How could the first living cell have evolved?

reply to post by Aim64C


Poor show AIM64C, the same vague assertions and, as hard as it is to believe, even more whimsical driveway stories!

I'm beginning to believe that you think your colourfull driveway stories might be the quality, peer reviewed articles that we are looking for. Here's a hint, rather than using your imagination for these articles, try looking in the Harvard Science Review, or Nature, or Biology.

If you can't do, just admit it, and then we can put this argument to rest. Please admit that your belief in a designer is at best based on creationist propaganda, or at worst based on your own fear of the unknown.

I am begging to be proved wrong. Show us these published, peer reviewed articles that back up your story!

It is time to put up or shut up!

reply to post by bias12


why didnt you reply to any of my other points in my last post?

reply to post by ImaFungi


I don't feel like you raised anything else that was worth discussing again, and, you use a strange punctuation thing that makes it difficult to get through when you post as a block of text. It's like .,,,.,,,. what is that?

reply to post by bias12


its my way of spacing thoughts,,, and making sure you are actually thinking about what i am saying,,, i think i raised a lot of good points,, too challenging for you to answer i bet,


and you say worth discussing again,, it was all new information,,, also ignore the punctuation its the words that count isnt it? did you read what i wrote and cant come up with an intelligent response because it is conflicting with your faith and beliefs and world view?

I would really appreciate if you responded to all the other sentences in that post besides the 2 vague and arbitrary ones you went for.....

and after that let me know if this sums up your side of the argument,,

,,, what we are as humans,, the mental skills we poses is whats known as intelligence,.,,.. nothing does or can exist which contains more of this brand of intelligence,,, and anything that contains similarities to this intelligence but on relatively smaller scales ( like animals) are not intelligent ( because they are not intelligent like us) including humans themselves, whom a large amount can be considered un intelligent,.,.,,.

Originally posted by ImaFungi

and after that let me know if this sums up your side of the argument,,

,,, what we are as humans,, the mental skills we poses is whats known as intelligence,.,,.. nothing does or can exist which contains more of this brand of intelligence,,, and anything that contains similarities to this intelligence but on relatively smaller scales ( like animals) are not intelligent ( because they are not intelligent like us) including humans themselves, whom a large amount can be considered un intelligent,.,.,,.

It does not sum up my point of view, where did you get any of this from? When have I ever said there can never be anything more intelligent than a human???

I'm not going through the post you are asking me too, because there is nothing for me to answer. It is just a loose collection of thoughts and half sentences.

d say people who believe in god see proof of an intelligence permeating the existence of the universe,,, as you or scientists see the existence of the universe,,, its a qualitative interpretation of the data,,,, science doesnt like to do this,,, thats why it pats itself on the back for all of its objective facts,,,,, but what do these facts mean,,,,, you and some scientists think it means a lot of random chaos can make a lot of complex and sophisticated order,,.,.,. people who believe in intelligent design or god,,, may see the data and existence of the universe to mean,,, there is more to the universe in regards to structure, order, reason, purpose, potential, possibility,, then those scientists give it credit for,,,, you will have to ask aim64c what his personal definition is,.,.,.,,. i personally dont know,,,,, but I dont know how you can say there is no intelligence in nature,,, or that nature doesnt design with purpose,.,.,.,. every part of the human body including the human body has purpose in its design,,, same with a bee and their flowers,,, and the fruit and vegetable animal eats,,, and the worm tilling the soil,, and the spider is equipped with the ability to spin a web,,, these are all mechanical and intelligent designs,,..,,. you believe yourself to be intelligent yet you could not create a human from scratch,,,, including creating the quarks and protons and atoms,, and other universal lab constants that led to the potential for life to "stupidly/unintelligently create itself?" ,.,..,.,.,.,. your outlook is like wanting to look at the history of car parts,,,, and not wanting to give the designers any credit because it was only a matter of chance and trial and error before the creators got the car parts right,,,, if they were to work at all they had to work that way,,, so there was no intelligence behind it persay,,, only random fiddling till the puzzle was complete,,,,,,

Instead of this nonsensical waffle, learn to paragraph and show me some actual evidence of a designer, real physical evidence.

JUST BECAUSE SOMETHING LOOKS LIKE SOMEONE COULD HAVE DESIGNED IT IS NOT EVIDENCE THAT THING WAS DESIGNED

Originally posted by ImaFungi


I would really appreciate if you responded to all the other sentences in that post besides the 2 vague and arbitrary ones you went for.....

