Eternal Torment In Hell

Originally posted by swoopaloop
reply to post by Lazarus Short

 

lmao God didn't fail to meet my expectations. I'm agnostic. Any expectation I have of god is like an Ant having some sort of expectation of the internet.

edit on 29-7-2012 by swoopaloop because: (no reason given)

I used to be an atheist, but God met my expectations. At least you have an idea of your status in relation to Him. Don't be a tare, dude, read the Bible some more - eternal life, and its free - wot a deal!

reply to post by article

That may be so, but when I had my own NDE, I didn't see it, and my Grandpa was about as far from Christianity as he could be, and he was not there either. What I am saying is this, simply: If you wish to believe in such a place, be my guest. I choose not to believe.

reply to post by Lazarus Short


No I'm not going to read the bible.

I believe in Eternal life. I don't believe that I have to read the bible and follow it in order to access this eternal life.

1 Corinthians 15:22-23

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

23 But each one in his own order.

In Adam, all people are born into this world, and after a period of time they die; physical birth is followed later by physical death. However, in Christ, the order in which birth and death occurs is reversed. In Christ, there is first spiritual death of the ‘old man’, which is immediately followed by spiritual birth of the ‘new man’. Since the same all people who are born in Adam will be made alive in Christ, this means that all people without any exceptions will go through spiritual death followed by spiritual birth, but each one in his own order, as stated in the scripture above.

Romans 6:5-6

5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,

6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

www.godsplanforall.com...

Originally posted by Deetermined

1 Corinthians 15:22-23

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

23 But each one in his own order.

In Adam, all people are born into this world, and after a period of time they die; physical birth is followed later by physical death. However, in Christ, the order in which birth and death occurs is reversed. In Christ, there is first spiritual death of the ‘old man’, which is immediately followed by spiritual birth of the ‘new man’. Since the same all people who are born in Adam will be made alive in Christ, this means that all people without any exceptions will go through spiritual death followed by spiritual birth, but each one in his own order, as stated in the scripture above.

Romans 6:5-6

5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,

6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

www.godsplanforall.com...

I agree completely, and thanks for the book link! The Bible contains sufficient material to establish Universal Reconciliation as a doctrine, much more than the straws the eternal hell advocates offer, but almost everyone passes over it uncomprehending. Partial blindness? Christians I have shared this idea with just don't get it.

Originally posted by Lazarus Short

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
I wish this whole thread could be "deep sixed" because the thread title is just disgusting and ahborant.

I don't believe in eternal torment or Hell (as usually understood) but it needs to be discussed.
2nd
3rd
If you don't like it, bail.

Then you're going to have a hard time believing anything in the bible then:

Daniel 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Revelation 14:9-11

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

The word condemnation also translates as damnation. Universalism is a deception.

Matthew 25:31-46 (Parable of the goat and sheep)

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


You could take all of those verses as talking about reincarnation. Some will be reincarnated onto another planet like Earth (hell), and some will be reincarnated onto a planet that does not have corruption, deception, and war ingrained into society.

You could also take it to mean karma or dharma. There's always more than one way to read into something.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

You could take all of those verses as talking about reincarnation. Some will be reincarnated onto another planet like Earth (hell), and some will be reincarnated onto a planet that does not have corruption, deception, and war ingrained into society.

You could also take it to mean karma or dharma. There's always more than one way to read into something.

If you read into these other than what it says you're wrong. God doesn't speak of his judgements in riddles to confuse, he wants everyone to know so there is no misunderstanding of the intent.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Except man is the one who wrote the bible then edited it again and again and again. The bible is nothing but riddles, you just have to know how to decipher them.

I am reading it for what it says, I'm just taking it in a different context than you.

Lonewolf:

First, I can easily fit the verses you quoted as fitting into a Universalist interpretation.

Second, Universal Reconciliation has far more "proof texts" going for it than the Eternal Torture camp does [check out a website called "Tentmaker" for a complete list].

Third, we must answer this question: Is God just, merciful, and loving? Of the three main ideas of the fate of men, eternal torture, final annihilation, and universal reconciliation, only the last answers yes, yes, and yes. Common Hell doctrines cause people to doubt the justice, mercy, and love of God, and cause them to turn away from God.

Fourth, I am well aware of various parables, wheat and tares, sheep and goats, etc. However, they are only metaphors, and metaphors have limits.

Fifth, I am not of the extreme camp which believes Satan and fallen angels will be saved. For them the fire was and is reserved.

Why not read that on-line book, God's Plan For All?

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
Lonewolf:

First, I can easily fit the verses you quoted as fitting into a Universalist interpretation.

