Exposing the lies in the Official Story

'Debunkers' claim that the damage to the tower lobby's were caused by Jet Fuel.

As you can see from this firefighter that was actually there, he says the damage to the lobby was away from the lift, and he is adamant the damage was not caused by jet fuel.

Interview with John Schroeder 911 FIREMAN


Then you have this famous video of 3 firemen sitting on the wall, and the one in the middle, Jimmy (James) Grillo, the one with the bloody nose, was interviewed on the Larry King show the day after, I'll get to that in a minute.

In this video, the men state they got to the building after it was already on fire, and whilst they were i nthe lobby waiting to go upstairs there were 3 explosions in the tower, the 3rd explosion made the lobby collapse, not the actual tower, and because the lobby collpased, they got out of their because their lives were in danger. Lucky for them they got out when they did, because a little while later the tower (south) collpased.

Now there was a 'debunker' trying to argue the other day that Jimmy Grillo was in the Marriott Hotel (WTC3), but the 'debunker' was quoting from a dubious source, which is deliberate disinfo. and as you will see from the following 2 videos that feature Fireman Jimmy Grillo, he was most certainly in the South Tower when the lobby collapsed.

Note, the lobby collpased after the 3rd explosion, and they arrived after the building was already on fire.

Suppressed Firefighter's Spliced Full Interview - CBS News raw footage


These firemen were from ladder 24, and as you can see in this interview with Larry King, Jimmy (James) Grillo clearly states he was in the South Tower lobby, when the lobby collapsed. Larry King says at the start that he was in the tower when the tower collapsed, but he was wrong, and Jimmy Grillo states, he was in WTC2 South tower, not when the whole building collpased, but when the lobby collpased, so there can be no confusion where he was, even though 'debunkers' like to produce a dubious link stating Ladder 24 were in the Marriott Hotel.

9/12/01 News Coverage: Larry King Interviews NYC Firefighters


So from this we can tell that Jimmy Grillo arrived in WTC2 South Tower after it was on fire, and after any of this alleged jet fuel by the OS camp would have occured, and then there were 3 explsoions, the 3rd making the lobby collpase in on them. The fireman in the 1st video, John Schroeder, also states it could not have been jet fuel. There were numerous eye witness accounts of explosions, plenty of videos with sounds of explosions going off, and many videos, that look like charges going off on multiple floors.

In this following video Jeffery Smith, an eye witness & office worker, working close to the towers states that explosions wen off between 20th and 30th floors, way below the impact zone, and there are a few other people in the video confirming explosions on a wide range of different floors. Jeffery goes on to tell of the health issues he suffered from the dust cloud. Quite a revealing video.



As many of you know, molten metal was seen pouring from the corners of one of the towers, and it has been suggested this was most likely an incendary such as thermate, to assist with the cutting of core beams. Gordon Ross in his presentation states the corners are the areas that need to be cut or blown out, to enable the building to come down the way it did. Firemen have also confirmed that there was molten in the debris, they described it as being similar to a metal foundary, or lava from a volcano.

However, John Gross from NIST denies that there was molten steel in the bottom of the towers, as you can see from this video, he is obviously telling lies because video evidence, and firemen have shown that there indeed was molten steel.

John Gross (NIST) denies existance of molten metal


As we know NIST claim WTC7 collpased due to fire alone, and they agree that until 9/11, no steel framed buildings had collpased due to fire. We also know that NIST state that they did not do any investigation to see if explosives were used to bring either of the 3 buildings down, even though there are many eye witnesses and videos to suggest otherwise.

NY Policeman Craig Bartmer says that there was not sufficent damage or sufficient fires to WTC7 for it to come down the way it did, NIST claim fires made the building collpase the way it did, many people do not believe this theory. I'll let you listen to Craig's interview and decide for yourself.

Here is what Craig Bartmer has to say.

9/11 First Responder - Interview with Craig Bartmer



Many people have noticed lies in the official story, these I have brought up are just a few, there are many more than this, and I have made this thread so that anyone that disbeleives the official story can post any lies they have found in the Official Story (OS).

Please take the time to watch the videos, if there are any new members that still believe what they were told by the mainstream media, then please do analyse all this information, and all the OS lies that members post.

No dount there will be a barage of 'debunkers' trying to counter anything about the OS that is exposed as a lie, but I'll leave you to use your own common sense to see who is telling the truth.