Don't post vague and arbitrary statements if you don't like having them taken apart and shown to be shallow and stupid.

reply to post by bias12


all the evidence you propose is evidence for my belief in intelligent design,,, therefore its just up to us talking about how we view this information,.,.,.,. we dont live in 2 different universes,,, everything that is found in reality as objective facts and truth via science is the same evidence that convinces me of intelligent design,,,, so my philosophical thoughts and the way my mind can view the entire scope of the universe and its implications is important to this topic,,,, something you cant do,,,,, you look at the data,,,, well i didnt see a big being put this stuff here so no big being exists and no intelligence put this stuff here,,, everything except for what i do is a random chance series of accidents and mistakes,,,,

Originally posted by bias12

Originally posted by ImaFungi


I would really appreciate if you responded to all the other sentences in that post besides the 2 vague and arbitrary ones you went for.....

Don't post vague and arbitrary statements if you don't like having them taken apart and shown to be shallow and stupid.

oh i love to have what i post taken apart and shown to be shallow and stupid,,, its great if you can,,,, you couldnt in that other post because the punctuation hurt your eyes,, and im sorry for that,, my fault you couldnt comprehend,,,,,, can you disect what i proposed is a summary of your arguement and tell me what parts are correct and incorrect?


this part.....

what we are as humans,, the mental skills we poses is whats known as intelligence,.,,.. nothing does or can exist which contains more of this brand of intelligence,,, and anything that contains similarities to this intelligence but on relatively smaller scales ( like animals) are not intelligent ( because they are not intelligent like us) including humans themselves, whom a large amount can be considered un intelligent,

reply to post by bias12


"When have I ever said there can never be anything more intelligent than a human??? "


can there be an intelligence that designs the specs of a universe ( laws of physics, quantity of energy, design of energy,math, geometry, aspects of light etc.) and hits start?

nature is a series of algorithmic commands and laws that are all always accounted for and take place in real time,,,,, an infinite self solving physical math equation,.,..,,.

how does human intelligence compare to the concept of algorithms,, commands,, laws,, codes,, information,,?



also LOL at you getting angry,,,,, if your logic cant solve this argument maybe your emotions can,,

Originally posted by ImaFungi



oh i love to have what i post taken apart and shown to be shallow and stupid,,, its great if you can,,,, you couldnt in that other post because the punctuation hurt your eyes,, and im sorry for that,, my fault you couldnt comprehend,,,,,, can you disect what i proposed is a summary of your arguement and tell me what parts are correct and incorrect?

Don't complain when it happens then, and, apology accepted.

what we are as humans,, the mental skills we poses is whats known as intelligence,.,,.. nothing does or can exist which contains more of this brand of intelligence,,, and anything that contains similarities to this intelligence but on relatively smaller scales ( like animals) are not intelligent ( because they are not intelligent like us) including humans themselves, whom a large amount can be considered un intelligent,

edit on 14-7-2012 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)

I will happily go through your statement and explain which parts I agree and disagree with.

"what we are as humans,, the mental skills we poses is whats known as intelligence"

Agreed, I would define mental skills as intelligence for all intents and purposes.

"nothing does or can exist which contains more of this brand of intelligence"

I am assuming you mean more than humans have. If that is what you meant to say then, no, I disagree. How would I know if there are beings somewhere more intelligent than humans? I think it is a pretty safe bet that there probably is somewhere.

"and anything that contains similarities to this intelligence but on relatively smaller scales ( like animals) are not intelligent ( because they are not intelligent like us) including humans themselves, whom a large amount can be considered un intelligent,"

I think there are relative scales of intelligence, is a human more intelligent than a squirrel? yeah probably.
Is an alien astrophysicist who conducts space operas on the side more intelligent than a human? Sounds like it!

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by bias12

 

"When have I ever said there can never be anything more intelligent than a human??? "


can there be an intelligence that designs the specs of a universe ( laws of physics, quantity of energy, design of energy,math, geometry, aspects of light etc.) and hits start?

nature is a series of algorithmic commands and laws that are all always accounted for and take place in real time,,,,, an infinite self solving physical math equation,.,..,,.

how does human intelligence compare to the concept of algorithms,, commands,, laws,, codes,, information,,?

edit on 14-7-2012 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)

edit on 14-7-2012 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)

also LOL at you getting angry,,,,, if your logic cant solve this argument maybe your emotions can,,

edit on 14-7-2012 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)

I'm not angry, after this post, more confused than anything. What are you on about?

Everything you have said in this post does not relate in any way to what you have quote me as saying. I asked you to show me when I claimed there could never be a being more intelligent than a human.

