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posted on Jul, 14 2012 @ 07:58 AM
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reply to post by NarcolepticBuddha
 


Hey, no probs.

You make an excellent point actually. Most, if not all psychiatry and some psychology is really only interested in the identification of symptoms, diagnosis based on said symptoms and subsequent treatment (usually with drugs, but that's a whole other debate). There is a tendency to ignore root cause. I think you're spot on there.... I don't agree though that it is necessarily (though perhaps sometimes
It is) because they cannot identify, or even treat, root causes of disorders of the mind. I think that It's more that they are very complex, usually rooted in a wide variety of causes (not just one thing) and are VERY time consuming (and therefore expensive) to identify and treat. It comes down to simple economics, if you can (sort of) treat symptoms effectively with a cheap drug then that is preferable to (very) long term psychological input to treat the underlying causes. It also has the convenient side-effect (pardon the pun) that the individual never gets well and is therefore dependent on buying the drugs indefinitely (sorry, couldn't help myself).
There is some great info as to the causes of the aforementioned phenomena in the book I mentioned, I recommend borrowing it from your library if you can.
The things you identified ALL happened either just prior to sleeping or just waking, therefore it is fair to say that all of the phenomena you describe COULD (and that's a big could, I haven't got an opinion either way, it's not my place to judge) be ascribed to hypnagogic or hypnopompic experiences.

I also completely support your point of view on not having all the information so being unable to reach a conclusion either way (I know you didn't state this explicitly, I'm paraphrasing). I think that's true of most things.... I prefer though to take a stance of 'it's not there until it can proved it is'. That's just my perspective though...
edit on 14-7-2012 by Milkflavour because: (no reason given)




posted on Jul, 14 2012 @ 08:05 AM
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reply to post by AnonDe
 


Thanks for your post. And so many things you said intuitively feel and sound correct to me. It strikes a chord! You have given me much to think about.

I appreciate your input--great contribution that this thread needed.



posted on Jul, 14 2012 @ 08:15 AM
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Originally posted by NarcolepticBuddha

Originally posted by CrimsonKapital
reply to post by NarcolepticBuddha
 

S @ F

I thank god have never had any "visitations" from alien beings, but sometimes I have wondered whether I have. I have however had experiences with ghosts, and have seen ufos before.


CK
edit on 14-7-2012 by CrimsonKapital because: (no reason given)


As far as I know, neither have I! As I said, the images were so brief and fleeting that it's difficult to be sure exactly what they were and what they were doing.

I have never had experiences with ghosts or UFOs. And I've always wanted to see a UFO in the night sky, that's for sure!

I do not claim to be an ET abductee, I've been attaching this to nearly every one of my replies. Truth is, I don't know what was going on, if anything. I am not convinced that it was a mental disturbance as many would love to tell me though.


edit on 14-7-2012 by NarcolepticBuddha because: (no reason given)


Maybe you aren't actually being "abducted", it could be just your childhood fear that has grown into something ugly? For example, I grew up in a very dysfunctional family and now I find it very difficult to talk to people, I feel like I can trust no one and I have severe depression. Maybe growing up watching all those horror sci-fi movies instilled a "fear" into your subconcious, perhaps?

The ghost experience I have is a long one and it spans two houses, my nans, and a rental my family used to live in. The experience I had at my nans was actually my dead poppy (grandfather), but he didn't do too much. I remember once when me and my brothers and sisters were staying at my nanas house, we were watching t.v. and all of a sudden the candle on top of the tv lifted up in midair and hovered for a few seconds before it flung back behind the tv.
At the rental it was a different experience, there when parents had another baby, and over the baby monitor during the night would be an old "man" talking, there were also weird things in that house the door to my bedroom would open itself up during the night, lights would turn off and on, same with tvs and stuff.
Now here is the VERY SCARY part, my older brother was looking at the rental online on a housing website, now this is not an old house btw only a couple of years old, but there was a picture of the back fence behind our house. Now in this photo it is very hard to see but there is an old "man" who looks like an olden day settler standing in the photo. There was also a scary demon looking creature with claws and there was a "ghost" painting hanging on the fence.

It is very freaky, maybe I should make a thread on it and show ATS the picture, it is very freaky!!

OMG you are like me, I too always wanted to see a UFO and I always heard other peoples stories about seeing them but I always failed to find one. That was until early this year, and it happened so quickly I couldn't believe what happened. To me it was a feeling of awe, wondering wth it was as it crossed the hill.

Thanks for your OP though I really enjoyed it, and not a single spelling mistake too


Take care.

