The Bright and Morning Star "Mary" Queen of Heaven and husband Allah

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Interesting thread, S&F. I have seen a lot of this before, but its good reading, and you put it together very well.

That's the thing about Catholicism that has bothered me the most; the worship of Mary. Biblically, Mary is just a woman, blessed by God, sure, but still ONLY a woman. There are far too many pagan undertones to the way she's treated as a deity by the RCC. Of course, there are many elements of pagan religions that have come down through the ages, and some of them are in other religions, some in advertising, etc. The bull is a common one, along with the moon goddess stuff you mention. It can be confusing to people that aren't able to sort through all the deception and see the truth.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
*snip*
The Catholic trinity is 'Father, Son, and Holy Spriit'. The Catholics are VERY clear that they do not worship Mary and that she's not part of the Holy Trinity.

Notice the attending Halo over "Mary's" head which is actually depicting her as the sungoddess with her head framed in the sun.

oy vey. Take a lesson in art history or something. All through christianity, artists would draw halos around people who they considered to be holy .. saints ... it was their auras. Ditto with the halo-rays around the monstrance. It's art work depicting the halo around Christ.

I suggest you break away from that Baptist missionary cult and go back to school.
Your so-called 'research' is seriously messed up.
And that you gave someone stars for posting Jack Chick tracts ... well ....

Catholics pray to Mary, they hail her and call her "holy". Only God is holy, and if they claim she is, they try to place her on an equal footing with God. I have heard these prayers and praises. For the record, none of the so-called "saints" are holy, either. Fact is, any person that has accepted Jesus as Savior is a "saint". That isn't determined by the RCC.

There are tons of parallels between the Catholic treatment of Mary and the old moon goddess cults. If you are actually interested, I will post some links to a very long video series on the way these old false religions have come down through the ages.

"Baptist missionary cult"? Do define that, please. As a Baptist, I am very curious as to the meaning of that phrase.

reply to post by queenofangels_17


If, as you claim, Allah isn't a moon god, then can you explain why there is a crescent moon on all of the Muslim flags? I am very curious about the reason for that very popular symbol.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


I have another link on that "Morning Star" confusion:

It's actually Jesus, not Satan.

Something I researched recently, to clear up the confusion from someone else online. Very good topic to bring up here, too.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by randyvs

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Awww hell, I hate seeing u struggle brother, plus it's the 11th hour so...

Google. "Heylel ben Sachar Isaiah 14:12"

Ok hands up !

I mean freeze.

Everyone nobody move.

Now Typ Explain this as carefully as you friggen can please !

"Heylel ben Sachar" means: *drumroll*


Crescent moon and star


In the Hebrew text of Isaiah 14:12 it says "O how thou art fallen from heaven, Heylel ben Sachar, son of the morning..."

The morning begins when the moon appears according to Jewish reckoning.

edit on 11-7-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

Oh, excellent! Now THAT explains why that particular set of symbols is on all those flags.....

Appreciate that.

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

If, as you claim, Allah isn't a moon god, then can you explain why there is a crescent moon on all of the Muslim flags? I am very curious about the reason for that very popular symbol.

The crescent moon is merely a symbol.... a logo, if you will.
Its like the 6 pointed star that is a symbol for jews.. it does not mean the jews worship a star god, does it?

People who claim Allah is a moon god need to ask themselves "what kind of a moon god forbids worship of the moon"?

Islam teaches the concept of worshipping the Creator and NOT the creation.


Do not bow down to the sun nor to the moon, but only bow down to "Allah" Who created them, if you (really) worship Him." Quran 41:37

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

 

If, as you claim, Allah isn't a moon god, then can you explain why there is a crescent moon on all of the Muslim flags? I am very curious about the reason for that very popular symbol.

The crescent moon is merely a symbol.... a logo, if you will.
Its like the 6 pointed star that is a symbol for jews.. it does not mean the jews worship a star god, does it?

People who claim Allah is a moon god need to ask themselves "what kind of a moon god forbids worship of the moon"?

Islam teaches the concept of worshipping the Creator and NOT the creation.


Do not bow down to the sun nor to the moon, but only bow down to "Allah" Who created them, if you (really) worship Him." Quran 41:37

edit on 26-10-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

I think I already found a more accurate answer. If you scroll up, you will see it just above your response to me. Considering all the other parallels, That explanation makes more sense.

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

I think I already found a more accurate answer.

You can see what you want to see... but the quote I posted from the Koran renders invalid the claim of Allah being a moon god.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

 

I think I already found a more accurate answer.

