Does God contradict himself?

reply to post by Akragon


Did I not just say that? Was I not clear enough?

reply to post by jhill76


According to the Bible, nothing existed before. He created everything. Therefore, he created sin.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Akragon

 

Did I not just say that? Was I not clear enough?

Why is "God" allowed to do everything Satan is supposed to do, and yet when compared with him, Satan is evil and God is good? If we get tempted, it's God testing us. But if we get drunk, it's because the Devil made us do it.

Yes you did... What you said here is from a christian perspective though... placing blame on another seems to be engraved into their dogma.

I was saying its an incorrect line of thought

reply to post by Raelsatu

Sorry I'm not following you on this one. The Garden was supposed to be a place of perfection where two of God's perfect creations could live in bliss forever. But the contradiction is that he ALLOWED a fallen angel (Lucifer) to enter the garden under the guise of a talking snake; as well as [metaphorical] tree of evil. These two things are the primary factors in the setup in the fall of man.

He allowed him to come in to show the others (angels) that man will fall into temptation, because they had high hopes for man (as they helped plan man). Father knew what will happen, with the current setup. He needed to show them by experience, not just telling them how it would be, as they would not have learned properly.

The point here is whether or not the morality is consistent. He specifically says "thou shalt not kill", and then on numerous occasions orders people/angels to carry out mass-murder/genocide. Even on children. The father sets the example for his children. God is setting an example of select murder.

Man shouldn't kill, because they cannot judge like God can. They can never know of intent, thoughts, and everything else that is needed to know to make a proper decision. Still he is just taking them back out of the experience of life.

Do you think anyone who commits adultery, homosexuality, blasphemy, curses their parents, or violates the Sabbath should be executed??

This was of mans writings, not what Father wanted.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by jhill76

 

According to the Bible, nothing existed before. He created everything. Therefore, he created sin.

The bible speaks of creation of man and that beginning, not the true beginning of all. He created the knowledge of sin. Meaning, this is how to live, but since you have your own will, this is the opposite of good, if that makes sense.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Good post. Before the universe there was "nothing", apart from some well of omniscient consciousness that birthed this primordial creation --- which actions and thoughts constitute sin. Which in turn by default of nature, damns us all to an existence indivisible from suffering.

The existence of sin and hell, by any logically consistent regard, is due to the source of all that is --- God.

Originally posted by jhill76

He allowed him to come in to show the others (angels) that man will fall into temptation, because they had high hopes for man (as they helped plan man). Father knew what will happen, with the current setup. He needed to show them by experience, not just telling them how it would be, as they would not have learned properly.

Again, you're not making much sense. You're saying that the angels helped "plan" man? When did this occur, and does the Bible say anything about that? From what you're asserting, it sounds like God used people as his guinea pigs to set the example of how conscious beings will always fall into temptation. So in essence, we're a lab experiment that God feels he can dispose of by throwing into a place of eternal fire.... if we don't bow to him and love him like the mad scientist he is?

Man shouldn't kill, because they cannot judge like God can. They can never know of intent, thoughts, and everything else that is needed to know to make a proper decision. Still he is just taking them back out of the experience of life.

So God judged the countless number of children he had killed? Your argument is in defense of tyranny. One conscious person has the moral right to carry out ANY act, but every other thing is ordered to not do certain things on pain of death.

This was of mans writings, not what Father wanted.

Precisely, WRITTEN BY MEN. What makes you think you can cherry pick which parts of scripture are inspired by God and which are not? And if the entire thing is not equally inspired/in-tampered, then the book is not infallible.

reply to post by Raelsatu


"The book" is NOT infallible my friend...

theres plenty of threads on this forum to show that fact...

reply to post by Raelsatu

You're saying that the angels helped "plan" man? When did this occur, and does the Bible say anything about that?

No it does not, because this information has no bearing on your life down here, just like many other things which are not written.

From what you're asserting, it sounds like God used people as his guinea pigs to set the example of how conscious beings will always fall into temptation. So in essence, we're a lab experiment that God feels he can dispose of by throwing into a place of eternal fire.... if we don't bow to him and love him like the mad scientist he is?