Second, Universal Reconciliation has far more "proof texts" going for it than the Eternal Torture camp does [check out a website called "Tentmaker" for a complete list].

Third, we must answer this question: Is God just, merciful, and loving? Of the three main ideas of the fate of men, eternal torture, final annihilation, and universal reconciliation, only the last answers yes, yes, and yes. Common Hell doctrines cause people to doubt the justice, mercy, and love of God, and cause them to turn away from God.

Fourth, I am well aware of various parables, wheat and tares, sheep and goats, etc. However, they are only metaphors, and metaphors have limits.

Fifth, I am not of the extreme camp which believes Satan and fallen angels will be saved. For them the fire was and is reserved.

Why not read that on-line book, God's Plan For All?

edit on 3-8-2012 by Lazarus Short because: lah-de-dah

The problem with Universalism is, it doesn't put the focus on believing in Jesus. Universalism says Jesus came and died for everyone all at once and then you can commit as much wanton sin as your heart desires free of repercussion. In the New Testament Jesus stresses believing in Him. That all people will be reconciled to God, and this is just not true. You cannot serve other gods and then expect him to be kosher with that, you're in for a surprise in the end if you do think that. He is a just and righteous God but he will still render judgement to those he deems evil.

Common hell doctrines are scriptural, while i do not focus on the hellfire and condemnation as a missionary baptist, it is still very real and very true. So you're trying to advocate that we sugar coat the reality to make it more palettable for nonbelievers? The answer to that is no, we are told specifically to never add or remove anything from the written word. If they turn away from the truth then it is on their own heads. Universalism changes scripture to cater to the deceptions that the masses want to believe versus what is truly there. No, absolutely not. I don't want to see anyone perish but there will be people who shall which is all the more reason we need to step up our efforts so that we can minimize that loss.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


You have a very skewed perception on reality.

'If it doesn't include Jesus then it's not worth listening to.'

Do you seriously not see how narrow-minded that is? Let go of the propaganda like I did and you are set free.

Try thinking for yourself instead of letting the bible do it for you. Let go of the idea of hell and your mind will be opened and you will be amazed at what you will learn. Become a free thinker instead of being held in the bondage that is religion. Religion has corrupted your free will and your ability to think logically.

Originally posted by Mickierocksman
If it is true (which I know its not) I just think I will get used to all things 'hell' after about 100 years or so......

Another flogging sir?.... Sure why not! Cut off your willy again sir? Yes, but use the two handed sword this time ok.....

Mickierocksman

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

lol, I'm more likely to see, 'If it doesn't contain Jesus, it's worth looking into."

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

If you read into these other than what it says you're wrong. God doesn't speak of his judgements in riddles to confuse, he wants everyone to know so there is no misunderstanding of the intent.

Oh, right, did He tell Adam and Eve in the garden, If you eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you will die and then exist in fiery torture for all eternity? No, He did not, because death was all He had in mind.

You have to ask yourself at some point why God never warned directly of eternity in Hellfire. He often asked "Why should you die - repent and be saved." Ask yourself why simple death was the worst punishment meted out by God's Law.

In Jeremiah 32:35, God was speaking to His people about their false religious practices, in this case, passing their children through the fire to M....h (I try to not speak the names of pagan gods). He stated that such a thing had never even crossed His mind. What? God had never even thought of roasting people in a fire??! The Hellfire doctrine will run you into all sorts of theo-illogical problems, even besides the dearth of proof texts.

reply to post by Lazarus Short

In Jeremiah 32:35, God was speaking to His people about their false religious practices, in this case, passing their children through the fire to M....h (I try to not speak the names of pagan gods). He stated that such a thing had never even crossed His mind. What? God had never even thought of roasting people in a fire??! The Hellfire doctrine will run you into all sorts of theo-illogical problems, even besides the dearth of proof texts

You interpreted this wrong. He never intended for anyone to sacrifice their children to Moloch, he never told them to do it. They were burning their children alive for prosperity and wealth, because that is what Molech worship is and they were doing it of their own cognizance chasing after Idols again. Chapter 32 he reveals his punishment for them chasing after idols, which was another exile from the land he gave them because they refused to listen to him. It's not my doctrine that is flawed, because i stick with what is written. You base your doctrine off of one verse when other chapters contradict you and you're decieving yourself. If even one chapter speaks about eternal torment where they shall recieve no rest, then it contradicts your doctrine and your doctrine is false and that means you're preaching doctrines of devils. The parable of the Rich man and Lazarus ties into this:

Luke 16:19-31

19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell[d] from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

Originally posted by autowrench
reply to post by article

 

That may be so, but when I had my own NDE, I didn't see it, and my Grandpa was about as far from Christianity as he could be, and he was not there either. What I am saying is this, simply: If you wish to believe in such a place, be my guest.

man if they could have only mixed women into heaven somehow... it don't matter even if they are virgins, just a ton of women.

