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Eternal Torment In Hell

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posted on Aug, 5 2012 @ 11:52 AM
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reply to post by Lazarus Short
 


You're ignoring the Sheep and Goats judgment, and the Great White Throne judgment where the condemned are thrown into the lake of fire. Jesus taught more about eternal judgment more than about Heaven. He said more would be on the wide path to destruction than the narrow path to eternal life. He never taught that all men would be saved.




posted on Aug, 5 2012 @ 04:10 PM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


I can read that story as reincarnation as well.

After the rich man dies he is reincarnated onto another planet similar to Earth where the rich oppress the poor through money. Lazarus and the rich man switch places after death, meaning Lazarus is now rich and the rich man is now poor.

Lazarus is now the rich and corrupt, and he is at the bosom of Abraham, meaning all Abrahamic religions nurse the rich and put them where they are, which means they are only in it for the money.

The gulf that Abraham speaks of is that of money and power. Funny how Abraham is the central figure while in Hades. Could that mean that Hades is much like Earth? Could this story mean Earth is the hell the bible speaks of? I think so, and in my opinion this story proves it.



posted on Aug, 5 2012 @ 09:43 PM
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reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
 


Very, VERY, interesting perspective... never heard of this before...

So when the rich rules the poor (badly), they will be reincarnated here - which is hell - and switch places so that the rich can now be the poor and the poor can now be rich in this life, and THEY can be treated badly? And this is why Abrahamic Religions are popular because it is all about THE MONEY (The Rich Ruling)?

It makes sense in a way.... I guess...

Meh, practically speaking we should believe in Free-Will (Freedom) because this is what is dominant in reality, to go against it is to go against nature (In a HUGE way).



posted on Aug, 5 2012 @ 10:22 PM
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reply to post by arpgme
 


I'm not saying that's what happens all the time, you could be reincarnated as someone poor many times in a row, the same with the rich. It could imply the Buddhist perspective of karma and dharma, but I'm not saying one way or the other.

Lazarus doesn't just represent one man, he represents the poor as a whole, the same with the rich man, he represents the rich as a whole. Abraham could represent money, because money is the thing that nurtures the rich and keeps them in power, and Lazarus being at Abrahams bosom represents Lazarus relying on money (Abraham) in order to stay in the position that he is in.

Abraham represents the three major religions on Earth: Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. Since Abraham is the central figure while in Hades, that could mean he represents Satan, or the ruler of hell on Earth.

ETA: I'm not sure I know what you mean by going against free-will, I didn't mention anything to do with free-will.
edit on 5-8-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

edit on 5-8-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 7 2012 @ 08:51 AM
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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

You interpreted this wrong. He never intended for anyone to sacrifice their children to Moloch, he never told them to do it. They were burning their children alive for prosperity and wealth, because that is what Molech worship is and they were doing it of their own cognizance chasing after Idols again. Chapter 32 he reveals his punishment for them chasing after idols, which was another exile from the land he gave them because they refused to listen to him. It's not my doctrine that is flawed, because i stick with what is written. You base your doctrine off of one verse when other chapters contradict you and you're decieving yourself. If even one chapter speaks about eternal torment where they shall recieve no rest, then it contradicts your doctrine and your doctrine is false and that means you're preaching doctrines of devils.


Lonewolf, as I have said many times in various ATS threads, there are three main schools of thought on the fate of sinners:

Eternal Torment (ET) - usually held by people whose emphasis is the justice of God

Eternal Destruction (ED) - usually held by people whose emphasis is the mercy of God

Universal Reconciliation (UR) - usually held by people whose emphasis is the love of God

The Bible seems to teach each position, at least, each camp can pull out sufficient evidence to prove their position, that is, if other texts are not brought into the discussion. You state that even one chapter will invalidate my position, but the Bible you claim to believe states you need two witnesses. Are you proposing to establish a doctrine on a single text? UR is based on many texts, many more than the other two camps. What if I stated that a single text or chapter would invalidate your position? Would you not reject such a stance? Yet, you insist on having the high ground on an uneven playing field. You say I teach the doctrines of Devils, yet Christianity used to teach UR.

I note that many are turned away from God by the Hellfire & Damnation message in our present time, while early Christianity spread quickly over the world in response to the original Gospel of Salvation.

Please think this through: Is the blood of Jesus not enough? Is not the whole message of the Gospel that God has held back His justice for the sake of the sacrifice of His Son? The message of Eternal Torment is that God does not love us. The message of Eternal Destruction is that God does not really care for us. Only Universal Reconciliation (do not confuse that with the doctrines of Unitarian Universalism) demonstrates clearly that God loves us, and that is what it is all about.
edit on 7-8-2012 by Lazarus Short because: lah-de-dah



posted on Aug, 7 2012 @ 10:15 AM
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reply to post by Lazarus Short
 



Eternal Torment (ET) - usually held by people whose emphasis is the justice of God

Eternal Destruction (ED) - usually held by people whose emphasis is the mercy of God

Universal Reconciliation (UR) - usually held by people whose emphasis is the love of God


