One of the hardest "video games" possible: Voluntary Death

Originally posted by jonnywhite
We as a species have to be responsible with these things. As a programmer, I almost feel it's my duty to someday use these skills in a more positive fashion that builds on the past. I want us to find a way to use VR and VRSims in positive ways, not just for entertainment or to hook users in some sinister plan to empty their wallets. I think games that specialize in education are a possible route.

Yes I agree, my most rewarding application was a mathematics game that helped a friends kid come top of the class in sums after consistently being bottom, games to educate have been a recognised approach for a couple of decades now at least. It was back in the days of floppy disks so I expect that application did the rounds amoungst parents, but that's all good if the kids benefited.

Originally posted by ErgoTheConfusion

I think initially there would be a lot of psychological trauma.

But not because what is happening is negative... but because these things would start destroying the illusions we hold of ourselves. People would find they are NOT as brave as they think they are (or are MORE brave than they think they are). They would find that without the constraints or support of their community they would actually be much different people.

Think of the liberating aspect of the internet, but also the trauma when people find out that others (or themselves) aren't like they were conditioned to believe.

The long term effect will be a significantly greater understanding of others by those who choose to go into them, and thus a much wiser view in general. These people will eventually replace those who refuse to learn from them as the leaders, just like literacy is a required aspect of being a leader now. This would be a new form of literacy... the ability to take any situation no matter how challenging, be willing to put yourself through it to understand it, and then sharing your understanding with others while making "real world" decisions.

Who will better understand how to deal with a rape than someone who has been both a rapist and a rape victim?

edit on 2012/7/12 by ErgoTheConfusion because: (no reason given)

Thank you for your response.

So. Wow. This is a very detached-seeming viewpoint. I doubt the product would last long if folks "woke up" at the end and hated themselves (not to mention the game designer), or required years of therapy to feel normal again. That is my opinion of what would happen if it was required for "literacy" to have someone play a victim of rape, or had them be a rapist, or other horrific thing.

If upon leaving the game people started "choosing" to commit suicide based on events that happened in the game, the gods/creators of the game would have a lot to be responsible for, imo. And I really think this could happen. You take a basically good person and ask them to commit an act they would never consciously commit, and then expect it to all be "just a game" when they get out of it.... Not a realistic view of human psychology, imo. Purposefully generating terror, victimization, abuse, etc. in a realistic setting where people believe they are REALLY in that situation - that's not healthy for anyone (heart attack during the game?). Do you really think it is? I mean, have you ever been victimized on that level? There are plenty of suicide hotlines and rape hotlines that deal with that kind of trauma - frankly, I think there is enough violence in the world already. Yikes. (I wish you could hear my tone of voice for this - think "bewildered" and "concerned" as opposed to "attacking")

Perhaps you are thinking that someone who experienced both rape and being a rapist would somehow walk away with more compassion at the end of it? Just. Wow. I'm trying to understand. Frankly, I don't need that to be compassionate. It sounds more like something we wouldn't even sentence a criminal to have to go through. I don't know how many people would choose this. I mean why would someone allow a programmer to be their god, why trust you with their inner psyche? This could seriously hurt people - are you at all concerned about that???

I mean you absolutely no disrespect in this discussion. Truly. I just don't get how this is okay to do to people, or why people would want to do it to themselves by choice.

peace,
AB

reply to post by AboveBoard

You've hit on a potent aspect of this that I want to give more time to. No disrespect is taken, I just haven't elucidated the full scope of what I intended to present to your original question and wound up painting a far more brutal picture than was meant, heh.

Your reaction gets to the heart of some of the core issues that would need to be dealt with once this becomes possible or even common.

Will reply more fully after food.

Originally posted by ErgoTheConfusion
reply to post by AboveBoard

 

You've hit on a potent aspect of this that I want to give more time to. No disrespect is taken, I just haven't elucidated the full scope of what I intended to present to your original question and wound up painting a far more brutal picture than was meant, heh.

Your reaction gets to the heart of some of the core issues that would need to be dealt with once this becomes possible or even common.

Will reply more fully after food.

Cool.

