physics guys: i need help understanding something

i watched a show last night called "the fabric of the universe" and they were saying that our universe may be a holographic projection, and while ive heard this before, i started wondering how this works.

they said that black holes capture information and it becomes encoded on its surface and projects it back out.
sooo, if we are a projection, that must mean that our world must have been consumed by a black hole at one time.

and if that is true, and we are just a projection, then how does the black hole project our Consciousness into this world?

and how does a black hole encode and project anything? a hologram is not a natural phenomenon.

they never address the fact that , if this is true, that it has to be accomplished by an Intelligence somewhere.

and what of the "actual" world that we are a projection of?
were they more "real" than we are?

i read your post backward's, so i didn't really understand.

reply to post by lonewolf10


Sort of like the way ambient sound can be modulated onto a piece of pottery as it is being spun. The phonograph record effect. I suppose they are saying that this reality could be relayed on a stream of xray energy spewing from the poles of a black hole.

Just another attempt to confuse people and conceal the truth.

errm...if we are jetting out from two poles, then this means we have an evil twin? Or are we the evil twin?

I think this is a long trip into theoretical physics where, if I'm not mistaken, everything is theory as the name might imply. Or..Perhaps I have that a big backwards.. Oh heck. Your little brain twister there is enough to give a guy a headache. I can kinda picture the solution but I think it's my brain rejecting even grasping the concept of what you're suggesting. We'd basically be existing in a kind of endless bubble of glitch...err..how else do ya put it?

haha, its a brain twister for sure!

i guess the reason that they dont go further into it is because they dont know.

but there has to be a theory.

Black holes have not even been proven to exist! They are but theories.

Stars, however, are NOT theories, although all their workings most definitely are. And we have pictures of Stars Shooting Out Water.

Why?

Well maybe they are the parents of the solar system and where all info put into the solar system from its chemical and nutrient composition, to the planets, to their ecology, all comes from the STARS/SUN! Just maybe, eh?

In a laboratory, Holograms are erected by Lasers/Light!!! Not black holes.

The Lights in the sky look like STARS TO ME.

In a holographic universe, what is a star? Candle light contains millions of nano diamonds and star dust has crystalline nature. Are stars mirrors? Are they imput/exput systems.

Are they phone lines home?

Family on the other side or something?

Lots of questions arise!

Also, if its a matrix. Think. Holograms are definitely technology and creations!

In the matrix what is Time?

What is movement?

What is perception?

What is infinity?

The list goes on and on.

have you been drinking?

Originally posted by lonewolf10
haha, its a brain twister for sure!

i guess the reason that they dont go further into it is because they dont know.

but there has to be a theory.

I can't remember the name of the physicist that came up with this, but I do remember that he claims to have the math all worked out.

I have a thread on the holographic universe in my signature. My son and I simultaneously experienced a guide, he was 18 ish. And shot straight up in shock. We were discussing infinity.


Perception - The reality beyond matter

Stars are the input system. Whether so called black holes connect to them is another matter. This whole universe is a matrix, a holographic interactive construct, and a school.

Originally posted by lonewolf10
i watched a show last night called "the fabric of the universe" and they were saying that our universe may be a holographic projection, and while ive heard this before, i started wondering how this works.

they said that black holes capture information and it becomes encoded on its surface and projects it back out.
sooo, if we are a projection, that must mean that our world must have been consumed by a black hole at one time.

and if that is true, and we are just a projection, then how does the black hole project our Consciousness into this world?

and how does a black hole encode and project anything? a hologram is not a natural phenomenon.

they never address the fact that , if this is true, that it has to be accomplished by an Intelligence somewhere.

and what of the "actual" world that we are a projection of?
were they more "real" than we are?

Firstly, a Black Hole really doesn't "project" data out. It is a phenomenal gravitational trap that even light cannot escape from. This would imply that "information" can fall into a black hole but never escape; i.e, it would be destroyed forever, but...

It is also possible to be attracted towards a black hole and NOT fall all the way in and then to escape the gravitational pull.

This implies that there is a "point of no return" that if you pass it, no matter how powerful or fast you are, you're trapped for ever. At this point, your acceleration due to gravity also exceeds the speed of light (that's why light can't escape either). The name for this point of no return is the "Event Horizon" which sits at a distance (called the Schwarzschild Radius) from the compressed-up singularity in the middle of the black hole.

The Event Horizon, therefore, is like a 2D representation of all the information that has passed through it. It would essentially be like a hologram, encoding the wave functions of what was once 3D in a 2D surface.

Remember how it is possible to almost, but not quite, fall in to a black hole? This leads to the possibility that was explored by Stephen Hawking, and which bears the name of "Hawking Radiation".