I'm not accusing you of preaching doctrines of devils. I am saying you're misinterpreting what you have read. There were never 3 camps of thought, there was only one. The second death is being cutoff from Yah's light for eternity, it is eternal torment. The book says very clearly that some will be resurrected to everlasting life, and some will be resurrected to eternal damnation. If you're resurrected to eternal damnation you are still given a body of an angel that will not die. The eternal torment is being shutoff from Yah's light for eternity, the anguish and the pain and the lonliness neverending. Those reconciled to Yah will not be cut off and that is their reward. If you don't believe me take it from Jesus:


The Parable of the Tares Explained (Parable of the Wheat and the Tares)
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”

37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

What Jesus is preaching is not Universal Reconciliation. The end of the Age is the end of his Millenial Reign when Heylel and all those who followed him will be thrown into Gehenna (lake of fire). He is speaking about the time after the second covenant has been established, and this blows UR into pieces



posted on Aug, 7 2012 @ 10:32 AM
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reply to post by Lazarus Short
 


Did Jesus not say He would deny those who denied Him?



posted on Aug, 7 2012 @ 11:44 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Well, excatly. Why do we make this such a big deal? (Don't get me wrong, I don't want any to perish, any more than God.) If you don't believe, you will get to not have to be with the thing you don't believe in. Why does that emotionally hurt people so much, to the point where they even have to comment on it? Frankly, those who continue to complain about Him carry Christ on their shoulders more than His followers do.



posted on Aug, 7 2012 @ 12:49 PM
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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by Lazarus Short
 



Eternal Torment (ET) - usually held by people whose emphasis is the justice of God

Eternal Destruction (ED) - usually held by people whose emphasis is the mercy of God

Universal Reconciliation (UR) - usually held by people whose emphasis is the love of God


There were never 3 camps of thought, there was only one.


There are certainly three camps of thought, and you just quoted them. ET is often found among Catholics and Baptists, ED is an official position of the SDA church (I know, I used to be one), and UR is found among some Christians, of many denominations. Where did you get the "only one" idea?

As far as wheat and tares, since one is of God, and one is of the devil, and sown as such, it is just possible that tares are not "us." That is to say, they look like humankind, but are not humankind. A study of tares, and the plant it represents, the darnel, should enlighten you. I think the parable hints at this, but I don't care to try to establish doctrine on only a parable, which is more for purposes of illustration. The wheat and tares concept could lead us down the garden path to the Seedline doctrine, but I don't care to go there...



posted on Aug, 7 2012 @ 02:44 PM
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reply to post by Lazarus Short
 



As far as wheat and tares, since one is of God, and one is of the devil, and sown as such, it is just possible that tares are not "us." That is to say, they look like humankind, but are not humankind. A study of tares, and the plant it represents, the darnel, should enlighten you. I think the parable hints at this, but I don't care to try to establish doctrine on only a parable, which is more for purposes of illustration. The wheat and tares concept could lead us down the garden path to the Seedline doctrine, but I don't care to go there..


You're just going to keep trying to dance around the fact using faulty logic. The parable of the wheat and the tares is a spiritual application not a phyisical one. What i supplied was the answer to the parable Jesus told the disciples when they asked him what it meant. If you're not willing to take it from him, then i cannot help you. We're clearly not going to change one or the either's minds and i'm not going to continue to whip a dead horse.



posted on Aug, 8 2012 @ 08:14 AM
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Regarding the sheep and goat judgement, as far as we know, they could be made up entirely of God's servants who either did or did not do anything with their "five talents" as outlined previously in Matthew 25. This is also why it talks about people who claim to know Jesus, but Jesus says he never knew them. Maybe it's all about the "profitable" servant versus the "unprofitable" servant.


Matthew 25:30

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Then the last verse of Matthew 25 says:

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Than again, we see the judgement of works through fire as well.

So if we look at these verses in 1 Corinthians 3, will these unprofitable servants be forgiven?

1 Corinthians 3:13-15

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Any additional insight on these verses and parables is most appreciated.



posted on Aug, 8 2012 @ 09:49 AM
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Originally posted by Deetermined
Regarding the sheep and goat judgement, as far as we know, they could be made up entirely of God's servants who either did or did not do anything with their "five talents" as outlined previously in Matthew 25. This is also why it talks about people who claim to know Jesus, but Jesus says he never knew them. Maybe it's all about the "profitable" servant versus the "unprofitable" servant.


Matthew 25:30

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Then the last verse of Matthew 25 says:

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Than again, we see the judgement of works through fire as well.

So if we look at these verses in 1 Corinthians 3, will these unprofitable servants be forgiven?

1 Corinthians 3:13-15

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Any additional insight on these verses and parables is most appreciated.


The unprofitable servant is only thrown into "outer darkness," with no mention of hell or hellfire. Their punishment is "everlasting," which would be better rendered as "age-long," versus the eternal rewards. It's a long punishment, but not forever. As far as fire, we see that works not acceptable to God will be burned up, but note carefully that the workers of these works SHALL BE SAVED. What could be plainer?