You didn't show me. Your post is shallow and stupid.

You just came out with the same vague nonsense you always do. If you quote me, make it relevant at least.

reply to post by bias12


your entire argument is that the universe/nature cannot be the product of intelligent design.,.,.,.,

thats why i asked what i asked,,,,,

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by bias12

 

your entire argument is that the universe/nature cannot be the product of intelligent design.,.,.,.,

thats why i asked what i asked,,,,,

Well why did you quote me as asking about why you thought I believed nothing more intelligent than a human exists then?

You are all over the place. I don't know what I expected from someone who thinks an ancient being magically made life happen though...

Originally posted by bias12

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by bias12

 

your entire argument is that the universe/nature cannot be the product of intelligent design.,.,.,.,

thats why i asked what i asked,,,,,

Well why did you quote me as asking about why you thought I believed nothing more intelligent than a human exists then?

You are all over the place. I don't know what I expected from someone who thinks an ancient being magically made life happen though...

because if something can contain much more intelligence then a human,,,,, and something can contain much much more intelligence then a human,,,, eventually we will get to,,, do you think something can contain enough intelligence to create and design a universe?

if you answer yes,,, then this universe/nature could have been intelligently designed,,,, if you answer no..... why?

i am all over the place,,, everything is all over the place,,,, everything is related in that it all exists,,, all over the place,,,,,, and if you believe science and math to be magic,,, then yes i believe theres a chance an "ancient being" magically made life happen,,,

reply to post by ImaFungi


4 posts to clear this up. This argument is like drawing blood from a stone lol!

I have no issues with the notion that somewhere there may very well be a being so intelligent that he could know how to create a universe...I have no feelings on it, it is not disprovable with our current level of knowledge.

I don't have an issue with you saying that we currently don't know how life began on earth.

I take an issue with people presenting the idea that an intelligent designer is both likely and plausible. There is no evidence whatsoever that a very intelligent being started life on earth. The only argument I have heard for this "theory" is the fact that by our current knowledge we can't explain how life began.

I don't see the fact that there are huge gaps in our understanding of the origin of life as evidence for a designer.

THIS IS ONLY EVIDENCE THAT WE DON'T KNOW SOMETHING...
IT IS NOT EVIDENCE THAT WE DO...

I could make up any crazy old story that you can't disprove, and claim the fact that you can't disprove it is evidence that it is true. But I would be a crazy fool.


There are a lot of facts that point to the fact that the origin of life was a natural phenomenon. I will list some...

Every other thing we once believed to be done by a god, once fully investigated, has been proven to be a natural process. Why is this one example different?

We have the very basics of knowledge of the origin of life already. We already know the ingredients of life form naturally. All known forms of life are subject to the evolution of their processes/systems. Why is the fact that we can't explain the origin of life with our current knowledge a problem?


I don't understand why people have to cling to creation myths.

I can't prove to you that god didn't stumble upon earth, see all these handy life ingredients lying around and decided to craft up some life. So f-ing what? I don't have to disprove mad theories every time a fanatic comes up with a new one. All I as a rational person can do is focus on the facts and let the data speak for itself.

I don't understand how a person can say on one hand that there isn't enough data to adequately explain the origin of life on earth, then make an assertion on the origin of life on earth!


You creationists crack me up....

reply to post by bias12


ok....... your not understanding that im saying this universe we exist in,,, everything about it,,, may have been initiated by an intelligence,,,,

"There are a lot of facts that point to the fact that the origin of life was a natural phenomenon."

I am saying what we know of as nature,, or natural phenomenon may have been initiated by an intelligence,.,.,,.

in what context do you comprehend what is "natural",,,,, what is a natural phenomenon? just default? an obvious event that is not suspicious of existing or happening? this is what i was trying to get at in my first post to you,,, you assume the universe is normal,, or "natural",..,,.

im not trying to get you to accept this point of view as your own belief ,,, im just trying to show you that it is a potential,,,,, I understand science is the only rational form of progression for man kind,,,,, I understand life on planet earth evolves over time,,,,, but i am cautious and curious as to the "nature" of the universe,,, that it should come to exist ( however it did) and an uninterrupted "natural" product of the birth of the universe, is the birth of conscious, and intelligent life-forms on the planet we inhabit,,, why should i not view this as the most strangest event conceivable? why should i accept this as obvious and base? I recognize all things that man has been able to do,,, al ideas and mechanics and technology and inventions are inspired by the existence of the universe,, the existence of man, his physical body,, his mind,, and his physical surroundings,,, the laws of physics,, mathematics,, geometry,, measurement,, harmony, order,, these are all things borrowed from the entirety of the existence of the universe and ourselves at our scale within it,, these things have existed without us, preceding far before our arrival,, perhaps far before the arrival of this universe,, in a platonic world of forms and potential,, perhaps in complete nothingness,, infinite potential for all things exists and always will,,, for all things are conceptually possible,,, this physical world and universe, shows mankind,, that conceptually possible things may also be physically manifested,,

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by bias12

I am saying what we know of as nature,, or natural phenomenon may have been initiated by an intelligence,.,.,,.