Even so, he is not using man as guinea pigs. You still have a choice on what to do, he is just saying by the current setup man will fall into temptation. How can the actions of others be blamed on Father?

So God judged the countless number of children he had killed? Your argument is in defense of tyranny. One conscious person has the moral right to carry out ANY act, but every other thing is ordered to not do certain things on pain of death.

I was using the example of man judging, because you said well God can, but man can't. He created you, why can't he decide to let you live here, or let you live at another time or place? You can't even use the argument of Father/son on Earth, because the dad didn't create you like God did. The earth dad, just helped in forming the body.

What makes you think you can cherry pick which parts of scripture are inspired by God and which are not? And if the entire thing is not equally inspired/in-tampered, then the book is not infallible.

Again, you must have me confused with another. I do not need the bible to tell me all that is, because I know all that is. I only use the bible as a reference point, because others require scripture when speaking.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Raelsatu

 

"The book" is NOT infallible my friend...

theres plenty of threads on this forum to show that fact...

I think since I am closet to a Christian in tone, many think I follow what Christians do and how they think. Thus why many on here, say what the OP said in his reply.

I think the ultimate contradiction when considering the idea of a supreme "God" is the concept of human free will in light of God's assumed omniscience.

I couldn't describe it better than this person, though:

Source

"How can God be omniscient all-knowing if we have free will? If we can be free to make our own choices, and these are not pre-determined in any way, then God cannot know what we will do before we do it. So doesn't this mean that God is not all-knowing? How can God be omniscient if he doesn't know what we will do? And if God doesn't know everything, doesn't this mean that God is imperfect?

And if he does know what we will do, doesn't this mean that we do not really have free will? But if we don't have the free will to make our own choices, how can we be eternally judged for those choices? And if God knows what we will do before we do it, then it is pre-determined what we will do before we do it - so therefore we are not "free" to "choose", because no matter what happens we will end up doing exactly what we will do, there is no other option. Thus, doesn't the knowledge of God's absolute omniscience (assuming he knows what we will do) mean we have to resign ourselves to the realization that we can never deviate from doing what we were always going to do? Isn't this the antithesis of "free will"?

And even if God "knows" what we will do, but we are still somehow "free" to choose that thing we do, doesn't this mean that God sanctions everything we do? If God knows what we will do in advance, why bother letting us live our lives at all, why not just judge us before we are even born, because it is inevitable that God knows even at that point whether or not we will be good or bad, go to heaven or hell. What is the purpose in playing out a tragic comedy of humanity if God already knows with certainty what we will do, which of us will go to heaven and which will not? Why not spare all the human suffering and pain of life and death and just judge us all before it even happens, since (whether or not we have "free will") he already knows the outcome of everything that will ever happen? Doesn't the fact that God knows this ultimate outcome for everything but still lets the suffering and horrible pain of so many innocent people continue mean that God has no concern for our suffering and pain? He could end it with no change in the ultimate consequences or outcome, so why doesn't he?" -- The Last Man (Philosopher)

Source

Originally posted by DeyTookErJeobs
Doesn't god say in the bible he created us in our image, another contradiction if you ask me, saying there is more than one god!

edit on 13/7/2012 by DeyTookErJeobs because: (no reason given)

Not really if you think god as a singular plural.

To op. He/she is a bit schizophrenic especially on earth from my point of view when the birthamnesia hits.

reply to post by apushforenlightment


depends on how you read the book..

There are many Gods mentioned in the bible... only one is the real one...

Jesus vs OT God

Originally posted by jhill76

Originally posted by DeyTookErJeobs
Doesn't god say in the bible he created us in our image, another contradiction if you ask me, saying there is more than one god!

edit on 13/7/2012 by DeyTookErJeobs because: (no reason given)

He was speaking to the angels above, not another God. I don't see how people are drawing this conclusion. He was speaking of the form of the ones who are above, man took on the form of what above looks like, just without the wings and garments.

