Occupy: A point we possibly need to move on from

reply to post by petrus4


One thing I've never really grasped is how environmentalism is claimed to be a 'liberal' issue when, in my 'fiscally conservative/socially liberal' view the environment is a human issue. We only have one planet to live on, and unless we seriously start to reassess our impact on the Earth our ancestors are going to be stuck on a world much worse and less wonderful than the one we currently enjoy.

I agree on corporate greed, to a degree. If the person is question is doing their weath accumulation in an unethical or illegal way, they should be arrested and their assets seized. However, I also believe in an honest days pay for an honest days work... if that person is seen as being worth $500000 a year or more in the eyes of the board, and if that person has done their job in an honest and estemable manner then I say 'good for them.'

Thanks for answering my question. If only the rest of the Occupy people could put their thoughts and feelings as coherently as you I think the movement could accomplish far more than it has.

Originally posted by Dreine
reply to post by petrus4

 

One thing I've never really grasped is how environmentalism is claimed to be a 'liberal' issue when, in my 'fiscally conservative/socially liberal' view the environment is a human issue. We only have one planet to live on, and unless we seriously start to reassess our impact on the Earth our ancestors are going to be stuck on a world much worse and less wonderful than the one we currently enjoy.

It's good that you care about it. Someone needs to.

I agree on corporate greed, to a degree. If the person is question is doing their weath accumulation in an unethical or illegal way, they should be arrested and their assets seized. However, I also believe in an honest days pay for an honest days work... if that person is seen as being worth $500000 a year or more in the eyes of the board, and if that person has done their job in an honest and estemable manner then I say 'good for them.'

I think the housing foreclosures need to stop; but at the same time, I also think people need to be a lot more economically responsible. I don't use a mobile phone, and I'm debt free. I don't know anyone else, I don't think, who can make either of those claims.

Thanks for answering my question. If only the rest of the Occupy people could put their thoughts and feelings as coherently as you I think the movement could accomplish far more than it has.

I don't think I could really be called one of the "Occupy people," as such. You can think of me, where Occupy are concerned, as an interested and largely impartial observer. Being impartial means that I often say things which Occupiers themselves don't like.

reply to post by Kali74

Anyway... my whole point is, if you want the discussion to move beyond "yes they are/no we're not" perhaps you should stop trying to place labels, stop trying to catch us "red" handed...

I smell a bit of hypocrisy here, Kali. You blasted Petrus for labeling people then you throw up a picture FULL OF LABELS and explain where people fit in.

A person being a Communist is not a crime nor anything to be ashamed of, it isn't something you admit... it is something you state.

It should be a crime…it certainly borders on treasonous behavior IMO because it’s a violation of trust and allegiance to the sovereignty of our nation.

David Rockefeller once admitted that communism was created by the elites as a tool of despotism. Therefore anyone who promotes it is clearly in favor of autocratic government. That’s certainly not the American way. Any American who espouses communism in this country should rightfully be shunned. Occupy should distance itself from these fools if they ever want to be taken seriously.

And that is your pattern, I see right through you. You play up one side trying to fit in then something happens and you flip and start playing up the other.

I don’t often agree with you these days but you’re certainly right about this. Petrus loves to play both sides and appears to instigate conflict between people of two opposing views.

I think OWS IS the point that everyone needs to move on from. They are fading away and in the end none of it mattered. It is clear that forming a group with no clear stated goal or purpose is ineffective. They should just start a coherent movement.

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by Kali74

 

And that is your pattern, I see right through you. You play up one side trying to fit in then something happens and you flip and start playing up the other.

I don’t often agree with you these days but you’re certainly right about this. Petrus loves to play both sides and appears to instigate conflict between people of two opposing views.

Coming from you, this is somewhat rich. Nobody can accuse you of playing both sides; but trolling, on the other hand?

I also don't believe that I do instigate conflict. The two sides already present here, do that perfectly adequately by themselves. You don't need my help.

reply to post by seabag

I smell a bit of hypocrisy here, Kali. You blasted Petrus for labeling people then you throw up a picture FULL OF LABELS and explain where people fit in.

No I did not. I explained that here's a whole lot to the Left besides Communism and the difference between despotic communism and anarcho-communism. Then I explained my position.

It should be a crime…it certainly borders on treasonous behavior IMO because it’s a violation of trust and allegiance to the sovereignty of our nation.

No it should not be. The biggest threat to any Sovereignty is Reactionism which is something you participate in quite indulgently.