CK



posted on Jul, 14 2012 @ 08:18 AM
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reply to post by Milkflavour
 


What is psychology but the new spirituality? What is the psychologist/psychiatrist but the new priest or shamans of old? Science, right? But, I thought science included observation as well. There is just no way to objectify these subjective experiences. We can only see the objectivity through the MRIs and such. Are we seeing the whole picture though? BUT..

I totally agree with you and I am glad you added this to my thread. I am in no way trying to encourage anybody who thinks they may have had a visitation to immediately claim "Aliens!"

The hypnapompic/ hypnagogic sleep is indeed closely associated with narcolepsy (which I do suffer from). Over the years I have learned to make very close distinctions between these subtle states of consciousness from careful observations and many, many repeated experiences. I am also intimately aware of the tricks our minds play on us during the alpha state of near-sleep.

After all, what is sleep but an altered state of consciousness? People treat it as if it is unnatural and invalid to our perception of reality..and yet, we spend much of our lives in this altered state of consciousness.

I will definitely be making a trip to my library up the road soon! Thanks for the book recommendation!



posted on Jul, 14 2012 @ 08:19 AM
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reply to post by NarcolepticBuddha
 


hey buddha. for a week straight I woke up at exactly 4:44 am. by the end of that week I didnt even need to look at the clock to know it was 4:44. Whaat it all means, have no idea



posted on Jul, 14 2012 @ 08:28 AM
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reply to post by CrimsonKapital
 


No spelling mistakes? Then there are bound to be plenty of misuses with my commas! Haha, I spent enough time writing essays in college making sure they were perfect. I think I'm entitled to a little bit of sloppy, written English.

And you could very well be right about my dysfunctional family and less-than-ideal childhood. The weird part is that I didn't even know I had a dysfunctional family until I got older haha. I never knew my mom was a heavy drinker until after she confessed it to me fairly recently. I never knew about the conflicts my brother was having growing up as the "man of the house" at 15.

I didn't know that missing out on my dad was a bad thing (I still don't). I never felt like I was missing anything! I was well taken care of, fed, clothed. I suppose my mother was somewhat neglectful at times, but believe me, I was never consciously aware of any emotional un-fulfillment (there, I just made up my own word.)

Perhaps the fears and visions were manifestations of everything I wasn't aware of on the conscious level. But, I never really was a big fan of Freud.

Your ghost story sounds chilling indeed! I would love to see a thread on it someday.



posted on Jul, 14 2012 @ 08:33 AM
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reply to post by NarcolepticBuddha
 


Hmm... I'm not sure I can agree that science has anything to do with spirituality. The issue is, as you rightly point out, subjective experiences cannot easily be varified (although, in the case of something like lucid dreaming they were able to varify the subjective reports using scientific observation). It ends up coming down to a matter of belief "I believe there is something otherworldly occurring" or "I believe that this is scientifically explainable, we just don't have the tools or all the info yet". Neither of these viewpoints is more valid than the other, they cancel each other out so to speak, and se we are left with "what do we actually know (or have a weight of evidence for) and does this adequately explain a good proportion of the phenomena we are observing". This is the essence of science, it seeks to disprove itself at all times, in order to further advance our understanding, it seeks new and improved theories that incorporate more of the aspects that remain unexplained by our current understanding. The essence of spirituality is based on belief and subjective experience and it seeks to confirm itself through seeking experiences that reinforce or corroborate the beliefs held. That is the fundamental difference between science and spirituality.

That said, there are surely many incredible things (given the size and complexity of the universe i would say the majority of things) that are yet to be learned and discovered. Who knows, I for one can't wait to find out...



posted on Jul, 14 2012 @ 08:33 AM
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Originally posted by ezekielken
reply to post by NarcolepticBuddha
 


hey buddha. for a week straight I woke up at exactly 4:44 am. by the end of that week I didnt even need to look at the clock to know it was 4:44. Whaat it all means, have no idea


Hi Eze,

I think some part of that has to do with our internal clock. In my younger days I didn't have to set my alarm to wake up at a certain time the next morning, I just had to look at the time I went to bed, count the hours I would be able to sleep until it was time to wake, and some how I'd internally sense how long it was until I needed to wake up and I would do so more or less on the dot. (within a couple of minutes but never late)

Once we take note of a particular time our mind gets set on that time and keeps counting until the next time it occurs and lo and behold we look at the clock at that time and see the number again.
I don't discount that numbers hold specific meaning in and by themselves but I do think that sometimes we see these numbers repeated because our attention is set to do so.

If you are interested in numerology 4:44 = 3 so look up both the 4 and the 3 for some indication what they could be telling you. The answer is somewhere in your own mind I feel.