We know that sometimes elementary particles just pop into existence randomly in pairs and then these 'opposite' virtual particles usually attract each other and then annihilate back to nothingness again (I won't go into all the theories and proofs of this, you'll have to trust me that it happens). Close to the Event Horizon, one of the virtual particles gets vacuumed away, leaving its opposite unable to annihilate. Of course it is entirely likely that this particle can also fall into the Black Hole but there is a slim margin of possibility that this virtual particle is energetic enough to escape.

In this way, the black hole "evaporates" away by producing (mostly) high energy Gamma and X-rays as Hawking Radiation which is a representation of the antiparticles that pass through the event horizon. Hence the information is not destroyed totally but is represented to the external universe through the Hawking Radiation.

So that sort of explains what they mean by a "hologram" and why it is, actually, an entirely natural process.

Now, a hologram is a very efficient process for storage of information, in that it is true 3D, but stored in 2D. This got theorists to wonder if what we perceive as a multidimensional world, is actually encoded into the substrate of a deeper reality, in more efficient methods (Nature usually seems to come up with solutions that maximise efficiency), like some type of hologram and perhaps even created like a Black Hole creates a holographic image at its Event Horizon. It doesn't mean that this is the only way that we could be in a hologram, just that this explains some things as a metaphor.

Hope this helps somewhat.

I have often wondered if stars are hollow, and that the process of atomic fuel that we record is actually matter being excited and pulled into another dimension through a tiny wormhole, located at the center of the fiery sphere.
The deaths of stars will vary according to where the wormhole is attached and by what enters, some will explode blowing off what is in a sense an event horizon shrouded in a gaseous cloud, others harden sealing the hole with accumulated by-products.
I have always found it hard to believe that a colossal black hole (insignificant compared to the universe) bottle-necking matter in all its variety, remains hidden. The only evidence for these stealthy beasts is a gravitational effect, surely lots of fireworks would be produced before the point of no return for emitted light.

I am still trying to get my head around the holographic theory, and the consequences of this theory to us...not easy for a layman but fun to try.

reply to post by lonewolf10

i watched a show last night called "the fabric of the universe" and they were saying that our universe may be a holographic projection, and while ive heard this before, i started wondering how this works.

It means that the apparent volume of space and the objects within it may be a projection of information that is encoded on its boundary. Obviously, in this view the universe is not infinite.

Imagine the domed interior of a planetarium, with a detailed image of the night sky depicted on it. Now think of that image being projected holographically so that, instead of showing on the inside of the dome in the usual way, it actually occupies the space inside the dome in three dimensions.

When physicists (specifically string theorists) say the universe may be holographic, what they mean is that the mathematics of their theory is compatible with viewing the universe in that way. It doesn't mean that is how the universe really is. This is very important to remember, but popular science articles in the media almost never mention it. They simply write SCIENTISTS SAY UNIVERSE MAY BE A HOLOGRAM and everyone, apart from a few well-informed types who probably didn't need to read the article in the first place, thinks that's it.

Black holes come into the picture because of string theory. The idea is that the contents of the hole may be projected onto the event horizon as energy fluctuations on its 'surface'. I believe this resolves some problems in string theory that otherwise arise with black holes. It's pretty technical stuff – all to do with making the equations come out right, really.

The idea that black holes swallow everything that falls into them is correct, but we now know that they radiate energy as well; this is known as Hawking radiation and yes, it does contain information about what fell into the hole.

To address Unity_99's point: you are right: no-one has ever seen a black hole. And no-one ever will, even though black holes glow faintly in the infrared, because every black hole in the universe is surrounded and obscured by matter being torn apart by tidal forces generated by the hole itself. This creates a spectacular lightshow, which we can see. Gallery of black hole photos at National Geographic.

The theory you are speaking of is the holographic singularity, as it was proposed by Stephen Hawkins. The context of that proposal is that it is supposedly impossible for information to be destroyed... in other words, if everything were to be know about the Universe, its exact condition at any time could be computed from the information it contains.

Hawkins proposed this theory to explain how a black hole could fit with the conservation of information principle. But conservation of information can be shown to be a false theory itself with a simple experiment.

Take a ball and drop it into a funnel. The ball will come to rest at the exact center and bottom of the funnel. No matter where above the funnel it is dropped, it will always come to rest at that location. Therefore, there is no way to know from the present condition of the ball where it came from. Ergo, there is no conservation of information and the very basis upon which Hawkins theory is based is false.

TheRedneck

reply to post by TheRedneck

The theory you are speaking of is the holographic singularity...