See, I can think of a whole slew of really amazing and positive things this tech could be used for - especially in education. Think of training surgeons - having them go through several "simulators" with this level of realism before actually cutting into a "real" person - invaluable!! That's just one! People we trust with our lives, airline pilots, astronauts, hazardous materials recovery, designers could see the real-life problems and victories of their designs, cars could be crash-tested, EMTs could be trained, we could explore virtual Mars and see the practicalities and pitfalls of setting up a colony on another planet before making that leap in "real time," kids could learn to drive, people could meet in "classrooms" with students from across the globe and interact in a realistic way, we could visit remote places that we'd never really get to travel to, have vacations in amazing places, etc. So this concept has a huge potential to positively impact the world, for sure.

(Total Recall, the movie - that is what I'm seeing your idea as being in a way - and that certainly had plenty of mind-bending stuff!!! ;-)

Again, double-edged sword imo.

I'm interested, when you have eaten, in understanding your views more fully. Thank you again for your reply!

peace,
AB

Wow, you just blew my mind.

I have been walking a "path" for about ten years now. I have been told I am supposed to write a book, and my experiences and path has been leading me up to this writing. My book is on this very topic, I am speechless. There is so much truth hidden in that post, its scary. You know so much about reality and truth.

The way I got to these ideas, I was actually "reset" if you will. I was with my girlfriend, best friend and his girlfriend, who are all my best friends. And we had an experience where we reset, beat the level and up leveled. I never put it together until this post that it happened at the moment of death. I was actually told how to beat the next level. I know that sounds insane....

Why do you think its about dying though? Isn't the game just to experience who we are and what we want to experience? Isn't death just one aspect of that experience? I can't even think straight today because of this post. I almost feel like my idea's were not mine anymore lol. I know you hold so much knowledge and truth, I would love to talk to you some time.

I have had these exact ideas through experience. I have read this site for almost a decade, and I have never joined as a member. It was this post that made me create a name.

I am in owe.....

reply to post by ErgoTheConfusion



Many say it far more likely that you are living in a simulation now. Advanced civilzations will run a significant number of simulations of their evolutionary history or similar, and well chances are.

This paper argues that at least one of the following propositions is true: (1) the human species is very likely to go extinct before reaching a “posthuman” stage; (2) any posthuman civilization is extremely unlikely to run a significant number of simulations of their evolutionary history (or variations thereof); (3) we are almost certainly living in a computer simulation. It follows that the belief that there is a significant chance that we will one day become posthumans who run ancestor-simulations is false, unless we are currently living in a simulation. A number of other consequences of this result are also discussed.

www.simulation-argument.com...

It would be nice if we were just plugged in, would it not? Live your simulated life get your $250.00 bucks for beeing part of the study etc... Chances are we are just simulations though! I dont image it would be easy to plug in 6 billion+.

Textreply to post by ErgoTheConfusion

Jeg ser deg min venn.

I made this account simply to reply to this thought you have
because, previous to now, I have had similar thoughts
I work in IT as well, and have a view of systems and various networks
having been in this field for awhile, I start to notice anomalies and too-good-to-be coincidences
and I started tracking similar traits of this
because it really does seem like a game
only so well done you would never even know you were playing

I am interested to read what else you were shown

Bad reference but it is like when my buddies and I are playing Resident Evil: Operation Raccoon City and one of us gets infected but have no antiviral spray. The first thing we start asking for is to get killed by one of our fellow players to prevent us from turning into zombies.

It seems to work out but as I said this is a bad analogy. xD
--

Personally your ideas are great but having the object of a game to off yourself seems too silly.

I guess I could see entertainment possibly taking that next step eventually in more forms. Maybe.

But game entertainment is supposed to be an escape from reality. TV is no different. Even reality TV is an illusion - it's not reality for 99% of people that watch it. Entertainment is a diversion from our mundane lives. Something to make us feel extraordinary or amazing or amazed or bemused or indestructible while being reckless.

Death in a game is never terribly popular. Death after all, is reality. We don't engage in entertainment to embrace death. Consider the few games that offer permanent death. Is the permadeath model very popular? No, it's not. And it probably never will be. We are not mentally able to handle the thought of real death. End of the line - game over... no thanks. That's the mindset.