I suspect it would be a quite popular religion (like the recently growing Islam) it would have been checkmate by now with Christians cornering the market even more than they already do...

I choose not to believe.

but you still have made a choice... can you explain to we readers what exactly choosing not to believe actually is?

choosing nothingness is quite easily analyzed using the science known as psychology... which leads me to believe you have a rather bleek outlook about life in general.

nookie cures all... remember that

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

You have a very skewed perception on reality.

'If it doesn't include Jesus then it's not worth listening to.'

Do you seriously not see how narrow-minded that is? Let go of the propaganda like I did and you are set free.

Try thinking for yourself instead of letting the bible do it for you. Let go of the idea of hell and your mind will be opened and you will be amazed at what you will learn. Become a free thinker instead of being held in the bondage that is religion. Religion has corrupted your free will and your ability to think logically.

edit on 3-8-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

Yes, sorry to say, our friend lonewolf19792000 does seem to have a skewed perception of reality, and seems to think Christianity is the only thing to think, or care about. I too have encouraged our friend to open his mind and learn some new things not contained in the Bible. Sadly, there are several die hard Christian Fundamentalists in ATS that care not think about knowledge, science, or technology if it doesn't have the "Jesus Stamp" all over it. They happily sit on their laurels and damn everyone but themselves to Hell and everlasting flames for the crime of not belonging to the same cult as they. And even though some of us has most patiently explained the true origins of the word. The word Hell, in the Old Testament, is always a translation of the Hebrew word Sheol, which occurs sixty-four times, and is rendered "hell" thirty-two times, "grave" twenty-nine times, and "pit" three times.

By examination of the Hebrew, it will be found that its primary meaning is, The place, or state of the dead.
They are fully confident that what they think is going to happen will, and know in their hearts that whatever the Bible says is literally true, even when it isn't.

There are three words translated "Hell" in the New Testament, Hades and Tartarus, which are Greek, and Gehenna, which is the Greek form of the Hebrew word Hinnom, meaning "the valley of Hinnom."

Hell is, according to many religious beliefs, a place or a state of painful suffering. The English word 'hell' comes from the Teutonic 'Hel', which originally meant "to cover" and later referred to the goddess of the Norse underworld, Helgardh. Compare Anglo-Saxon helan and Latin celare = "to hide".

source
There you have it, the history and origins of the concept Hell. And yet I am supposed to believe what a preacher says about Hell and just go with that? I think not. I always ask questions, and look up word origins. Just like everyone should do before making a judgement call.

reply to post by SisyphusRide

but you still have made a choice... can you explain to we readers what exactly choosing not to believe actually is?

Hmmm. Choosing what not to believe in. I choose not to believe the Moon is made of green cheese. That is easy for me, because I have seen photos and read all about the Moon, I know it is not made of green cheese. I believe what I see with my own eyes, touch with my own hand, and some of what I hear with my own ears. Is that such a hard concept to grasp? Let me ask you, what do you base your own beliefs on?

choosing nothingness is quite easily analyzed using the science known as psychology... which leads me to believe you have a rather bleek outlook about life in general.

Actually, I am quite knowledgeable about my life mission in general, and what comes after. The things I have had opportunity to see and experience give me anything but a "bleak outlook" on life. After this mission is over, I am in for some R&R at a place I have been many times before. All that I need, or want is there, and I am well taken care of there. No, it is not "Heaven." No, it is not "Hell." No, you cannot come.

Originally posted by autowrench
reply to post by SisyphusRide

 

but you still have made a choice... can you explain to we readers what exactly choosing not to believe actually is?

Hmmm. Choosing what not to believe in. I choose not to believe the Moon is made of green cheese. That is easy for me, because I have seen photos and read all about the Moon, I know it is not made of green cheese. I believe what I see with my own eyes, touch with my own hand, and some of what I hear with my own ears. Is that such a hard concept to grasp? Let me ask you, what do you base your own beliefs on?

choosing nothingness is quite easily analyzed using the science known as psychology... which leads me to believe you have a rather bleek outlook about life in general.

Actually, I am quite knowledgeable about my life mission in general, and what comes after. The things I have had opportunity to see and experience give me anything but a "bleak outlook" on life. After this mission is over, I am in for some R&R at a place I have been many times before. All that I need, or want is there, and I am well taken care of there. No, it is not "Heaven." No, it is not "Hell." No, you cannot come.

so it sounds like you believe in something...