There is no singularity. The hologram is contained on the boundary of the universe, which is not a singularity in this theory since physical laws apply to it in the usual way.

as it was proposed by Stephen Hawkins.

The holographic principle is attributed to Gerard t'Hooft, Charles Thorn and Leonard Susskind, not to Stephen Hawking.

The context of that proposal is that it is supposedly impossible for information to be destroyed... in other words, if everything were to be know about the Universe, its exact condition at any time could be computed from the information it contains.

Actually, what can be computed is the wavefunction of the universe, which does not give one 'exact condition' but a huge number of them, some more likely than others but none that is absolutely certain. It is an axiom of quantum mechanics that information cannot be destroyed, but that doesn't mean information is always retrievable. If you burn a book, its contents are theoretically preserved among the ashes and could be reconstructed, but in practice it is impossible.

Gerard t'Hooft thought about Hawking radiation and realized there was a problem with it because the mechanism proposed for returning information to the universe was faulty (just how is very technical and irrelevant to this discussion)

Conservation of information can be shown to be a false theory itself with a simple experiment. Take a ball and drop it into a funnel...

You don't measure the ball, you measure the whole system. The funnel itself will contain traces of the impact of the ball (deformities, temperature variations, etc.) from which its path can be reconstructed.

reply to post by Astyanax

Apparently we are discussing two different theories. The one I thought of reading the OP was Hawkings Paradox. Simply put, it states that information is lost when matter is pulled into a black hole. The problem with that is that information cannot be destroyed due to conservation of information. Enter the Hologram principle, which I will be the first to admit I do not understand, nor wish to understand. It is little more than mathematical tricks based on unproven yet assumed correct principles.

Science is the search for truth, with truth being that which is always accurate. Science is not mathematical tricks and assumptions.

Now, to the specifics:

There is no singularity.

The singularity is a construct as well, although a necessary one to explain the acceleration into a black hole (or into any matter actually). While it is theoretical, it exists as a central concept to actual observable phenomena (gravity).

Actually, what can be computed is the wavefunction of the universe, which does not give one 'exact condition' but a huge number of them, some more likely than others but none that is absolutely certain.

The Heisenberg Uncertainty.

It is an axiom of quantum mechanics that information cannot be destroyed, but that doesn't mean information is always retrievable. If you burn a book, its contents are theoretically preserved among the ashes and could be reconstructed, but in practice it is impossible.

This is where I start rolling my eyes while reading the books.

Of what conceivable use is a theory that states it cannot be relied upon? None. Nada. Zip. Quantum science has taken a turn toward such 'theories', wherein models are substituted for reality instead of seen as representations of reality. Thus we have string theory where we cannot detect strings, information conservation where information can be 'lost' as long as it isn't 'destroyed', dark matter which by definition cannot be detected directly, dark energy which by definition cannot be detected directly, ad infinitum.

None of these concepts advance science; they only advance mathematical exercises in futility.

Mathematics is a tool, a language. It deals in true and false. Once an equation can be shown to be false, it is then of no use and must be discarded. Ergo, if a theory based in mathematics can be shown to be false one single time, that theory is incorrect at worst and incomplete at best. I have shown a simple, practical, easy repeated experiment that shows information conservation to be false.

On to the funnel and ball explanation... the only way deformities can be detected after the funnel and ball have come to a state of rest is if either experienced a deformative force, i.e. a force that exceeds the ability of the material to return to its pre-deformed shape. That is far from a necessary component of the experiment. Thermal residue will return to ambient after a short time. In short, the information needed to determine the original position, acceleration, direction, and any other such aspects of the ball prior to its entering the funnel aperture have been lost and cannot be recovered by any process known to exist. That is destruction of information and renders the conservation of information theory false.

TheRedneck

reply to post by chr0naut


Brilliant explanation.

Just leaves me with one question........are you a particle or theoretical physicist in your "real" life?

Only half joking there, you always give such detailed answers to questions like this............makes me wish i paid attention during physics lessons in my school days!

Originally posted by Flavian
reply to post by chr0naut

 

Brilliant explanation.

Just leaves me with one question........are you a particle or theoretical physicist in your "real" life?

Only half joking there, you always give such detailed answers to questions like this............makes me wish i paid attention during physics lessons in my school days!

Astrophysicist by education but in the cold reality of our modern world (especially in Australia/New Zealand), I chose a commercial rather than an academic path. I work in IT & Management. My current job role is "Senior Business Analyst" which means I keep the servers humming, do the monthly board reports, break-even analyses and write up project plans for the board approve or reject. Never was one for sales (probable Aspergers issue there). Yawn, but it pay the bills.

reply to post by TheRedneck

I sympathise with your feelings, though I do not share them. I enjoyed reading your post, and have given it a star. You write well.