Much love and good luck finding your answers



posted on Jul, 14 2012 @ 08:37 AM
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reply to post by ezekielken
 


I did mention in one of the earlier posts that I often saw 11:11. Now, this was before I ever had any internet folks. I never listened to coast to coast AM with Mr. Noory. In fact, I was pretty young when I first started seeing it.

As you may have guessed. I think "selective bias" is the most laughable explanation for the 11:11 and other synchronicity phenomenon I have ever heard. Anybody who truly believes in the 'selective bias' explanation has never really had a synchronous moment.

It was absolutely absurd how often I was seeing 11:11. Twice a day by clock. Often times I would wake up suddenly out of sleep, look at my clock to see the numbers, say "whatever" and go back to sleep. Then I'd see it on the clock during hockey games when the clock stopped. I'd see in on receipts as the time of my purchase.

Obviously the hockey clock stops at other times and I buy things at many other times of the day as well. I just don't see them. It's not that I fail to notice it, I simply am not looking at them.

I mentioned how I was treated for cancer out of state, right? There was a mileage sign on the interstate highway..444 miles to my hometown. I always loved that number ever since because it meant I was going home.

Now I see both 11:11 and 4:44 everywhere! all the time! I don't know with certainty what it means either. I have heard many say that it is a wake-up call for spiritually aware people. A wake up call for what? I wish I knew
edit on 14-7-2012 by NarcolepticBuddha because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 14 2012 @ 08:40 AM
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reply to post by NarcolepticBuddha
[more

I was giving my dysfuntional family as just an example, I didn't directly mean yours but seriously I know how you feel. I thought what went on in my family was normal until I grew up and saw what a #ed up childhood I had, although its definately not as bad as some other families.

I can't offer you much on a solution, but maybe God? These entities could be demons feeding off of you so maybe it could be the answer idk I can't really answer for you though.

It has been great talking to you, idk about you but here in Australia its about midnight so I think I'm off to bed

(see the irony:lol
.

Take care.

CrimsonKapital.



posted on Jul, 14 2012 @ 08:42 AM
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reply to post by Milkflavour
 


I didn't mean to imply that science and spirituality are interrelated. And I don't believe that they are incompatible. I simply meant that we go to psychologists for answers when before, we would go to the village priest or village shaman.

A change in paradigm. That's all



posted on Jul, 14 2012 @ 08:47 AM
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Originally posted by Milkflavour
reply to post by NarcolepticBuddha
 


Hmm... I'm not sure I can agree that science has anything to do with spirituality. The issue is, as you rightly point out, subjective experiences cannot easily be varified (although, in the case of something like lucid dreaming they were able to varify the subjective reports using scientific observation). It ends up coming down to a matter of belief "I believe there is something otherworldly occurring" or "I believe that this is scientifically explainable, we just don't have the tools or all the info yet". Neither of these viewpoints is more valid than the other, they cancel each other out so to speak, and se we are left with "what do we actually know (or have a weight of evidence for) and does this adequately explain a good proportion of the phenomena we are observing". This is the essence of science, it seeks to disprove itself at all times, in order to further advance our understanding, it seeks new and improved theories that incorporate more of the aspects that remain unexplained by our current understanding. The essence of spirituality is based on belief and subjective experience and it seeks to confirm itself through seeking experiences that reinforce or corroborate the beliefs held. That is the fundamental difference between science and spirituality.

That said, there are surely many incredible things (given the size and complexity of the universe i would say the majority of things) that are yet to be learned and discovered. Who knows, I for one can't wait to find out...


May I interject- science is supposed to try to disprove it self all the time however evidently it does not. It recurrently takes things for granted and build theories based on other theories as does spiritualism. Being spiritual or looking for answers spiritually is nt to be confused with being religious. Religion more often than not asks for us to accept things without question or further investigation... however spiritualism I feel adhere to scientific basics as much as science in that it is a search for answers to the questions we may have.

Science explain things in particles and waves and uses measuring devices that we built for specific purposes of detecting something or other. But did you ever consider that our bodies also act as measuring devices in the world and that perhaps the best instrument for experiencing and measuring the world is within our own physical being?

In both cases it is our minds that work out the questions to ask and the proofs we need in order to draw conclusions about our findings. The only difference is calibration in my opinion. It is hard to make sure someone elses body is calibrated to the same standard as your own in order to compare readings. Enter meditation and ,spiritual teachings and practises such as shamanism ( aside from religions dogma) .

I really do believe there is no 'other' world there is this world and the only thing that separates the world is our awareness and sensitivities to the signals being sent out all around us all the time. Some are within our awareness some are filtered out and some are beyond our capabilities to experience.