David Rockefeller once admitted that communism was created by the elites as a tool of despotism. Therefore anyone who promotes it is clearly in favor of autocratic government. That’s certainly not the American way. Any American who espouses communism in this country should rightfully be shunned. Occupy should distance itself from these fools if they ever want to be taken seriously.

And yet again your ignorance shows. There is value in what they say. It is said that there is nothing new under the sun and I believe that to be true for the most part. Ideologies are born out of human personality traits that we all fall under. A mistake you Reactionaries constantly make is to not take what is valuable from failed ideologies and working them in new ways. Nor do you ever learn the lessons that brought those ideologies to revolutionary proportions. Already your ilk are on the path to armed revolution, when all peaceful options haven't been exhausted yet.

Occupy should distance itself from these fools if they ever want to be taken seriously.

The only fools I see are...

reply to post by DavidWillts


Do you ever have anything original to say?
This is practically copy/pasted from September 2011.

reply to post by petrus4

Coming from you, this is somewhat rich. Nobody can accuse you of playing both sides; but trolling, on the other hand?

I have chosen sides and labeled myself a conservative. I don’t play the middle or work the room to stir debate, I stand on my principles and I’m unwavering. You might call that “trolling” but I call it “consistency”.

I also don't believe that I do instigate conflict. The two sides already present here, do that perfectly adequately by themselves. You don't need my help.

That’s the way I see it, and apparently others do too.

It was just my opinion, bud. I do enjoy your threads and posts though. You often force me rethink my position but usually it just reinforces the beliefs I already had!

S&F Sir!

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by DavidWillts

 

Do you ever have anything original to say?
This is practically copy/pasted from September 2011.

No back then i was saying how ineffective they ARE now it is how ineffective they WERE because it is pretty much a dead movement.

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by seabag

 

And yet again your ignorance shows. There is value in what they say. It is said that there is nothing new under the sun and I believe that to be true for the most part. Ideologies are born out of human personality traits that we all fall under. A mistake you Reactionaries constantly make is to not take what is valuable from failed ideologies and working them in new ways. Nor do you ever learn the lessons that brought those ideologies to revolutionary proportions. Already your ilk are on the path to armed revolution, when all peaceful options haven't been exhausted yet.

I can actually agree with this, to a certain extent. However, if recycling Communism is the goal, I would strongly recommend, thoroughly making sure that the corpse is genuinely dead, first.

reply to post by Kali74

No I did not. I explained that here's a whole lot to the Left besides Communism and the difference between despotic communism and anarcho-communism. Then I explained my position.

There sure is a lot more to the left than communists….but all roads lead to Rome.

No it should not be. The biggest threat to any Sovereignty is Reactionism which is something you participate in quite indulgently.

It’s not reactionary to want to rid the country of people who violate allegiance to the principles of our democratic republic; it’s necessary. I took an oath...

I, Seabag, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

And yet again your ignorance shows.

That’s not civil discourse, Kali….calm down!

There is value in what they say. It is said that there is nothing new under the sun and I believe that to be true for the most part. Ideologies are born out of human personality traits that we all fall under. A mistake you Reactionaries constantly make is to not take what is valuable from failed ideologies and working them in new ways. Nor do you ever learn the lessons that brought those ideologies to revolutionary proportions. Already your ilk are on the path to armed revolution, when all peaceful options haven't been exhausted yet.

Why emulate a failed system?

And with regard to revolution, the only people on the streets sparking revolutionary action (many in the name of communism) is the occupy crowd.

The only fools I see are...

Seabag et al ???

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by petrus4

 

Coming from you, this is somewhat rich. Nobody can accuse you of playing both sides; but trolling, on the other hand?

I have chosen sides and labeled myself a conservative. I don’t play the middle or work the room to stir debate, I stand on my principles and I’m unwavering. You might call that “trolling” but I call it “consistency”.

I think there are times when we both (and several others here as well, to be fair) poke sticks in between the bars of Kali's cage, simply because it tends to be so much fun to watch the resulting fireworks.

It was just my opinion, bud. I do enjoy your threads and posts though. You often force me rethink my position but usually it just reinforces the beliefs I already had!

S&F Sir!

Thank you! I enjoy watching your antics with a few other people here I admit, as well.

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by Kali74

 

I, Seabag, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

If only more people took that oath as seriously. I applaud this, seabag; and your motivations where Occupy are concerned, now do make a lot more sense to me.

reply to post by petrus4

If only more people took that oath as seriously. I applaud this, seabag; and your motivations where Occupy are concerned, now do make a lot more sense to me.