I think he was talking about himself/themselves. It fits with other spiritual teachings so I do not think it's wrong but a puzzle to solve that explains everything. Sorry for the bad pun/double meaning but I could not resist . Lol

Originally posted by Raelsatu
YES is the answer to your question. There are many contradictions, both moral and logical inconsistencies within God's parameters.

The most clear one being that God is about as egotistical and jealous as it comes. If you choose to worship another idol/god based on the many factors that bring you to such a decision, he's jealous enough to say you deserve eternal hell. Similarly if your biological father said if you didn't love him with all your heart, he'd throw you into a brick oven. Would that make you actually love him more or less?? Holding somebody's love for ransom is demented & irrational.

He slaughtered thousands of innocent newborns. Does that make it ok since he's....God? Apparently yes. Apparently mass-murder and genocide is fine so long as God does/orders it.

He created man with foreknowledge of everything that would unfold, and still set their fall up perfectly. Even allowed an evil talking 'snake' into the so-called perfect garden.

These are only a few of the many inconsistencies in a being that's supposed to be perfect and all-loving.

That is humans perception/view of god but that speaks more off the people who are experiancing it. If you do not like a certain view/religion of god why do you not try another. Duality is manmade not god made. God could not care less for dogma but love when you send loving thoughts to him. If you do not like seeking spiritual enlightment then be nice and enjoy life as good as you can.

Originally posted by apushforenlightment

That is humans perception/view of god but that speaks more off the people who are experiancing it. If you do not like a certain view/religion of god why do you not try another. Duality is manmade not god made. God could not care less for dogma but love when you send loving thoughts to him. If you do not like seeking spiritual enlightment then be nice and enjoy life as good as you can.

Thanks for the response, but I'm not referring to just any god. I posted in regard to the Biblical Christian God, who by evidence of his own book is contradictory. I was raised Christian so it's the religion I'm most familiar with.

If we're talking about any other God, I have different views and opinions based on such. But to be honest I don't have enough knowledge of Islam, Hinduism, etc to really comment on their gods.

If we're talking the concept itself of God, then for sure I'm open to the possibility of there being a Creator. I think intelligent design is possible in every sense, and think people that shun the idea because it's not "scientific" are close-minded.

Lastly, I'm respectful towards spirituality; in-fact I'm very spiritual myself. Yet I find it hard to respect or comply with a book that states some God will route you to eternal damnation if you don't love him. The human mind either gives into the fear-trip or it wades into different waters in search of truths.

reply to post by Raelsatu


Of course the bible has contradictions. I knew a guy who was a bible teacher. He said that the contradictions were in the bible on purpose, and the words were to be read as a whole.

But, it's still kind of funny when people claim there are no contridictions
www.youtube.com...

Originally posted by DeyTookErJeobs
Doesn't god say in the bible he created us in our image, another contradiction if you ask me, saying there is more than one god!

edit on 13/7/2012 by DeyTookErJeobs because: (no reason given)

Let us create man in our image, means that man was created in Gods image. The "our" is the Godhead discussing amongst themselves

Originally posted by Raelsatu

Originally posted by apushforenlightment

That is humans perception/view of god but that speaks more off the people who are experiancing it. If you do not like a certain view/religion of god why do you not try another. Duality is manmade not god made. God could not care less for dogma but love when you send loving thoughts to him. If you do not like seeking spiritual enlightment then be nice and enjoy life as good as you can.

Thanks for the response, but I'm not referring to just any god. I posted in regard to the Biblical Christian God, who by evidence of his own book is contradictory. I was raised Christian so it's the religion I'm most familiar with.

If we're talking about any other God, I have different views and opinions based on such. But to be honest I don't have enough knowledge of Islam, Hinduism, etc to really comment on their gods.

If we're talking the concept itself of God, then for sure I'm open to the possibility of there being a Creator. I think intelligent design is possible in every sense, and think people that shun the idea because it's not "scientific" are close-minded.

Lastly, I'm respectful towards spirituality; in-fact I'm very spiritual myself. Yet I find it hard to respect or comply with a book that states some God will route you to eternal damnation if you don't love him. The human mind either gives into the fear-trip or it wades into different waters in search of truths.