Entertainment is about making us feeling amazing. Until we understand death, it is not amazing - it's something if not feared and reviled, at least shunned.

I do enjoy a challenging but fair game. Demon's Soul and it's successor is the sort of deadly game I can dig. It's difficult.. you will die a lot.. but it's a fair death. I like challenging, but I like fair. I guess some day, a super MMO where you live out a life to a certain conclusion might be a reality. It could even end up being fairly engaging and entertaining. But it has to be just right... because people don't enjoy the thought of "the end," no matter HOW it ends.

Originally posted by ErgoTheConfusion

Originally posted by RMFX1
reply to post by ErgoTheConfusion

 

Just out of interest, which games have you worked on?

I thought back and forth on this as you can imagine.

gamingisstupid.com...

Impressive list.

I want to puzzle over whether we're in a simulation or in a sort of virtual reality.

People ask where the aliens are.

Fermi's Paradox:
en.wikipedia.org...

...........
The Fermi paradox can be asked in two ways. The first is, "Why are no aliens or their artifacts physically here?" If interstellar travel is possible, even the "slow" kind nearly within the reach of Earth technology, then it would only take from 5 million to 50 million years to colonize the galaxy.[12] This is a relatively small amount of time on a geological scale, let alone a cosmological one. Since there are many stars older than the Sun, or since intelligent life might have evolved earlier elsewhere, the question then becomes why the galaxy has not been colonized already.....

...........
The argument above may not hold for the universe as a whole, since travel times may well explain the lack of physical presence on Earth of alien inhabitants of far away galaxies. However, the question then becomes "Why do we see no signs of intelligent life?" since a sufficiently advanced civilization[Note 1] could potentially be observable over a significant fraction of the size of the observable universe.....

That's Fermi's Paradox. The aliens either should be here or we should be able to see them. And we shouldn't have to try very hard. This is what has led some scientists to theorize that alien civilizations either destroyed themselves or they somehow fail to reach an advanced stage where they would be capable of colonizing the space outside their home planet.

Then there're things like this:
io9.com - A Game-Changer in the Search for Alien Life: “All stars have planets”...

..........
But researchers at the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics discovered that the base elements required to form rocky planets formed very quickly after the formation of the Universe. Moreover, they discovered that Earthlike planets can still take shape with a limited variety of elements available, including systems with only one-quarter of the Sun's metal content. What this suggests is that rocky planets can form almost anywhere in the galaxy — and they have been doing so for billions of years.
............

Furthermore, previous estimates placed the number of stars in the observable universe at about 30-100 sextillion stars. This is even referenced in the Fermi's Paradox link (hasn't been updated).

But they've cautiously increased the potential to 300+ sextillion, see here:
www.cbsnews.com - Universe's Star Count Could Triple...

Few more things to look at:
www.skymania.com - Billions of Earth-like worlds in Milky Way...
www.space.com -
New Estimate for Alien Earths: 2 Billion in Our Galaxy Alone...

None of this is proof for life elsewhere. But it's the tip of the iceberg of what's going on. And the prospects that life could have existed billions of years ago seems increasingly possible.

My question is: If they've been around that long, where're they? This ties back to the Fermi's Paradox. But it also makes me wonder about the simulation hypothesis. If they really have been around that long and cosmic distances don't stop them then something is hiding them from our awareness. I refuse to believe they would sit on their homeworld for billions of years and nothing would result from it. That's just as absurd as believing there's no life elsewhere. Either we're in a simulation or they've hacked into the universe itself and, in effect, hijacked its processes and become the central administrator. Both cases lead to a result that can be considered a virtual reality. One is a simulation and the other is a hijacked reality. This may not be a literal simulation, but with alien "overlords" that have billions of years of knowledge, it may as well be.

Who knows how deeply the "overlords" have embedded themselves into the universe's code. We can't predict. They might be invisible at will. They would probably be considered gods.

Something else on my mind is if we ourselves were a overlord species and had reached the limits of what's possible in this universe, might we create virtual worlds to forget our limitations and to re-live the past fresh and new? If we were at the limits of everything, wouldn't that be depressing? It would be like being stuck in a box with nowhere to go. Understandably, they might wish to forget everything they know, at least temporarily. Or maybe we haven't reached the limits of this universe but some of us are frustrated by the ruling system and seek freedom in virtual worlds where we can do things we're not allowed to in the real world. In this case, we're like rebels or revolutionaries. Outcasts.