Uhmmm….thanks?

I’m waiting for the other shoe to drop!

I do take my oath seriously and I, too, wish more people took the same oath. Maybe we wouldn’t have communists and socialists taking over our once great country while the rest of America sleeps. Occupy will never be taken seriously by the vast majority of our country until they drop the radicals and get real.

Whether you believe the official 9/11 story or not, we saw the true color of America on Sept 12th. There were no political parties, no races and no religions that day; only Americans. 90%+ of the country came together for a brief time and we were 'America' during those days and weeks following 9/11. I’d bet anything the majority of the current occupiers would completely disagree with that statement…they hate American values and allegiance to this country which is why America disapproves of THEM!

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by petrus4

 

If only more people took that oath as seriously. I applaud this, seabag; and your motivations where Occupy are concerned, now do make a lot more sense to me.

Uhmmm….thanks?

I’m waiting for the other shoe to drop!

I do take my oath seriously and I, too, wish more people took the same oath. Maybe we wouldn’t have communists and socialists taking over our once great country while the rest of America sleeps. Occupy will never be taken seriously by the vast majority of our country until they drop the radicals and get real.

That is what I meant. However, this leads to me making statements where Kali ends up viewing me as the enemy, because I do tend to believe that Communism is something non-American, and largely originated in Europe.

So you might be able to see now, why I get accused of playing both sides. I genuinely do agree with some of what both sides say. Yes I agree with you that Occupy are largely Communist...it's just that I also agree with Occupiers, that corporate greed is a genuinely serious problem, and that we are wrecking the environment as well. I also, however, tend to agree with you, that Communism isn't the best way to solve those problems.

I think before we criticise Occupy for having adopted Communism to the degree that they have, however, we need to acknowledge that probably the main reason why they've done that, is because after looking around, they probably couldn't see anything else which might provide a solution. I'll admit that I can't.

I think that's true of a lot of people. They're not Marxist because they necessarily want to be. They are simply because that's all they've been taught, so it's all they know.

reply to post by seabag

It’s not reactionary to want to rid the country of people who violate allegiance to the principles of our democratic republic; it’s necessary. I took an oath...

It's tragic that you see it that way. Most modern communists (if any) do not want a communist government. I value the Constitution and so do they, as much as you do if not more so. Your service is appreciated but don't try justify your implied statement, that you're more committed than I or anyone else, with "I took an oath".

That’s not civil discourse, Kali….calm down!

What did you expect when not only did you not return the respect I gave you but you spit in my face on top of it?

Why emulate a failed system?

I'm pretty sure I write in a comprehensible way. You don't have to emulate a failed system to learn from it or learn what did work within it.

And with regard to revolution, the only people on the streets sparking revolutionary action (many in the name of communism) is the occupy crowd.

Many of your posts show otherwise.

reply to post by Kali74
Back up the truck!

Communism is the antithesis to the Constitution.

How can you reconcile the two?

Originally posted by beezzer

Originally posted by jacktherer
As for ows being capable of positive ends I would assert that the movement has already done several postive things such as bring communities together for various things like foreclosure defense, sustainable farming/agriculture, and fighting institutionalized racism and classism and a ishton of other isms. And I doubt that this will stop no matter how much we're clubbed or sprayed

Forclosure defense, okay, I get that. Sustainable farming/ag? Okay, I like that.

Fighting institutionalised racism? Groovy.

Fighting classism? What the frack?

How can you fight classism when you initiate it by defining yourself as the 99% vs the 1%?

Thats actually a point that myself and many occupiers ive spoken with agree on. The 'we are the 99%' thing does its job well as far as slogans go ya know summarizing the main problem very briefly but most of us agree that its very dangerous because it encourages division among mankind I.e the 100%. Many upper class folks, though far from '1%ers' associate themselves as the 1% and therefore as occupys enemy when in reality we dont hate everyone whos doing well for themselves at all we need them. Our enemy is not the wealthy but those 'supper wealthy' that dont give a fcuk about the cost to society and the environment of obtaining/creating that wealth I.e the military industrial complex, the federal reserve and other large private banking institutionse, the oil industry, the food industry (monsanto etc) the prison industrial complex, etc

Seems to me that you're enhancing the divide.

reply to post by jacktherer
Most people could care less about anything except feeding their families, paying the rent, and living their lives.

And that includes the 1%.

Injstead of vilifying them, why not embrace them?

double

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