Had the same problem with eternal hell when people had understood and could behave and will never accept that. Then I got my own answers and could not care less about people thinking/preaching that. Especially since the new testament was decided by poleticians what should be included and other parts where excluded since it did not help with conditioning/stability of the rulers. The mystics who belived in Gnosis of themselves and achiving christ conciousness where not liked by the rulers who could not let go of wants and do the same.

I love myself and especially the part of me that can be empathic sometimes. I love my friends/soulborthers and soulsister in my own way. By loving some people and being empathetic I am being lovely and empathetic with god.

From Jesus mouth:
www.biblegateway.com...
Nonduality

From Hinduism:
www.stillnessspeaks.com...
Nonduality

In buddism we have the same nonduality.

If you bring duality to religon and cannot accept nonduality then you will only get your own ideas back and a lot of hate for what is different than yourself. If you read religous scripture from the point of nonduality then you will see the signs of it and can find a oneness beetween the different religons that speak of the thing hidding behind religon. God do not make misstakes. The different religious views are here for a reason and show a very cool picture when you use all the pieces of the puzzle. God is so funny. Playing hide and seek all the time.

One of the messages from the others side.


Parable of the blind men and elephant. A study in different descriptions of the same thing.

"Blind monks examining an elephant", an 1888 ukiyo-e print by Hanabusa Itchō
The ancient Jain texts often explain the concepts of anekāntvāda and syādvāda with the parable of the blind men and an elephant (Andhgajanyāyah), which addresses the manifold nature of truth.

A group of blind men heard that a strange animal, called an elephant, had been brought to the town, but none of them were aware of its shape and form. Out of curiosity, they said: "We must inspect and know it by touch, of which we are capable". So, they sought it out, and when they found it they groped about it. In the case of the first person, whose hand landed on the trunk, said "This being is like a drain pipe". For another one whose hand reached its ear, it seemed like a kind of fan. As for another person, whose hand was upon its leg, said, "I perceive the shape of the elephant to be like a pillar". And in the case of the one who placed his hand upon its back said, "Indeed, this elephant is like a throne". Now, each of these presented a true aspect when he related what he had gained from experiencing the elephant. None of them had strayed from the true description of the elephant. Yet they fell short of fathoming the true appearance of the elephant.

There is a claim that God is sinless perfection, but I can't see it or believe. This is one problem I have with the concept.

According to the Catholic Church, there are Seven Deadly Sins:

Lust, Wrath, Sloth, Greed, Envy Gluttony and Pride.

And if any human being engages in these behaviors, he is sinning.

But it can be argued that God is a sinner.

God is angry, wrathful, greedy, and envious. He must be because if he did he wouldn't have done these things:

He demands that every single person in the world be converted to Christianity and demands that all human beings, each and every single one, obey him and follow his rules. All seven billion of them. If that's not greed, I don't know what is.

One of his commandments is Thou shalt have no other Gods before me, for I am a jealous God.

And he gets angry if people don't worship him or follow his rules.

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

Which means that in that condemnation, an unbeliever is sent to hell to be tortured for all eternity.

I am sorry, but I cannot believe that that is an act of love. Christians will always try to spin it as one, but it can't be.

God is wrathful.

He destroys Sodom And Gomorrah, sends the plagues to Egypt, and floods the entire world for not doing as he says.

I'm sorry, but I just don't see these as sinless perfection. So I see this as a huge contradiction. If he is indeed sinless perfection, then he does not cause wonton destruction at his whim. This is an act of malevolence, not a kind and loving god.

A kind and loving God does not commit acts of evil, nor does he or she permit acts of evil and protects the followers from it.

But Christians will argue that these actions are not sin, and that God is fully justified in these acts. It's ONLY a sin when humans do these things.

In short, Christians will argue that God can do no wrong, no matter what, and that any action, no matter how vile, is not a crime unto humanity and is fully justified and righteous for God to do.

And that is one attitude that turns me off of Christianity.