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I think, therefore I AM

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posted on Jul, 12 2012 @ 11:26 AM
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reply to post by TheSubversiveOne
 


I will keep my answer simple here...

You say it is impossible to be aware without a body. Ever heard of ESP? The five senses are not the only ones that exist...otherwise, people would not be able to see spirits, or communicate with them.

Let me guess, you're going to argue with that now, too.


Suffice it to say that we CAN be aware without the use of our body. In fact, people have felt things happening to OTHER peoples' bodies, while their own body remained undisturbed. Additionally, I myself have witnessed a man being able to tell things without any use of his five senses. America's Got Talent has some very amazing people on it.

Perhaps you should stick to topics you are familiar with, or educated on.




posted on Jul, 12 2012 @ 11:32 AM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by TheSubversiveOne
 


I will keep my answer simple here...

You say it is impossible to be aware without a body. Ever heard of ESP? The five senses are not the only ones that exist...otherwise, people would not be able to see spirits, or communicate with them.

Let me guess, you're going to argue with that now, too.


Suffice it to say that we CAN be aware without the use of our body. In fact, people have felt things happening to OTHER peoples' bodies, while their own body remained undisturbed. Additionally, I myself have witnessed a man being able to tell things without any use of his five senses. America's Got Talent has some very amazing people on it.

Perhaps you should stick to topics you are familiar with, or educated on.


No need for ad hominem sir. It shows a simple mind.

Were those people still in their body when those things were experienced? If they weren't I would then agree with you.



posted on Jul, 12 2012 @ 12:52 PM
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reply to post by TheSubversiveOne
 


A good question, but no cigar. See, in order for your body to count, it has to be your body doing the interacting. In these cases which I mentioned, the body should never have responded...which implies that something ELSE responded, and the body simply expressed it because that's how we're used to processing it.



posted on Jul, 12 2012 @ 01:02 PM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by TheSubversiveOne
 


A good question, but no cigar. See, in order for your body to count, it has to be your body doing the interacting. In these cases which I mentioned, the body should never have responded...which implies that something ELSE responded, and the body simply expressed it because that's how we're used to processing it.


So these people were deceased and without a body when practicing ESP or Astral Projection? Without a body, this would be impossible. They wouldn't be alive or conscious, without the body. How can one astral project without a body to astral project from?



posted on Jul, 12 2012 @ 01:08 PM
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reply to post by TheSubversiveOne
 


Have you ever known your body to respond when someone else was touched without your knowledge? I have seen it happen. Have you ever known someone to be completely blind, and take three cards and describe what was on them? He never saw the drawings, never heard anything or was told anything about the cards after the pictures were drawn. Yet he described them. I watched it happen.

Have you ever seen a person describe another's journey on a highway, despite the fact that it took place miles away while the watcher was dozing? I have. I've seen all of these. In all of these cases, not a single sense was used. The body was virtually useless, except in anchoring them to this world. As I said, the soul is housed in the body, and with body is required to anchor the soul to this realm. The soul powers the consciousness. The five senses are not necessary for every function of the human mind. Believe it or not, the five senses are actually among the most limiting. They aid in survival, but not true sight. Not in true understanding.

And that is where we all fall short.

edit on 12-7-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 12 2012 @ 01:35 PM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by TheSubversiveOne
 


Have you ever known your body to respond when someone else was touched without your knowledge? I have seen it happen. Have you ever known someone to be completely blind, and take three cards and describe what was on them? He never saw the drawings, never heard anything or was told anything about the cards after the pictures were drawn. Yet he described them. I watched it happen.

Have you ever seen a person describe another's journey on a highway, despite the fact that it took place miles away while the watcher was dozing? I have. I've seen all of these. In all of these cases, not a single sense was used. The body was virtually useless, except in anchoring them to this world. As I said, the soul is housed in the body, and with body is required to anchor the soul to this realm. The soul powers the consciousness. The five senses are not necessary for every function of the human mind. Believe it or not, the five senses are actually among the most limiting. They aid in survival, but not true sight. Not in true understanding.