Semi-Official Comment: To the extent you present your case using facts, it can be persuasive. To the extent you attempt to characterize the opinions of unspecified others, you undermine your case and literally invite the thread to crash in flames .

Why not just focus on the facts, and let readers decide for themselves?

Anyway, I don't want to derail the thread with "meta" commentary myself, but I can guarantee that any discussion founded on tangential fallacies like "truthers versus debunkers" is doomed to failure, and recommend against falling into that time-worn trap.

Just sayin'

reply to post by thegameisup

The Official Story and 'debunkers' claim that the damage to the tower lobby's were caused by Jet Fuel.

"official story" source please. Or else the rest of this post is one big whopper.

Originally posted by Majic
Semi-Official Comment: To the extent you present your case using facts, it can be persuasive. To the extent you attempt to characterize the opinions of unspecified others, you undermine your case and literally invite the thread to crash in flames .

Why not just focus on the facts, and let readers decide for themselves?

Anyway, I don't want to derail the thread with "meta" commentary myself, but I can guarantee that any discussion founded on tangential fallacies like "truthers versus debunkers" is doomed to failure, and recommend against falling into that time-worn trap.

Just sayin'

I have provided videos that are from people that were there, and these are truthful accounts, and I always encourage people to check everything out for themselves, that is something I try to do. I'm not out to force my opinions on anyone, just provide factual accounts by people that can be verified as being truthful accounts, and then people can decide for themselves what to make of them. I think that is important.

Originally posted by hooper
"official story" source please. Or else the rest of this post is one big whopper.

Excellent point and I give you a star for your observation. Nowhere in "the official story" does it address what caused which explosion, and how. It's becoming clear that the entire reason why they're seeing problems with "the official story" is because they're deliberately misrepresenting what the "official story" actually is specifically so they can criticize it.

This is the definition of a strawman argument, after all.

Originally posted by hooper
reply to post by thegameisup

 

The Official Story and 'debunkers' claim that the damage to the tower lobby's were caused by Jet Fuel.

"official story" source please. Or else the rest of this post is one big whopper.

Edited just to please you, and so as not confuse the matter. Added another video, from NY policeman Craig Bartmer too.

Originally posted by GoodOlDave

Originally posted by hooper
"official story" source please. Or else the rest of this post is one big whopper.

Excellent point and I give you a star for your observation. Nowhere in "the official story" does it address what caused which explosion, and how. It's becoming clear that the entire reason why they're seeing problems with "the official story" is because they're deliberately misrepresenting what the "official story" actually is specifically so they can criticize it.

This is the definition of a strawman argument, after all.

Edited to please you and hooper, so not to cause any confusion. By you both stating this, it highlights that some 'debunkers' made up the jet fuel theory themselves, if it is not in the official reports.

reply to post by thegameisup

As you can see from this firefighter that was actually there, he says the damage to the lobby was away from the lift, and he is adamant the damage was not caused by jet fuel.

Other witnesses say otherwise.........

. Firefighter John Morabito of ladder 10, which is just 200 yards from the north tower.
“Just inside the front entrance, Morabito found two victims of the fireball. A man, already dead, was pushed against a wall, his clothes gone, his eyeglasses blackened, his tongue lying on the floor next to him. The other was a woman, with no clothes, her hair burned off, her eyes sealed.

“The woman, she sat up. I’m yelling to her, ‘Don’t worry, we’re going to help you,’” Morabito said. “She sat up and was trying to talk, but her throat had closed up. She died right there.” www.fdnytenhouse.com...

Mercedes Rivera: I saw a burned woman in a sitting position in the lobby, as if she was still typing behind a desk.... She was already dead.” Susan Hagen and Mary Carouba. Women at Ground Zero: Stories of Courage and Compassion. Indianapolis: Alpha Books, 2002. P. 22

Peter Blaich FDNY

As we got to the third floor of the B stairway, we forced open an elevator door which was burnt on all three sides. The only thing that was remaining was the hoistway door. And inside the elevator were about I didn’t recognize them initially, but a guy from 1 Truck said oh my God, those are people. They were pretty incinerated. And I remember the overpowering smell of kerosene. That’s when Lieutenant Foti said oh, that’s the jet fuel. I remember it smelled like if you’re camping and you drop a kerosene lamp.

The same thing happened to the elevators in the main lobby. They were basically blown out. I do’nt recall if I actually saw people in there. What got me initially in the lobby was that as soon as we went in, all the windows were blown out, and there were one or two burning cars outside. And there were burn victims on the street there, walking around. We walked through this giant blown-out window into the lobby.