You can see what you want to see... but the quote I posted from the Koran renders invalid the claim of Allah being a moon god.

It renders it invalid in your mind, but for people who know the Quran is just a pack of amalgamated religions cobbled together from the surrounding religions in the M.E. at that time period, it's very valid, especially when you consult the archeaology. Who was the Supreme deity of the pre-islamic arabic Quraysh, the tribe whom Muhammad was born into? Answer: Hu'bal who is the moongod and whose daughters are Al'Lat, Al' Uzzah and Menat, the 3 crones whose intercession is to be hoped for per Quran.


Near it is the Garden of Abode. Behold, the Lote-tree was shrouded (in mystery unspeakable!) (His) sight never swerved, nor did it go wrong! For truly did he see, of the Signs of his Lord, the Greatest! Have ye seen Lat. and 'Uzza, And another, the third (goddess), Manat?

These are the exalted cranes (intermediaries) Whose intercession is to be hoped for.
[Words of Satan Deleted in modern Quran]

What! for you the male sex, and for Him, the female? Behold, such would be indeed a division most unfair! (an-Najm 53:19-22)

Rather fishy that the "satanic verses" would be edited out so as not to make the Quran look like it was corrupted, or rather, completely invented from polytheism.

Then there's the red heifer the Quran says was really Yellow, and supposedly Allah didn't have a companion but in Surah 53 Muhammad is magically Allah's companion.

And Muhammad saying "I am your Lord, worship me".

Originally posted by LadyGreenEyes
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Interesting thread, S&F. I have seen a lot of this before, but its good reading, and you put it together very well.

That's the thing about Catholicism that has bothered me the most; the worship of Mary. Biblically, Mary is just a woman, blessed by God, sure, but still ONLY a woman. There are far too many pagan undertones to the way she's treated as a deity by the RCC. Of course, there are many elements of pagan religions that have come down through the ages, and some of them are in other religions, some in advertising, etc. The bull is a common one, along with the moon goddess stuff you mention. It can be confusing to people that aren't able to sort through all the deception and see the truth.

Well, that's how Satan works. His ego is so huge that he hides these things right in front of our faces and then mocks us because we don't see them. It's so simple, and humans are a naive species, so trusting and never questioning.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
It renders it invalid in your mind, but for people who know the Quran is just a pack of amalgamated religions cobbled together from the surrounding religions in the M.E. at that time period, it's very valid, especially when you consult the archeaology. Who was the Supreme deity of the pre-islamic arabic Quraysh, the tribe whom Muhammad was born into? Answer: Hu'bal who is the moongod and whose daughters are Al'Lat, Al' Uzzah and Menat, the 3 crones whose intercession is to be hoped for per Quran.

Consult archeaology(sic) . Like you did, I suppose Lonewolf? I suppose you still think that Ramadan starts when the crescent moon lines up with a star? It amazes me you STILL talk about Islam, when it has been so conclusively and totally proved that you know absolutely nothing about it at all. You've probably not even ever met a muslim in real life, or even read a chapter of the Quran to completion (unless it was from an anti-islam site).

Case in point, Hubal wasn't the "Supreme deity" of the Quraish tribe. Hubal was their patron god, and he wasn't a moon god. And note, only of the Quraish, one single tribe in Mecca, not for all arabs, or even all meccans. Since you don't know anything about Islam at all, let me give you an example from today:

Brahman is considered the One, Supreme, Absolute, Origin god in Hinduism. However, many strains of Hinduism have hundreds of demi-gods or avatars as well. One example would be Durga. Durga is a female goddess of power, or force. She's the official deity of the Royal Family of Bikaner, who also have a temple dedicated to one of her incarnations in their city (you may have possibly seen it on TV, it is the one overflowing with the tamed rats).
This doesn't mean that the Royal Family of Bikaner don't believe in or accept Brahman for what Brahman is, and it in no way validates the argument that someone may feel like making that "Since Bikaner have taken Durga as their patron (matron? ) god, that means that Durga is the head god of Hinduism (or the strain of Hinduism that the Bikaner Royal Family practices). Both these statements would be false.
...wow, that was a long side-point. I hope it didn't go over your head, and I hope it had some affect...

So, getting back, Allah was accepted by the pagan arabs as being the Creator God, where they differed from the muslims was their inclusion of a whole extra pantheon who they worshipped. And Al'Lat Al'Uzzah and Menat weren't Hubal's daughters. Heck...it is believed he may have been the SON of Al'Lat (and the brother of Wadd, the ACTUAL moongod). And there is no mention of getting the intercession of any of them in the Quran.