Science and spiritualism look for the same thing, the answer to life, universe and everything which by the by is 42 ;P



posted on Jul, 14 2012 @ 08:57 AM
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reply to post by NarcolepticBuddha
 


When I was a child I was scared of ghosts and I could see them in my head every night I went to bed. I did go through a phase when I needed to keep a light on so they wouldn't haunt me in the darkness behind my eyes. The odd thing is that the "up close and personal" face that would haunt me was what I thought through my inexperienced eyes was a skull, so I transferred my fear to human skeletons. It wasn't until later in life when the archetypical image of a grey came into the media, that I realized the the image of a skull, this grey emotionless face was the face of the large almond eyed grey alien.

One night I had the most terrible dream, I am pretty sure it was a dream, but the place was at the school I attended. We where in class when suddenly the room was filled with these greys and they where extraordinarily nimble and fast and they chased and caught all the children in my class including me. In this dream they where without any doubt the large headed almond eyed creatures with long arms depicted as greys, I don't know why but the length of their arms really stick out in my mind.

It must have many years later before the enduring image of a grey appeared in pictures in papers or magazines but when I first saw them I shuddered as I remembered the face from the nightmares of my childhood.

I know this sounds daft, it sounds daft to me, but it was later in my teans that I noticed that the inside of my nose was distorted. The inside of my right nostril there is a cavity going towards the center but in my left nostril their is a dome going outwards and I have always had difficulty breathing through the left side particularly if I caught a cold. It just seems odd to me that I can never remember when this appeared and I am certain it was not like that when I was a child.

For the past few years now, I have experienced a pain that occurs around the same time every night. It's not exactly the same time each night but within an hour or two. It starts of as a slight ache almost like a toothache but I can't pinpoint it. Then it spreads across my face and up over my left eye and then through my entire head. The pain is really uncomfortable and quiet severe but after 20 minutes or so it disappears again. This occurs every night without fail between 10:00 pm and Midnight. I can never pinpoint where the pain comes from but something always brings me back to the thought that it may emanate from the bulge in the cartilage of my nostril. I am not the kind of person who goes to the doctors, If I do it is just for a prescription of strong painkillers because I believe I can heal myself and I usually do.

Because of my reluctance to see a doctor, I have never mentioned the bulge in my nostril nor the pain I have experienced the past few years. I haven't spoken about this to anybody in fact, and so this is the first time I have shared this with a single soul. I think it is because of the honesty of your post that has prompted me to mention it at all.

I have experienced sleep paralysis most of my adult life and it wasn't until I read about this condition on ATS that I knew anybody else experienced it. I used to call it the buzzes. That is how it always manifests itself although the word buzz can't describe fully what happens to me. It is like an intense electrical feeling that resonates in my head but what happens is, I wake up and my mind becomes sharp and focused but my body is completely asleep. My consciousness wakes up to a dark and desolate place and most of the time I am completely alone with my thoughts but on a few occasions I have seen them. Not the greys but the Demons right there out of nowhere in my face. They remind me of gargoyles on the pillars of some churches, hideous and terrifying black leathery faces with a sharp dark red ridge each side of it's face . This is when I panic and search frantically to find the muscles to wake up,usually in a cold sweat and exhausted from fear.

For those who have never experienced sleep paralysis, you will never understand how real it all is. Your mind is so alert but it doesn't even occur to you that it is a lucid dream which is how I rationalize it now.

Thankfully I haven't had the "buzzes" for a few years now. I am now in my sixties and I do find myself reading ATS and other sites that discuss about aliens, I feel as though I am just waiting, as if I have some rendezvous to meet, I am convinced that aliens are multidimensional and for the most part they don't need to arrive as I believe they are already here and always have been. I don't fear death, nor aliens now. I know without any doubt that there is an incredible love just beyond our perception and what is happening is natural and I believe is necessary for our evolution. Thank you for your honest story, it may prompt others to relate things that have never seen the light of day.



posted on Jul, 14 2012 @ 09:06 AM
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reply to post by IAmD1
 


I couldn't have said it better myself..that's why I'm glad you said it so well. People like to divide spirituality and science..because they just sound so icky together.

Some say science is based on data and that spirituality is based on beliefs. Okay, that's accurate and fair. But we must remember that spirituality is the realm of one's consciousness and that science is in the realm of our physical environment.