There was a lady there screaming that she didn’t know how she got burnt. She was just in the lobby and then next thing she knew she was on fire. She was burnt bad. And somebody came over with a fire extinguisher and was putting water on her.

That’s the first thing that got me. That and in front of one of the big elevator banks in the lobby was a desk and I definitely made out one of the corpses to be a security guard because he had a security label on his jacket. I’m assuming that maybe he was at a table still in a chair and almost completely incinerated, charred all over his body, definitely dead. And you could make out like a security tag on his jacket. And I remember seeing the table was melted, but he was still fused in the chair and that elevator bank was melted, so I imagine the jet fuel must have blown right down the elevator shaft and I guess caught the security guard at a table, I guess at some type of checkpoint. www.firehouse.com...

.

Brian Reeves, a 34-year-old security guard, was nearly killed while making the rounds in the lobby of 1 World Trade Center on September 11. He started to run after hearing an explosion that he said sounded like a missile, but he was knocked down by a fireball that roared down the elevator shaft.

Reeves suffered third-degree burns to 40 percent of his body before he was able to pat out the flames. He was one of 20 critically-injured patients rushed to New York Presbyterian’s burn unit that day. www.ny1.com...

.

(Vasana) Mutuanot was in the lobby of Tower One when she heard the first explosion. Thinking it was a bomb like the terrorist attack in 1993, she turned to run, looking over her shoulder as flames leaped from a freight elevator shaft cooking her back and legs and right cheek. "It was a fireball with sand and heat, like a hurricane of fire," she said.
www.chron.com...

Mututanont ran out of the building then fell after flying glass sliced through a tendon in her leg. A wall of fire followed her outside.
“Swept to my back from my feet up and then I see fire all over, in my hair, also. A lot of people just blew away, you know, like that.” www.pbs.org...

.

Numerous witness reporting fire coming from elevator banks and killing or severely burning people in its path


Problem with Schroeder is he has "issues" which affect his credibility and make him unreliable.....

reply to post by thedman


Most of this just confirms what I said that there was damage away from the lift, this is what I was referring to.

Seeing as Jimmy Grillo stated there were 3 explosions in thew south tower lobby, after he arrived at the south tower, and this is after the building was already on fire in the impact zone, how do you think these 3 explosions occurred?

Any one of these 3 explosions could have effected the lift area, but none of them could have been from jet fuel because Jimmy Grillo arrived after the building way on fire in the top part of the building.

Even experienced fireman John Schroeder said the damage in the lobby could not have been caused by what was happening above.

The link you provided for the 'jet fuel' claim did not work, and many of these links are not very official or trust worthy sources, probably many of the disinfo sources that exist on the internet.

Do you have any official sources for claims of jet fuel, that can be verified?

Why did none of the official government reports mention jet fuel?

Do you have any video interviews of official firemen stating the claims you make about jet fuel?

Please do let me know what caused the 3 explosions that Jimmy Grillo was caught up in, baring in mind these 3 explosions happened after the impact, after the south tower was already on fire.

reply to post by thegameisup


Are you saying that the jet fuel would just explode in the elevators and stop traveling? Fire and explosions don't work that way.

reply to post by thegameisup


Links....? Only problem I had was with link to FIREHOUSE magazine, think they moved their 9/11 stories
to special archive Have to look for it....

Must not have tried too hard as other links work and lead to original stories which are excerpted

As for "official reports" detailing jet fuel

Can find passing references to it in FEMA report (pg 21-22)

www.fema.gov...

Also mentioned in NIST Egress Study (pg 114-115)

www.nist.gov...

The "Official Sources" were more concerned with how and why the buildings collapsed, most of the
emphasis was on the impact floors, not what was happening in lobby 100 floors below

Devasting as its was to the to people caught up in the freballs in the lobby it was irrevlevant to the overall
collapse of the buildings.....

Do you want to tell this woman she is lying?

www.usatoday.com...

This is the first. No explosions. Jet fuel.

I have issues with the format of this thread. It is very hard to know what it is about. I suggest a format similar to:

1) The claim made in the official story.
2) The maker of that claim.
3) The source that were used.
4) Proof that those sources are false.
5) Proof that the sources used to determine this are not false
6) Proof that there were ill intentions and not just errors or bias.
7) Come with an alternative explanation that explains the available evidence better,

It seems to me you have a long way to go until you have exposed anything, but good luck with it.

reply to post by thegameisup


" 'Debunkers' claim " lol indeed.