Ultimately, I do not think we know what an overlord species would do or what their reasoning would be. We do not know enough about this universe to make a reasonable judgment.

And I also think that we're prejudiced towards believing in an after-life or a god. We fear death and depravity and would despair if not for the hope that's engendered in us when we have faith. Realizing this, I have to question our motive in this thread. Do we WANT this to be a simulation or do we seek to make it a simulation simply because of our shared fear of death or loss? See, sometimes I think that this whole "Reality is a matrix, a sim; it's not real!" is just the modern version of past religious faith or desire for a larger meaning than is present. Why can't we accept that reality just -is-?

Well, as I've tried to outline in this post, logic tells me that higher powers than ourselves should be out there. In fact, they should have been out there for billions of years. But where? And what did they do? And that's what leads me to think of the possibility of a simulation or a hijacked reality.

What if God is real, but is actually just the most almighty alien? Angels and demons, same thing. It's a possibility. Probably not likely since we do not have empirical evidence for it. And if we're going to give christianity a chance then we must give all of the religions and cults a chance. What if Santa Claus is an alien? What if the Faery God Mother is an alien? What if Zeus is an alien? What if Buddhism is inspired by aliens? Get what I'm saying? Still, maybe there is some sort of God or higher power, but we don't (as yet) possess empirical evidence. The main point I'm making is that if there's a God or a higher power, it's likely some sort of alien overlord species that has existed for billions of years.

Hey, maybe the universe is alive and eats souls. That's why we have to die.

Originally posted by RMFX1
Impressive list.

/appreciative nod and smile

Originally posted by dpwishy
Wow, you just blew my mind.

I have been walking a "path" for about ten years now. I have been told I am supposed to write a book, and my experiences and path has been leading me up to this writing. My book is on this very topic, I am speechless. There is so much truth hidden in that post, its scary. You know so much about reality and truth.

I would absolutely love to read this book when you do it. If you want to exchange thoughts/perspectives more directly feel free to message me.

Glad to know it was able to make another gear click!

Namaste

Originally posted by t1mb3rl1n3
Textreply to post by ErgoTheConfusion

 

Jeg ser deg min venn.

I made this account simply to reply to this thought you have
because, previous to now, I have had similar thoughts
I work in IT as well, and have a view of systems and various networks
having been in this field for awhile, I start to notice anomalies and too-good-to-be coincidences
and I started tracking similar traits of this
because it really does seem like a game
only so well done you would never even know you were playing

I am interested to read what else you were shown

And I see you too friend!

You are almost certainly seeing the same elements coming together I am. It's kinda eerie but very exciting and fascinating.

Namaste!

Originally posted by TheBloodRed
Bad reference but it is like when my buddies and I are playing Resident Evil: Operation Raccoon City and one of us gets infected but have no antiviral spray. The first thing we start asking for is to get killed by one of our fellow players to prevent us from turning into zombies.

It seems to work out but as I said this is a bad analogy. xD
--

Personally your ideas are great but having the object of a game to off yourself seems too silly.

Nah, the analogy is perfect. It's about being able to make a choice that may actually require sacrifice. Now imagine if you didn't know whether you were *actually* going to survive in that situation above? What choice would you make?

That's the fundamental nature of the game listed above. You don't have to off yourself... you simply have to... when the time comes... "choose" to die. So for example in your situation above the players would have to decide "Do I keep playing and risk hurting the rest of the group, or do I go off on my own and hope we don't cross paths, or do I have them off me, or do they just off me without asking?" etc. When you don't know you are going to actually still be alive and fine afterwards... the choices are VERY different.

Namaste.

Originally posted by Donkey_Dean
reply to post by ErgoTheConfusion

 

Many say it far more likely that you are living in a simulation now. Advanced civilzations will run a significant number of simulations of their evolutionary history or similar, and well chances are.

...

I dont image it would be easy to plug in 6 billion+.