As for Muhammad being Allah's companion....seriously....I mean, I assume you speak and read english, correct? English is your first language, correct? You probably had to do a test on reading comprehension in school, right?
You know who the Quran is supposed to have been revealed by, right? According to muslims, it is the direct word of God, dictated to Muhammad, as a message for all of humanity. Now you might disagree with that, but you have to read it within that context. The Quran is Allah speaking to people.
So now, tell me, where does Allah call Muhammad his companion in surah 53? Let me quote the verse you are PROBABLY thinking of, and I'll provide dozens of translations for it:

Muhammad Asad This fellow-man of yours has not gone astray, nor is he deluded,
M. M. Pickthall Your comrade erreth not, nor is deceived;
Shakir Your companion does not err, nor does he go astray;
Yusuf Ali Your Companion is neither astray nor being misled.
Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar neither your companion went astray, nor he erred
Wahiduddin Khan your companion has neither strayed nor is he misguided,
T.B.Irving your companion has neither strayed nor is he misguided.
[Al-Muntakhab] In confirmation of the truthful attributes of your compatriot Muhammad- who did not err nor stray from the path of safety and righteousness,
Progressive Muslims Your friend was not astray, nor was he deceived.
Abdel Haleem Your companion has not strayed; he is not deluded;
Abdul Majid Daryabadi Your companion hath not gone astray, nor hath he erred.
Ahmed Ali That your companion is not confused, nor has he gone astray,
Aisha Bewley your companion is not misguided or misled;
Ali Ünal Your Companion (the Messenger) has neither gone astray nor adopted a wrong way (in belief and action).
Ali Quli Qara'i your companion has neither gone astray, nor gone amiss.
Amatul Rahman Omar That your comrade (Muhammad) has neither deviated (from true guidance in his practices) nor has he erred (in his beliefs).
Hamid S. Aziz Your companion (Muhammad) does not err, nor is he deceived (or astray or is misled);
Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali In no way has your companion (The Prophet) erred, and in no way is he misguided.
Muhammad Sarwar your companion is not in error nor has he gone astray.
Muhammad Taqi Usmani your fellow (the Holy Prophet) has neither missed the way, nor did he deviate.
Shabbir Ahmed Your honored companion is neither in error, nor is he misled.
Syed Vickar Ahamed Your Companion (the Prophet) is not in evil ways and (he is) not being misled.
Umm Muhammad (Sahih International) Your companion [Muhammad] has not strayed, nor has he erred,
Farook Malik your companion (Muhammad) is neither astray, nor misguided,
Dr. Munir Munshey Your companion, (Muhammad, SAW), did not err, nor was he duped.
Tahir-ul-Qadri Mohammad He who bestowed on you his companionship (i.e. the Messenger, who made you his companions by blessing you with his companionship,) has never lost his way, nor has he (ever) strayed from the right path.
Dr. Kamal Omar (that) your companion has not strayed, and he has made no error.
Bilal Muhammad Your companion is neither astray nor being misled.
Maududi your companion has neither strayed nor is he deluded;

So where does Allah say Muhammad is his companion? And where does Muhammad call himself Lord, and ask for worship? Or are you suggesting that the Quran is a book that Muhammad wrote to God?

...right.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

And Muhammad saying "I am your Lord, worship me".

By that logic, Isaiah also said "Look unto me and be saved."

Originally posted by LadyGreenEyes

I think I already found a more accurate answer. If you scroll up, you will see it just above your response to me. Considering all the other parallels, That explanation makes more sense.

It says in the Quran that Allah created the whole universe, which includes the stars, earth and the moon etc The main message of the Quran is to worship ONE god, creator of the universe. It says several times to not worship idols/objects including the moon. Yet for some reason you decide to avoid all of this evidence proving that Muslims don't worship the moon.

Edit: looking closer at your comment it seems your actually agreeing with a comment that is suggesting that Islam is the devil appearing before some sort of reckoning.........
www.abovetopsecret.com...

P.S your belief that Mary shouldn't be treated as a deity is exactly what Muslims believe too.

"And from among His Signs are the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. Do not bow down (prostrate) to the sun nor to the moon, but only bow down (prostrate) to "Allah" Who created them, if you (really) worship Him."