And that is where we all fall short.

edit on 12-7-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)


I'm enjoying this debate.

I'm not talking strictly about senses. I mean the entire body. Everything you described is not possible without at least some functions of the body working in harmony. You said you seen some one describing another's journey on a highway or something. Him describing and you seeing him describe it are because you have a body—the senses to perceive it and the brain to compute it. Everything you mentioned: touch, knowledge, mind, blindness, journeys, highways, cards, true sight, everything you wrote and any idea you've ever concieved is possible because you have a body. In this case, the body is not useless—far from it.

The soul is not housed in the body. The soul is the body. The mind is the body. The consciousness is the body. These words are used to describe the same thing, and neither of them can logically exist outside the context of the body. If you were a soul without a body, somehow alive despite the lack of organs and skin, you wouldn't be able to navigate beyond a darkened abyss of nothing.

We of course can agree to disagree, but please remember the ideas you pose are paradoxical and illogical.



posted on Jul, 12 2012 @ 01:39 PM
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reply to post by TheSubversiveOne
 


What on earth makes you think the physical realm is the only one? If that is your belief, then I understand your confusion. However, there are metaphysical realms where sensation is also possible...but it is not experienced with the physical flesh. It is experienced with the mind.


The soul is the body. The mind is the body.


Then explain to me why one does not disappear when one dies. Explain to me how the body can be broken and the mind remains intact.
edit on 12-7-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 12 2012 @ 01:55 PM
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What on earth makes you think the physical realm is the only one? If that is your belief, then I understand your confusion. However, there are metaphysical realms where sensation is also possible...but it is not experienced with the physical flesh. It is experienced with the mind.

Common sense. Any metaphysical realm, idea etc. cannot be realized without the body. Hence, the mind is the body. There's nothing you mention that cannot be attributed to the body.



Then explain to me why one does not disappear when one dies. Explain to me how the body can be broken and the mind remains intact.

The mind doesn't remain in tact. Once the support functions of the body stop, everything begins to die. Once death is achieved, decomposition comes next. The bodily energies go where ever the body is at final rest.
edit on 12-7-2012 by TheSubversiveOne because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 12 2012 @ 02:11 PM
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reply to post by TheSubversiveOne
 



The mind doesn't remain in tact. Once the support functions of the body stop, everything begins to die.


Really? Do you know the Australian who could be the poster child for "f***ed"? He literally has little tiny flipper arms and little tiny flipper legs/feet. If it has been anyone with less will power, he would be bedridden and probably suicidal for the rest of his natural life.

For such a crippled body, he should be swimming and going to shows and talking to audiences and having such a blast in life. If the body is truly the mind, he should be mentally retarded. I have rarely ever seen such a spirited, intelligent, and vibrant human being. And no, you can't argue that it wouldn't LITERALLY be like that, because there is no other way for the body to be the mind. Either they are synonymous, or they aren't.


Once death is achieved, decomposition comes next. The bodily energies go where ever the body is at final rest.


Have you seen the recent articles regarding the woman who actually rose from the dead IN THE MORGUE? Someone actually borrowed it, inserting it into a thread recounting over 5 different cases, just off hand, of people rising from the dead. Officially declared dead, then coming back to life.

The fact is, no one really knows exactly what the mind is. Are you so intelligent, so educated, that you know for a fact what hundreds of very well-paid doctors and researchers worldwide do not? No one has the mind figured out. It's as much a mystery as God itself.

If you desire more proof, a more eloquently worded argument, then try this article, written by a psychologist:

Mind And Body



edit on 12-7-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 12 2012 @ 02:15 PM
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reply to post by TheSubversiveOne
 





The soul is not housed in the body. The soul is the body. The mind is the body. The consciousness is the body. These words are used to describe the same thing, and neither of them can logically exist outside the context of the body. If you were a soul without a body, somehow alive despite the lack of organs and skin, you wouldn't be able to navigate beyond a darkened abyss of nothing.