Apparently we are discussing two different theories. The one I thought of (while) reading the OP was Hawking's Paradox. Simply put, it states that information is lost when matter is pulled into a black hole. The problem with that is that information cannot be destroyed... Enter the Hologram principle, which I will be the first to admit I do not understand, nor wish to understand.

Roughly correct. The holographic principle is a development of efforts to resolve the difficulty with black holes. However, when applied to the universe as a whole, there is no singularity. That's enough physics for now.

It is little more than mathematical tricks based on unproven yet assumed correct principles.

All theoretical physics conforms to that description; it has been that way since Newton. We validate a theory by showing that it corresponds to what we observe in nature, and verifying that it makes accurate predictions.

Science is the search for truth, with truth being that which is always accurate. Science is not mathematical tricks and assumptions.

Science does not deal in certainties, only in theories, models and approximations. Newtonian dynamics deals with perfect spheres and dimensionless points, perfectly elastic bodies and frictionless fluids. As you know, none of these actually exist, but we do sums with them and get results approximating the behaviour of imperfect bodies in the real world.

Of what conceivable use is a theory that states it cannot be relied upon?

Of what use is Newtonian dynamics, which is completely unreliable except under a very narrow set of conditions?

Quantum science has taken a turn toward such 'theories', wherein models are substituted for reality instead of seen as representations of reality. Thus we have string theory where we cannot detect strings, information conservation where information can be 'lost' as long as it isn't 'destroyed', dark matter which by definition cannot be detected directly, dark energy which by definition cannot be detected directly, ad infinitum.

All science substitutes models for reality.

String theory, dark matter and dark energy do not arise from quantum mechanics. String theories attempt to marry quantum mechanics and relativity, but quantum mechanics itself gets on fine without them. Dark matter and dark energy are postulates devised to explain what astronomers see through their telescopes.

The phrase 'cannot be detected directly' is interesting. What would you say constitutes 'direct detection'? Certainly not vision – all your brain is detecting is photons bouncing off an object and landing on your retina. Dark matter and dark energy – whatever they are – are known to exist because of their visible effects. In this sense, they are no different from ordinary matter and energy.

None of these concepts advance science; they only advance mathematical exercises in futility.

Indeed not. You forget that there is something that needs to be explained. Asserting that string theories, dark matter and dark energy are futile theorising does not exorcise the phenomena they are invoked to explain.

Once an equation can be shown to be false, it is then of no use and must be discarded. Ergo, if a theory based in mathematics can be shown to be false one single time, that theory is incorrect at worst and incomplete at best.

Mathematics deals not with truth and falsehood, but with abstract ideas, theoretical models and deductive logic. See my comments on Newtonian dynamics above.

On to the funnel and ball explanation... the only way deformities can be detected... if either experienced a deformative force, i.e. a force that exceeds the ability of the material to return to its pre-deformed shape... Thermal residue will return to ambient after a short time. In short, the information... (has) been lost and cannot be recovered by any process known to exist. That... renders the conservation of information theory false.

No object is perfectly elastic; therefore no object perfectly recovers its shape following an impact. 'Thermal residues' do not 'return to ambient'; they raise the ambient temperature by a fixed amount, increasing (for example) the intensity of Brownian motion in the surrounding air molecules. You'll have to do a lot better than that to disprove the conservation principle, but I'll save you the trouble; you can't. Surely you don't think theoretical physicists are so naive as not to have considered such Montessori objections?

Experimentally, quantum mechanics checks out 100%. I know conservatives hate uncertainty, but I'm afraid you'll have to live with Heisenberg's!

The Star Ocean series explained it very well I think (if I understand it correctly) but I won't go into details for spoilers. The author of the game is seriously involved into these things and when you play the game all you can think about are well.... I guess you'd have to play the game to find out. I'd recommend Star Ocean 3, it was amazing and possibly the best of the series and it best describes what I was trying to hint at earlier.

reply to post by TheRedneck

Take a ball and drop it into a funnel. The ball will come to rest at the exact center and bottom of the funnel. No matter where above the funnel it is dropped, it will always come to rest at that location. Therefore, there is no way to know from the present condition of the ball where it came from. Ergo, there is no conservation of information and the very basis upon which Hawkins theory is based is false.

Not quite sure that is entirely true...just a thought here...Since the ball was dropped ...at the point where the ball was dropped there would be a disturbance in the field of where it had previously resided...so no matter where you originally dropped the ball from you will know it's location.

Just as i am typing on this keyboard even though my approach to each key maybe slightly different...it has already been registered as a disturbance of all molecules that i bump into....so each and every position of my fingers can be registered.