[Noble Quran 41:37]

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes


LadyGreenEyes


TROPHY

In the times of Ancient Greeece and Rome it was regarded as a structure consisting of the captured ARMS, FLAGS or other spoils of a DEFEAT ENEMY, hung on a tree, or pillar, of the field of balltle or elsewhere as a memorial of VICTORY- THIS PRACTICE IS STILL BEING PRACTICED TODAY-

Reason the symbols in the Revelation, helraldry, FLAGS and numbers represent the VICTORY over JESUS.


CHAPTER 12 or the revelations is just inportant as chapter 13.
The women represents the chosen people, not mary as everyone made to
believe in the Catholic Church, the statue of MARY in the CATHOLIC church is the same
women in Chapter 12 that represents the chosen people.

The moon represents the defest of JESUS and the crown represents the the 12 tribes.
The statue of liberty in NEW YORK was formed from the above paragraph of the Revelation, that is
why the feet of the statue represent a broken shackle, symbolising the overthrow of
tyranny, who is Jesus. Jesus is also described as the crescent, therefore, the reason
why it is depicted on all Islamic symbols and of his defeat.
Across the road from the Zagreb Cathedral in Croatia is a gold statue of a woman portrayed with
12 stars above her head, and the moon and snake beneath her feet, and below that
are 4 beasts with water pouring out of their mouths. (Revelation 12.15) "...and then,
from his mouth, the dragon poured out of a flood of water after the woman."
People seem to think the statue represents Mary, however, even the churches preach
that this woman symbolises God's chosen people (Revelation 12).

Isaiah 66.7 " My Holy city is like a women who suddenly gives birth to a child"
Isaiah 66.13 "I will comfort you in Jerusalem as a mother comforts her child"

Women = A nation
12 stars above her head, 12 tribes

Dragon= snake , devil

666= xxx= +++= father, son, holy spirit= Holy Trinity= JESUS.

6= the 6th day of the week, Friday, the day Jesus was crucified.

SATAN= in Hebrew means opponent, JESUS WAS THE OPPONENT
to the leaders who crucified him and they wrote the Revelation against him.


666= Revelation 13.2 " the beast looked like leopard, with feet like a bears feet
and a mouth like a lions mouth"
In Heraldry the beast is used as a symbol of victory over the beast, who is JESUS.
Flag of England and many other Countries use the symbol of the beast,
while everyone thinks it's Lion.
Also in Heraldry the symbol of a castle with 3 towers also means 666.
In fact nearly all of symbols used in Heraldry is based on the revelation and used as a
symbol of defeat against Satan who is JESUS.

SAME WITH THE CRESENT IN ISLAM, MEANS DEFEAT OF JESUS.

reply to post by Mikeyhazeeee

"And from among His Signs are the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. Do not bow down (prostrate) to the sun nor to the moon, but only bow down (prostrate) to "Allah" Who created them, if you (really) worship Him."

Indeed. Its amazing how Christians think they can decide who the muslims worship.

Welcome to ATS. You have your first star from me.

Originally posted by LadyGreenEyes
Catholics pray to Mary, they hail her and call her "holy". Only God is holy, and if they claim she is, they try to place her on an equal footing with God. I have heard these prayers and praises. For the record, none of the so-called "saints" are holy, either. Fact is, any person that has accepted Jesus as Savior is a "saint". That isn't determined by the RCC.

There are a few things here that you may be a bit confused about:

1) The prayer to Mary is not a prayer as an act of worship, it's a form of communication, the same as if you were conversing with someone here on earth. The general concept is that all that are saved are of one body and alive in Christ. The problem here may be one of nomenclature. As Catholics, I'm leaning towards the thought that we should update our language to avoid errors such as this. A slightly outdated usage of pray is to beseech, supplicate, beg or request.

2) Again, a problem of definitions. I'm not sure what the problem with 'hail', but it's not a term reserved for God.

3) Last problem with terminology. Holy is not, as you claim, only to be used for God (if I'm wrong, please show me where it is written that it is reserved for God). Holy can be an item or person dedicated to the service of God or a consecrated item.

4) The Catholic Church does not create saints and it doesn't claim to. Saints would be saints regardless of recognition of the Church. I'm not sure why you believe that the Church thinks that it determines who is and isn't a Saint.

Have a great day.

Eric

Originally posted by EricD

Originally posted by LadyGreenEyes
Catholics pray to Mary, they hail her and call her "holy". Only God is holy, and if they claim she is, they try to place her on an equal footing with God. I have heard these prayers and praises. For the record, none of the so-called "saints" are holy, either. Fact is, any person that has accepted Jesus as Savior is a "saint". That isn't determined by the RCC.