The soul is housed in the body. The body is just a suit in which to experience life in, just like an astronaut experiences space in. Once you die (shed the garment - body), you still continue on living. This is why many are shocked to know that they are still alive, after the body has died.



posted on Jul, 12 2012 @ 02:17 PM
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reply to post by jhill76
 



This is why many are shocked to know that they are still alive, after the body has died.


Ehhhh..."alive" implies a sort of awareness. Only the trained or gifted are really aware at any point during the dying process, and it really brings that gift out in them after they return.

Other than that, I wouldn't say you're ALIVE after death, you're just...transformed. Into what? That's the question.



posted on Jul, 12 2012 @ 02:30 PM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by TheSubversiveOne
 



The mind doesn't remain in tact. Once the support functions of the body stop, everything begins to die.


Really? Do you know the Australian who could be the poster child for "f***ed"? He literally has little tiny flipper arms and little tiny flipper legs/feet. If it has been anyone with less will power, he would be bedridden and probably suicidal for the rest of his natural life.

For such a crippled body, he should be swimming and going to shows and talking to audiences and having such a blast in life. If the body is truly the mind, he should be mentally retarded. I have rarely ever seen such a spirited, intelligent, and vibrant human being. And no, you can't argue that it wouldn't LITERALLY be like that, because there is no other way for the body to be the mind. Either they are synonymous, or they aren't.


Once death is achieved, decomposition comes next. The bodily energies go where ever the body is at final rest.


Have you seen the recent articles regarding the woman who actually rose from the dead IN THE MORGUE? Someone actually borrowed it, inserting it into a thread recounting over 5 different cases, just off hand, of people rising from the dead. Officially declared dead, then coming back to life.

The fact is, no one really knows exactly what the mind is. Are you so intelligent, so educated, that you know for a fact what hundreds of very well-paid doctors and researchers worldwide do not? No one has the mind figured out. It's as much a mystery as God itself.

If you desire more proof, a more eloquently worded argument, then try this article, written by a psychologist:

Mind And Body



edit on 12-7-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)


You're still assuming the Cartesian mind exists separate from the body. I'm saying the cartesian mind doesn't exist at all. His brain is a part of the body and not affected. If his brain was affected, yes he may be mentally handicapped; but since it isn't, he is still just as capable. His brain is a part of the body.

The mind is merely an abstract word used to describe the same thing—the body. Not literally "the mind is the body." In other words, the mind doesn't exist. You can call the body whatever you want: mind, soul, spirit, consciousness, but its still the harmony of the whole body in which you speak of unknowingly and ignorantly.

If you feel you cannot argue your way out of this, at least consider it rather than discount it due to a rash emotional response. Look at it logically rather than illogically. Try reaching a conclusion on your own rather than searching for someone to protect your ideal.



posted on Jul, 12 2012 @ 03:54 PM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 


My "god" doesn't require praise, just like any other parent. Parents usually prefer to see their kids become grandly successful, because that means they succeeded in raising them right. That your god requires worship and praise, and gets JEALOUS when we seek to match him, is a sad, sad thing...


Brother, I'm sorry that you are unable to give thanks. My Father has ordained a far grander story than my earthly parents could've ever imagined. Too, my parents were jealous for me, for my life, and health, and safety. I take great comfort and even joy in that My Father is so jealous to love me. In Jesus name.


I firmly believe no omniscient, omnipotent being would want to be worshipped by its creations.

Praise and thanks are only an appropriate product of being a creation who loves and is loved. Doesn't sound like you believe true love exists?


That's called tyranny and an egomaniac.

What my parents, what our leaders, what you are doing is tyranny. My Father rescued me from fear of death and from your perverse sense of authority.



I will never worship nor respect such a being, regardless of whether it gave me life or not.


Don't get it twisted little homie, one day every eye will see and every knee will bow. I hate to see your mouth get you caught up in foolishly denying the Father before His face when He's offering you love and forgiveness for pretty much acknowledgment.