Originally posted by Varemia
reply to post by thegameisup

 

Are you saying that the jet fuel would just explode in the elevators and stop traveling? Fire and explosions don't work that way.

tell me, debunker, something about the way wtc towers were built considering fire and such calamities?

Originally posted by -PLB-
I have issues with the format of this thread. It is very hard to know what it is about. I suggest a format similar to:

1) The claim made in the official story.
2) The maker of that claim.
3) The source that were used.
4) Proof that those sources are false.
5) Proof that the sources used to determine this are not false
6) Proof that there were ill intentions and not just errors or bias.
7) Come with an alternative explanation that explains the available evidence better,

It seems to me you have a long way to go until you have exposed anything, but good luck with it.

Hey, this seems a very useful thread outline format suggestion, would it be ok for me to use it in a thread I create?

I haven't made a thread yet but I am working on one. I want it to have structure, be factual and informative, to present a means of spirited debate and to even be a bit entertaining. I feel that no matter what side a person is on, good purposeful structure to a thread, as you indicate, can only help the case you're making, whatever that may be.

Good idea. Everyone should take note of this and try to cover these bases when making a thread. It may also help to keep the topic going so that it doesn't delve into off topic snipes and personal attacks too quickly.


Cheers

reply to post by Varemia


I will tell you what i am saying very clearly...MOST of the fuel from the planes exploded on the ....OUTSIDE of the structure....IT is what happens...the fuel ignites and gets spent very quickly....the planes were not full of fuel as the purdue university vid would try to have people believe...and people go on about perdue...but never...not once....ever...does it get mentioned that the whole thing was done as a project by undergraduates.

what fuel remained...was little comparatively that actually entered the towers...also South tower WAS not A direct hit....was it now....so how much fuel actually entered the lift shafts on the strike....Why do people try to make out both towers were similar it their damage and strikes...they were completely different...but what was the same was this....they both suffered straight down collapses....they both went through the paths of most resistance.....They both were well built Structures.....they both were not these little weak a$$ buildings like people would try to have people to believe...and why would you want people to believe this other then to lie...also the shafts were not continuous all the way to the bottom of the structures...they staggered...they staggered on 78th....and again on 44th...but not one of the so called debunkers ever consider this FACT....why is that?.






as you can see the ONLY continuous shaft is the Express lift from 76th down

But of course this does not matter now does it....so the planes strike above 78th....yet people want us to believe the fuel ...WHILE ignited...just happily flows down the shafts...yet from ALL the video and photo Graphic evidence the fires did not proceed much below the impact Zones.

Please can one debunker show fires from any video or photographic evidence that the fires had progressed beyond the 78th floor.....I bet you can't can you....check the volume of the shafts...and compare volume to that of which the planes fuel held...and the calculate the volume of fuel that burned off outside the building...and then...and only possibly then you might actually realize how little amount of fuel the was left to run down the shafts...and not only that...how much Ignited fuel would have traveled...DOWN the shafts.

Now building seven...does not follow into any of the debunker scenarios...not plane hit it....it suffered little damage....the so called gaping 20 story hole has not once...get it....NOT ONCE been shown to be true other than some witness account...and if truthers are not allowed to submit witness account of explosions then...how can you submit witness account of gaping 20 STORY hole....I know this is not all directed at you verm...but It should make you think...just think.

reply to post by plube


That last post was epic plube.... maybe the jet fuel switched elevators along the way to the lobby

But really, Bush admitted there were explosives in the towers, so this is all just window dressing anyway.....

reply to post by -PLB-


IT is about the lies presented to people...how the heck could you have issue with the thread...is that a method for having the thread closed...because an intelligent person like yourself do not understand the title...come on PLB...your better than that.

It is a good thread because it can expose how people are being lied to by people trying to protect the OS .....There is really no OS anyways....the commission failed...the NIST and FEMA reports conflict.....There is no real proof on the hijackers...and as more and more comes out the OS cannot get to grips on one SINGLE aspect of the story.....the OS story is falling to pieces faster than gravity can bring down three steel structures in a SINGLE day due to gravity alone...and before some debunker jumps on what i just said....after the impacts...the fires...the only thing available to bring down the building was...what...GRAVITY.

reply to post by plube


Only the atomized fuel exploded. The rest was in liquid form and traveled down the elevators. Since there was one that went all the way down, it could easily carry the explosion down the entire tower. It's the fuel in the air that is combustible, not the liquid.