There are a few things here that you may be a bit confused about:

1) The prayer to Mary is not a prayer as an act of worship, it's a form of communication, the same as if you were conversing with someone here on earth. The general concept is that all that are saved are of one body and alive in Christ. The problem here may be one of nomenclature. As Catholics, I'm leaning towards the thought that we should update our language to avoid errors such as this. A slightly outdated usage of pray is to beseech, supplicate, beg or request.

2) Again, a problem of definitions. I'm not sure what the problem with 'hail', but it's not a term reserved for God.

"Hail" is a form of praise. In this case, to someone that isn't here, and cannot hear them. Praying to Mary means assuming she can listen. I haven't seen anything in the Bible to indicate that someone already in heaven can hear people still on Earth. Plus, Jesus tells us to pray to the Father, not to Mary, or anyone else. Sure, Mary would be saved; that I won't disagree on. Alive, yes, in Heaven. Answering prayers? Can't agree on that point. Plus, many times, Mary is talked about as though she is on the same level as Jesus. Maybe not by all Catholics, but I have personally heard that, and seen a lot more online about it. In some cases, there are even parallels to old false religions. Dangerous ground there. To be totally fair, there are other groups that get off track, too. Seen some seriously creepy videos from supposed churches, with people running around like they are possessed, so mistakes are made among many groups.

Originally posted by EricD

Originally posted by LadyGreenEyes3) Last problem with terminology. Holy is not, as you claim, only to be used for God (if I'm wrong, please show me where it is written that it is reserved for God). Holy can be an item or person dedicated to the service of God or a consecrated item.

Where in the Bible does it state that items can be consecrated? Or people, for that matter? For any issue like that, we need to look at the Scriptures. Holy is a reference to perfect, without flaw, of the divine. The Bible is holy, because it is His word. God is, of course, holy. People, though? Not a single human being is perfect, and thus none is holy. Mary was surely a decent person, with many fine qualities, but she was also a sinner, as are we all. Thus, not holy. Obedient, yes, for which we can all be grateful, but not perfect.

Originally posted by EricD
4) The Catholic Church does not create saints and it doesn't claim to. Saints would be saints regardless of recognition of the Church. I'm not sure why you believe that the Church thinks that it determines who is and isn't a Saint.

Have a great day.

Eric

The Catholic Church decides who is declared a saint, and always has. God hasn't spoken from heaven and stated that this or that person is a saint. Of course, some of these were probably very devoted believers, doing many good things, but there are tons of people like that.

In any case, always good to compare notes, and hear the other viewpoint! The key is that we know who Jesus is, and what He did for us. The rest is good to discuss, but salvation is the key. Great discussing, though, and have a good night!

Alright, I can't get this ending to not be in the quote....can I scream now?

edit on 3-12-2012 by LadyGreenEyes because: (no reason given)

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by EricD

 

What painting is this and where is it hung?

The guy didn't tell me all that, he said in Rome and it's all i got.

I'm not saying this to be insulting - I am going to tell you the honest truth as someone who spent several years in college learning how to do good research.

The fact that you didn't so much as bother to do a reverse Google image search (which confirmed teamhair's post for me in under 30 seconds) and find out that this painting was NOT about the "father, mother, child" trinity - tells me:

1) you do not check your sources
2) you do not know how to do proper research
3) you will believe any darn thing you're told
4) this whole thread is a bunch of nonsense

Your reply (quoted above) destroyed ALL YOUR CREDIBILITY. Because you accepted what you were told implicitly without even fact-checking it, I can't accept anything you say as fact.

This thread is full of ignorance. I have to tell you, lonewolf, I've read your other posts with interest and now I am very disappointed. Your "months of research" were not well spent. And you don't know very much about comparative religion - even my paltry knowledge disproves about half of this crazy thread.

I'm sorry to be so harsh. This post is me DENYING IGNORANCE.

Go back to the beginning. Start fact checking. Study a bit more. Try again. Stop believing every lunatic (har) with a website.

ETA: nevermind. I started to tell you how you're confusing far-outside-the-mainstream middle ages mysticism with the official church line & some other stuff, but I decided you need to look this up for yourself. There are kernels of truth here, mixed with a LOT of misinformation.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

 

I think I already found a more accurate answer.

You can see what you want to see... but the quote I posted from the Koran renders invalid the claim of Allah being a moon god.

You posted a quote from a book I consider totally invalid, and nothing but a copy of other works mixed in with old religions.

As for the data, lonewolf already did a great job showing how you are off there. No need to repeat that.