A father who does not care for his children is not a father at all.

You must be talking about your god who doesn't care about worship or his children to teach them to be like him. Or has your father taught you just that, destruction?


You call this world taken care of? You call this species well-raised? No. This is pitiful. I know men who are not immortal, men who can only lift 150 pounds, men who are average in stature and whose blood runs red and fast when they are cut. These are mortal, weak, sinful men...and they are better fathers than your god. And your god wants my veneration, my worship? Never.


I'm sad you feel that way but you aren't talking about Jesus or my Father.


That is where I stand on the matter. I do not mean to offend, I merely wish to show you what your god is compared to the men of this earth...the men he has abandoned to the cruelties of fate and other men.

your God may be at the mercy of Fate by My Father decides fate. I understand how the world feels about my Father and Jesus but brother, Jesus loves me. I shall not be moved.


And if your book were not telling you to worship that god on pain of eternal damnation, I think you would feel the same way I do.

I accepted Christ publicly when I was 11. I've been looking for him since I was 7.

Was it because I'm afraid of fire and eternal damnation or was it because i bear the scars in my very flesh from a bloody violent childhood? You don't know me, and you don't know just why I love Jesus so.

We can't put ourselves in each others shoes, but we can consider Jesus.


If your god does exist, if he does rule this world...on the day I stand face to face with him, it will not be him rejecting me. It will be me denying him.


Brother, don't judge yourself so. Even unto the very last day grace is offered and even past then I will hope for you. Only ask and you'll be forgiven.


And if you have nothing more to say, that is where I will leave it. And note: I spoke of your god. I said nothing of the living, loving essence - the CONSCIOUSNESS - that I believe in.


Well I explained how My Father, I Am that I Am, is much more than just consciousness. So maybe next time don't project your god's flaws onto my Father's Word.




openly blaspheming the existence of the "I Am" who you quoted.


I currently sit somewhere in America. I am subject to the 1st amendment, which says I can blaspheme all I want. It's called "freedom of speech", and "freedom of religion". I am not stopping you from worship, I am simply questioning your deity. I do not mean to offend, I am being honest.


I'll tell you son, blaspheming the name of God is wrong because God says so, not because it was legislated by men. Even still, I and my Father and Jesus would all forgive you even for blasphemy against our Father. I will, I do.

I hope you have a wonderful and uplifting day too brother; one where our Father reveals himself to you heart.


edit on 12-7-2012 by HeFrippedMeOff because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 12 2012 @ 04:11 PM
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reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 



Brother, I'm sorry that you are unable to give thanks.


Oh, I am appreciative. If there is anything I am unable to give thanks for, it's what mankind has done with this beautiful world. However, "appreciation" and "servitude" do not equate in my mind. One can simply follow the rules and be thankful, rather than constantly kowtowing.


Praise and thanks are only an appropriate product of being a creation who loves and is loved. Doesn't sound like you believe true love exists?


I believe in true love. I think it is slowly being poisoned by consumerism though. Again, praise is not servitude.


My Father rescued me from fear of death and from your perverse sense of authority.


Thank you, you've touched on a very good point. Fear of death often leads to a need for a god. I don't fear death. I don't believe death is the end.


You must be talking about your god who doesn't care about worship or his children to teach them to be like him.


I spoke of the one I read about in the Bible.


I'm sad you feel that way but you aren't talking about Jesus or my Father.


Oh, I am indeed. You have been taught to accept these things as appropriate, but they are not. You shouldn't settle.


I shall not be moved.


I am aware of this. The most ignorant are the ones who refuse to listen.


I accepted Christ publicly when I was 11. I've been looking for him since I was 7.


I'm told it's a mature, adult decision. Is that what passes for a "mature and informed decision" in your church?


Brother, don't judge yourself so. Even unto the very last day grace is offered and even past then I will hope for you. Only ask and you'll be forgiven.


I require no one's forgiveness but my own.