That's the beauty of it... you don't have to plug in 6 billion+.

All you would need to do is plug 1 in 6 billion+ times.

Think of it like this: Imagine a blank "canvas" or "game world". Now you "descend" into the world and "do stuff" for the duration of it. Once you exit... that movement is recorded and can be played back.

Now you descend again. You can leave the first "player's" actions alone, or you can work with it, or you can "interrupt" it. Do this over and over and over. Popping into the "game" at any point you like... constantly trying to "adjust" things to get the outcome you want. There is no "end"... you just keep adding "brush strokes" until you are satisfied or bored... and then move on to another "universe painting".

This could also be done with 2, 3, 4 players. I feel there are way fewer of "us" here than we traditionally think.

Or another example: When I used to play MUDs, I would control 2-4 characters at a time with one "command line". Others controlled many more. I would often create a macro that would send one "command" to all 4, and they would all 4 interpret the instruction according to their own programming. The better I had socially connected a single command to allow 4 units to work harmoniously, the more efficient I could be and more I could "do".

However if the "mage" tried to tell the "warrior" that "attack" meant ONE SPECIFIC way of attacking, then the entire system will break down.

Right now we live in a society full of people telling each other that their way of responding to the "macro command" is the only way, creating a ton of resistance to be overcome.

Namaste

Originally posted by fleabit
I guess I could see entertainment possibly taking that next step eventually in more forms. Maybe.

But game entertainment is supposed to be an escape from reality. TV is no different. Even reality TV is an illusion - it's not reality for 99% of people that watch it. Entertainment is a diversion from our mundane lives. Something to make us feel extraordinary or amazing or amazed or bemused or indestructible while being reckless.

Death in a game is never terribly popular. Death after all, is reality. We don't engage in entertainment to embrace death. Consider the few games that offer permanent death. Is the permadeath model very popular? No, it's not. And it probably never will be. We are not mentally able to handle the thought of real death. End of the line - game over... no thanks. That's the mindset.

Entertainment is about making us feeling amazing. Until we understand death, it is not amazing - it's something if not feared and reviled, at least shunned.

I do enjoy a challenging but fair game. Demon's Soul and it's successor is the sort of deadly game I can dig. It's difficult.. you will die a lot.. but it's a fair death. I like challenging, but I like fair. I guess some day, a super MMO where you live out a life to a certain conclusion might be a reality. It could even end up being fairly engaging and entertaining. But it has to be just right... because people don't enjoy the thought of "the end," no matter HOW it ends.

The example listed above would most certainly be for only he hardcore, or those wishing to "learn" (think an aircraft simulation for real pilots vs a "game" for normal people... same fundamental mechanics but very different approach).

The fundamental concept would embrace entertainment with a vengeance, to the point of being difficult to *not* be addictive. Most drug users keep using drugs to try to recapture a previous experience. If you can go into a "game" or "situation" as many times as you like as if it were the first time, would most people be able to stop? Especially if you can simulate highs, sex, revenge, beach vacations, throwing the winning touchdown at the super bowl, etc.

There are entertainment uses, educational uses, exploration uses, etc. What I want to open the door to is us acknowledging it NOW as best we can before it's used against us.

Coming from within the industry, many well meaning people will be used to exploit player's addictive personalities thinking they are creating "entertainment". They aren't... they are creating powerful systems for exploiting rather than expanding.

It's why I'm needing to re-calibrate where I want to be putting my energy in my field because I can't stomach watching very talented people having their passion for a craft being used to extract Dollars out of Customers rather than provide Value to Players.

Namaste.

Originally posted by jonnywhite
I want to puzzle over whether we're in a simulation or in a sort of virtual reality.

People ask where the aliens are.

...

Who knows how deeply the "overlords" have embedded themselves into the universe's code. We can't predict. They might be invisible at will. They would probably be considered gods.

...

Ultimately, I do not think we know what an overlord species would do or what their reasoning would be. We do not know enough about this universe to make a reasonable judgment.

Exactly.

And all it would take is being "one dimension" above ours and there would be total domination and zero recourse except to "ascend" to the next dimension.