When we're dealing with subjective experiences, we must use observational data. Keep a journal. Log your experiences. Describe them. In the chemistry lab, we do the same thing when observing reactions, don't we?



posted on Jul, 14 2012 @ 09:14 AM
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reply to post by IAmD1
 


Hey, thanks for interjecting


I actually agree with much of what you've written there and I think it's interesting that you make a distinction between religion and spirituality.
I think perhaps I was being unfair and a over-generalising. You might be right, perhaps science and spirituality (in thē sense you described it) are essentially looking for the same thing but in different ways. I'm afraid that I often get stuck on the 'spirit' part of spirituality that implies there is a 'soul' and ghosts and a god and an afterlife and whatnot... That doesn't sit well with me at all.... The idea of a universal interrelation between all things however is perfectly sound science, the 'holy grail' of science (if you can stomach such a concept ;o) is a unified theory of everything.... A theory that incorporates all things and explains the nature of all things... Whether you chose to define that as a spiritual connection or not is up to the individual I guess...

What I meant about science seeking to disprove itself is true though. Yes, they accept certain things as a given (or they'd have nothing to work on/from) but the objective is to poke holes in the theory in order to develop a more comprehensive and watertight explanation.... Another FANTASTIC book that explains the development of modern science, from it's early days all the way to recent times is 'You are here: a portable history of the universe'
This contains a great explanation and insight into how science works to disprove itself and develop its theories (that's another one to pick up from the library
)



posted on Jul, 14 2012 @ 09:17 AM
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Originally posted by NarcolepticBuddha
reply to post by IAmD1
 


I couldn't have said it better myself..that's why I'm glad you said it so well. People like to divide spirituality and science..because they just sound so icky together.

Some say science is based on data and that spirituality is based on beliefs. Okay, that's accurate and fair. But we must remember that spirituality is the realm of one's consciousness and that science is in the realm of our physical environment.

When we're dealing with subjective experiences, we must use observational data. Keep a journal. Log your experiences. Describe them. In the chemistry lab, we do the same thing when observing reactions, don't we?




Thank you!

And yes Indeed we do. Funny you should mention chemistry class - there's a U2U from 16:09 that I'm sure will make you raise an eyebrow or two. I guess you've been reading my replies in other threads to make that analogy...



posted on Jul, 14 2012 @ 09:17 AM
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reply to post by kennyb72
 


I have a similar thing going on with my nose. I always thought it was just a deviated septum? When I was treated for cancer I had to have an NG (nasal-gastrointestinal, I believe) tube in my nose for long periods of time when recovering from major surgeries. Now, this tube was probably in for weeks at a time on several different occasions. I always thought that this tube caused me to "grow" a deviated septum, which I never had before. Very intriguing, although I cannot say I experience similar pains.

Sleep paralysis is very frightening at times. There are techniques to overcome and conquer the fear and take control of it. There are also a few techniques to try avoiding it altogether (like sleeping on your side instead of on your back)

Hmm. The straightened spinal column seems to entice sleep paralysis to happen..Sounds like a yoga/ meditation posture to me. Hmm, very interesting indeed. Maybe, just maybe this sleep paralysis is something other than a "dream glitch".

Thanks for sharing your story with us. I, too, feel like I'm just waiting around for the bus to show up. I do not fear death, I have come close to it several times and have never been afraid.

Just be strong, love, and be patient until we can all find that answer we're looking for



posted on Jul, 14 2012 @ 09:22 AM
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Thank you!

And yes Indeed we do. Funny you should mention chemistry class - there's a U2U from 16:09 that I'm sure will make you raise an eyebrow or two. I guess you've been reading my replies in other threads to make that analogy...




Haha, nope. It was just the first thing that came to mind with the chemistry lab. I remember we had to write in extensive detail about the reactions as we observed and measured them. We had to write all the qualitative data, as well as the quantitative data.

I'm just saying, in spirituality, we can only describe the qualitative data. That doesn't mean it's all a bunch of hocus-pokus!



posted on Jul, 14 2012 @ 09:23 AM
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reply to post by NarcolepticBuddha
 


Please read the Quran...I am pretty confident all you experienced were Jin, beings from other dimensions that are mentioned in the Quran....being close to Allah protects you from harm from these beings...and most of all stay positive and KNOW you are always protected by your Creator....I wish you the best of luck, follow the right path...



posted on Jul, 14 2012 @ 09:24 AM
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NarcolepticBuddha,

i felt sorry for your cancer.i hope you can do good.. and it's good to hear that you have started meditation & interested in Hinduism. there is lot learn in Hinduism and you'll get peace which i can assure. i'm a Hindu and i'm in pointless angry with Hinduism. that's just me and my Karma but i'll encourage you towards it's Peace.

Sorry for my English..





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