More:

Colossians 1:15-20
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the pre-eminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile (apokatallasso) all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

ALL THINGS - no exceptions. Note, things on earth and things in heaven are mentioned, but not things in "hell," just maybe because it does not exist??? Jesus came here and died, not just for the righteous, not just for sinners, but for (and to reconcile to Himself and the Father) the entire created cosmos.

Heaven, yes
Hell, no!



posted on Aug, 8 2012 @ 09:55 AM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


Well, I was just throwing out an idea. I have wrestled with the wheat vs tares idea for a long time, looking at the problem from one angle and then another. Yes, you are correct, the application must be spiritual, and a UR interpretation also excludes the tares as being a separate sort of people (seed of the Devil), and anyway it gets scarily close to seedline theology, which is very dangerous theo-illogical territory.



posted on Aug, 11 2012 @ 02:18 PM
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Well if you believe in a Heaven which is Eternal and a place of peace and joy for the righteous who believe and follow jesus, then there must be an opposite which is hell or whatever(lake of fire) and also eternal and for the unrighteous and is not a pleasant place to be.

how can fire affect a spirit?

This fire must be supernatural which can affect a spirit in a very unpleasant way.



posted on Aug, 11 2012 @ 08:48 PM
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Originally posted by rcane12
Well if you believe in a Heaven which is Eternal and a place of peace and joy for the righteous who believe and follow jesus, then there must be an opposite which is hell or whatever(lake of fire) and also eternal and for the unrighteous and is not a pleasant place to be.

how can fire affect a spirit?

This fire must be supernatural which can affect a spirit in a very unpleasant way.


Just how do you know your dualistic thinking is correct?
2nd



posted on Aug, 12 2012 @ 10:55 PM
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reply to post by Lazarus Short
 


Honestly I'm not even sure this is correct, eternal torment in hell is taught by my church which is oneness Pentecostalism ( Nontrinitarianism).



posted on Aug, 13 2012 @ 07:54 AM
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Originally posted by rcane12
reply to post by Lazarus Short
 


Honestly I'm not even sure this is correct, eternal torment in hell is taught by my church which is oneness Pentecostalism ( Nontrinitarianism).



Interesting, I'm not really a trinitarian myself. As for hell, consider that it mostly means "the grave," and that death and hell are to be thrown into the lake of fire. We have to assume they are thus destroyed, as the Bible also states that death is the last enemy to be overcome. How can anyone be dead and in hell after that happens?

The concept of eternal torment in hell also is inconsistent with the character of God, turns people away from God, and elevates Satan to equality with God. You know, Satan gets Hell, God gets Heaven, co-equals, each in his own realm. However, God will be All in All, so Satan will be the "odd man out."

Heaven, yes.

Hell, no!



posted on Aug, 13 2012 @ 09:45 PM
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Originally posted by Lazarus Short

Originally posted by rcane12
reply to post by Lazarus Short
 


Honestly I'm not even sure this is correct, eternal torment in hell is taught by my church which is oneness Pentecostalism ( Nontrinitarianism).



The concept of eternal torment in hell also is inconsistent with the character of God, turns people away from God, and elevates Satan to equality with God. You know, Satan gets Hell, God gets Heaven, co-equals each in his own realm. However, God will be All in All, so Satan will be the "odd man out."




This does make sense in the original context and scripture (Hebrew) "HaSatan" means "The Satan" or "The adversary" which is a title and not a name is a prosecuting attorney to test mankind and is an angel of God( no fallen angel) and has no authority of himself. Satan must consult with God and must get permission to do any thing. There is strong evidence of that in the book of Job, where satan had to get permission from God to test Job.The very thought that there is a God in heaven above who will fight against a satan of the underworld, or hell,and have some power and authority to even decide to want to rival God comes too close to Polytheism and pagan faith of the Romans and Greeks. Revelations then start to play out as God Vs. Demigod(Satan). This wouldn't be True and Pure Monotheism.

There is only one True God. Only God has True Authority.




Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:





Psalm 135:6 Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.





Deuteronomy 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;





Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.



posted on Aug, 14 2012 @ 10:55 AM
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reply to post by rcane12
 


I agree with you completely, but I was stating things as they (so it seems to me) exist in popular concepts of Hell and the Devil. People grant Hell too much reality and Satan too much authority.

Of course, you realise that the last two scriptures you quoted state clearly that evil comes from God, a concept which will not set well with most Christians. There are many other scriptures indicating so.




edit on 14-8-2012 by Lazarus Short because: lah-de-dah



posted on Jan, 2 2013 @ 01:56 AM
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Originally posted by jhill76

Originally posted by RightInTwo
It does say that people go to hell.




Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


No one is debating if you go to hell or not. I was posting, if you don't burn in hell, what actually happens? I should have worded it different.


Actually, someone is stating that people don't go to hell. You, in another thread you authored:

your thread

Consistency matter, you know.

So, which is it? Do you claim that people can't go to Hell at all, as you did in that other thread, or do you claim that the can go, and simply are not tormented? Neither position, of course, is Biblical.

If you can't agree with yourself, why should anyone believe anything you post?



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