We would be able to decipher the full intent, scope, and outcome of their actions no better than a Goat can decipher what the Shepherd is doing when it sheers it or clips its toes or puts a tag in its ear. Less even, because at least the Goat still exists with the Shepherd's timeline.

Namaste!

Originally posted by AboveBoard
Cool.

See, I can think of a whole slew of really amazing and positive things this tech could be used for - especially in education. Think of training surgeons - having them go through several "simulators" with this level of realism before actually cutting into a "real" person - invaluable!! That's just one! People we trust with our lives, airline pilots, astronauts, hazardous materials recovery, designers could see the real-life problems and victories of their designs, cars could be crash-tested, EMTs could be trained, we could explore virtual Mars and see the practicalities and pitfalls of setting up a colony on another planet before making that leap in "real time," kids could learn to drive, people could meet in "classrooms" with students from across the globe and interact in a realistic way, we could visit remote places that we'd never really get to travel to, have vacations in amazing places, etc. So this concept has a huge potential to positively impact the world, for sure.

(Total Recall, the movie - that is what I'm seeing your idea as being in a way - and that certainly had plenty of mind-bending stuff!!! ;-)

Again, double-edged sword imo.

I'm interested, when you have eaten, in understanding your views more fully. Thank you again for your reply!

So food turned into being outside with friends and... well... sorry for the delay.

#1 I personally would never ask, support, or propose this to be MANDATORY, ever.

However, I can recognize that over time, just like you had to learn to read to keep up, doing simulations like this will be necessary to have any chance of keeping up with your fellows. It might seem cruel, but would we all rather become illiterate to ensure those who can't read are on even ground for being able to learn and understand?

#2 The sort of person who would go "be" a rapist is a clinical psychologist specializing in helping pull a person stuck in the hate, fear, resentment loop of violence against the opposite sex. They would be trained for this the same way they are trained to read literature or watch film about the subject matter, even if it is highly painful. A person who has never used drugs is a joke trying to give any advice to someone who is stuck in it.

If you have personally felt yourself crushed to the point where you see no recourse, or can't see AT ALL, you will be better able to recognize the signs and symptoms that are ACTUALLY affecting the person from within, rather than trying to decipher from without. You will pick up on all the subtle things most of us never even realize are affecting us, especially when it comes to really fringe behavior such as murder and rape.

I went for the throat of the most difficult ones because that's where the real difficulties will come. We'll have to make choices: Do we take a child molester and plug them into a simulation where they spend the rest of their "lives" in "prison" simulating whatever they like and no harm coming? Or do we try to "change" them? We won't know.

We don't even know whether if we were to take most violent offenders now, give them a lifetime to simulate all their aggression, if they will actually come out of it far healthier and ready to integrate? We'll see the difference between those who just need to "YELL" in their own way, vs those who are actually fundamentally "programmed" to constantly inflict the suffering on others.

It has the potential to be the most compassionate therapy possible, most effective education possible, as well as the most destructive black hole for human energy ever as we stop "doing" and just keep re-simulating our "best hits".

Hope that helps?

#3 Which is the more compassionate thing to do? Send someone to suffer for eternity, or trap them in a loop of experiencing their greatest violent joy in a way where nobody but themselves experiences it? It's a way of looking at "heaven" and "hell" a little differently and how one man's heaven could be another's hell and vice versa. And how ultimately it's all "heaven" and all "good" with no genuine "evil", thus bringing us back to almost every philosophy that has survived from ancient times till now.

It would also give the opportunity for someone to genuinely break out if somehow after the 1,000,000th simulation they finally have some experience which causes something to "click" differently and suddenly we realize they are manifesting an entirely different reality in their simulation which is moving towards a healthy direction.

If you have eternity to torment someone, you also have eternity to give them to finally "get it". No "one shot and you're done" absurdity.

We can see how if our meager human technology is capable of that soonish... what would a consciousness wiser than us pursue? Prison or eternal simulated therapy until ready to return back to the rest of Existence without the harmful to others destructive tendency? (Tao/God/Infinity/The Universe/Atman... whatever)

Namaste!

reply to post by ErgoTheConfusion
Hey - thanks so much for the reply. It's my turn to duck out for awhile - but I'll come back to this for sure.
peace,
AB