I don't understand why you are saying that though. Where did you get this idea from?

in what context do you comprehend what is "natural",,,,, what is a natural phenomenon? just default? an obvious event that is not suspicious of existing or happening? this is what i was trying to get at in my first post to you,,, you assume the universe is normal,, or "natural",..,,.

This is a great question.

I would say that a natural phenomenon is one that functions on it's own, according to set of rules, without interference from intelligent source.

An extra word on this topic;

I openly accept that there is nothing to say that before the big bang, an ancient and wise race didn't down and decided a new set of rules for a universe that they were going to create.

It sounds like a great tale.

The problem I have is that there is nothing at all to suggest such a thing ever took place. As well there shouldn't be, as I just made it up.

What is the difference between this story, and the story that a being decided, through what ever means, to create life on earth? There is exactly the same amount of evidence for them both. So why do people believe in intelligent design and not my story?

Everything we know as humans points to the fact that outside, conscious, influences have had no effect on our life on earth.

"I don't understand why you are saying that though. Where did you get this idea from?"

because the universe exists,,, i didnt put it here,, it seems comprehendible,, organized,, established by information and law,, and these are all things we relate with intelligence,,, in fact it created what we know as intelligence and allows everything we know,,can think,, or can do to exist,,, therefore I think there could be a chance that "something" created the universe with intention,.,.,.



"I would say that a natural phenomenon is one that functions on it's own, according to set of rules, without interference from intelligent source. "

so why do you consider humans intelligent,, and not just randomly functioning natural phenomenon's? microcosms of the universe that chaotically and methodically created them?


"I openly accept that there is nothing to say that before the big bang, an ancient and wise race didn't down and decided a new set of rules for a universe that they were going to create.

It sounds like a great tale.

The problem I have is that there is nothing at all to suggest such a thing ever took place. As well there shouldn't be, as I just made it up.

What is the difference between this story, and the story that a being decided, through what ever means, to create life on earth? There is exactly the same amount of evidence for them both. So why do people believe in intelligent design and not my story?"

the thing is I cant say for sure any details of the creator,, for it is way out of my element,,, but i do not think it is very illogical to posit that some form of intelligence started the universe with intention,,, just like you dont think its illogical to posit that the universe just poofed into existence by accident... from our perspective if i were to say either one of those scenarios was 50-50 chance,, i would be an agnostic,, which i guess i am,,, some days I convince my self on long trains of thought that a creator must have created the universe,,, some days i am extremely doubtful,,.,.,. this is a longing to convince myself i know the truth,, but i cant prove to myself that i know the truth about the origins or nature of the universe,,, and it doesnt matter what i think anyway because the truth of the matter is true regardless of what anyone thinks,,,

it is true that i would personally rather there being an intelligence responsible for the creation of the universe,,, for selfish reasons of course,,, so that perhaps after death it can show me the ropes and give me a job,,,,, tell me its answers and secrets,..,,, I can equally imagine there being no intelligent creator,, but then what of the universe,,, in my hindsight it was a lengthy roll of the dice that i would be born as myself in this time? or are there no such thing as any individuals,, all that truly exists is the purest and simplest form of energy and particles,,, and these particles are what builds and gets to experience omnipresently all existence at all times from all perspectives,,, kind of given the credence that nature is god,, what we are is just borrowed time and borrowed energy,, given a chance of a lifetime,, to look and listen,, breath and love for a little while,,, and when we are recycled and turned into something new in 15 years of 15 thousand,,, it will have been another roll of the dice,,, and we will get to be a part of creation yet again...

Originally posted by LastProphet527
reply to post by jiggerj

 

This doesn't make sense to me.

Its not logically possible,thats why it woudnt make sense.

Tizz all about six

OR

Billions and billions

OR

Trillions and Trillions

Maybe 17th power stuff.

Iz don't know though cuz I dumb.

0000000000000000