everyone has the right to complain about anything as long as someone is listening...even if no action is made.



posted on Jul, 15 2012 @ 08:02 PM
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Originally posted by plube
All i can say...is when one immigrate they should adapt to the country they have moved to....just as if a westerner moves to a muslim country they have to conform or else.....that is what annoys me .....when in rome....that is the way it should be....Pees me off when people move to a foriegn country and demand rights that the locals do not demand them selves.....I remember when the RCMP in canada did not want officers to wear turbans....IT is not part of the uniform...but oh no...some how that was against their rights...well sorry but take a hike....It is a uniform of the job...if you don't want to wear the uniform...then don't take the job....but People caved in...the fools.


If a cat is born in a stable does that make it a horse? Of course not, now lets try the same question but in a different context.

If a white man is born in China does that make him a Chinamen? Of course not.

What you are advocating is racial and cultural genocide of the white race, you are racist!!



posted on Jul, 15 2012 @ 08:45 PM
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Part of having a free society is freedom of speech. Of course people have the right to complain. Here in the U.S., we have lots of land, so wacky people who don' t like being around other folks tend to run off and form their own communities. We all, however, are subject to the same laws. So whether it's Amish, white supremacists, black supremacists, hasidic jews, radical muslims, etc...anyone that feels like they can go around threatening or intimidating other will be subject to the law. Same with those who use violence.



posted on Jul, 15 2012 @ 08:56 PM
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Originally posted by MidnightTide
I have nothing against Muslims, nothing really against their religion either.

If you move to a different culture, try to assimilate to that culture. Speak the language and be respectful of our laws - that is all we ask. When you refuse to do so, or try to actively go against that culture, don't be shocked when people tend to hate your guts.


Our culture is fluid. We would not fit into 1800's American culture (or even 50 years ago for that matter). To say the US has a static culture is short-sighted. As I always say "America is as America does".

There are no guidelines to our culture nor should there ever be.



posted on Jul, 15 2012 @ 09:40 PM
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Originally posted by CrimsonKapital

Originally posted by plube
All i can say...is when one immigrate they should adapt to the country they have moved to....just as if a westerner moves to a muslim country they have to conform or else.....that is what annoys me .....when in rome....that is the way it should be....Pees me off when people move to a foriegn country and demand rights that the locals do not demand them selves.....I remember when the RCMP in canada did not want officers to wear turbans....IT is not part of the uniform...but oh no...some how that was against their rights...well sorry but take a hike....It is a uniform of the job...if you don't want to wear the uniform...then don't take the job....but People caved in...the fools.


If a cat is born in a stable does that make it a horse? Of course not, now lets try the same question but in a different context.

If a white man is born in China does that make him a Chinamen? Of course not.

What you are advocating is racial and cultural genocide of the white race, you are racist!!


Actually, yes it would in law, In whatever country you are born, you are entitled to a passport, and, citizenship.
If an englishman born in china chose to remain there with chinese citizenship, he is not english, he is chinese, of english descent.

Does it make him an asiatic?, no it does not, by the chinese he would be regarded as yang ren (from across the sea even though he was born there).
Would he live by chinese laws and customs?, yes he would, for one the chinese would never allow a religion or race to implement there own laws, and, dictats.
There are Muslims in china, they live by chinese law and are happy to not want to alienate the rest of the population.
Would they if they had more freedom of religion and expression, well, you would have to look at the koran and what it says, and then it would come down to wether or not the whole koranic law would be adhered to, or, if they will pick and choose the bits they like and disregard those they don't like, as seems to be happening in the UK.



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