Well I explained how My Father, I Am that I Am, is much more than just consciousness. So maybe next time don't project your god's flaws onto my Father's Word.


That's your understanding of it...which, I might add, is a finite grasp of an infinite concept. Which means you know less than one letter of over a quadrillion books that would comprise the very beginning of the knowledge that defines the precise nature of Source. And these flaws I speak of, were realized by READING your Bible, and hearing the lessons that were taught.

I have never known anyone to express love by killing perfectly healthy and normal people. I have never known anyone to kill someone simply for disobeying. And you call it love? You call it mercy? So be it. If that is your understanding, I wish you the best with it.


blaspheming the name of God is wrong because God says so, not because it was legislated by men.


The record of that rule was written by a man, and you can never prove it was inspired by God.


I hope you have a wonderful and uplifting day to brother; one where our Father reveals himself to you heart.


And I hope that someday, you will understand just how little you really know the universe. Until then, have fun.



posted on Jul, 12 2012 @ 05:06 PM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 


Scientifically, from the moment we open our eyes at birth we are considered alive and conscious. Are we not?

However, it is not until somewhere around the age of three years old that we become self-aware.

Self-awareness is the part inside everyone that screams, I AM, not consciousness.

Your precious science says so. Logic says so. Reason says so. Own up to the reality of Jesus and the faith of the martyrs already.



posted on Jul, 12 2012 @ 06:45 PM
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reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff
 


If we are not self-aware, at least at a basic level, from birth...then why do we cry out from hunger, from pain, from discomfort?

To not be self-aware is to not know hunger or pain or discomfort.


Your precious science says so. Logic says so. Reason says so. Own up to the reality of Jesus and the faith of the martyrs already.


Just because you say they say so, doesn't mean they do. And peer pressure will not force me to accept the thus-far invalid as valid.
edit on 12-7-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 12 2012 @ 09:53 PM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by troubleshooter
 

As a very wise man said, when someone asked if they had a soul: "If you didn't have a soul, why would you worry about it?"

If there was no Ravenous Bugbladder Beast of Traal, why would you worry about it?

Besides the 'soul' is from the Greek psuche from which we get Psychology...
...which consists of the study of consciousness, thoughts, emotions, behaviour.

I don't worry about 'soul' or 'body' because I have one of each of those...
...it is 'spirit' that should be our main concern...
...because most people confuse 'spirit' with 'soul' (like you did)...
...most people therefore don't even know they have one...
...and if they did know they had one wouldn't know what it's for anyway.



posted on Jul, 12 2012 @ 10:08 PM
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Interesting "thoughts"....."I am that I am." God. "I think, therefore, I am (cogito, ergo sum)." Descartes. To which we could add the words of James in the New Testament, "As a man thinketh, so he is." God is indeed thought. He is first thought (or cause) and is more than that....He is thought manifested. Someone started a recent thread on favorite quotes and (altho I have many), I posted the Rene Descartes quote....interesting.



posted on Jul, 13 2012 @ 09:52 AM
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reply to post by CosmicCitizen
 




To which we could add the words of James in the New Testament, "As a man thinketh, so he is." God is indeed thought.


It just so happens that this particular verse was warning about people who had evil in their hearts and that they were evil.

Evil thoughts do not originate from God.



posted on Jul, 13 2012 @ 09:58 AM
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Originally posted by troubleshooter

If there was no Ravenous Bugbladder Beast of Traal, why would you worry about it?

Besides the 'soul' is from the Greek psuche from which we get Psychology...
...which consists of the study of consciousness, thoughts, emotions, behaviour.

I don't worry about 'soul' or 'body' because I have one of each of those...
...it is 'spirit' that should be our main concern...
...because most people confuse 'spirit' with 'soul' (like you did)...
...most people therefore don't even know they have one...
...and if they did know they had one wouldn't know what it's for anyway.


You make a very good point. I need to remember this one. I always think of the spirit as residing in the soul and have always used the term soul, when I should be using the term spirit.



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