Well, Peter Hansen explained it quite good. I bet most people in this world believe that Hamas is a terrorist organization and just that.

It's a very uncomfortable situation for this organization called Hamas. First of all it's membership consist not only of good people, a reasonable amount are possible or active terrorists. On the other side the Hamas is the only operational aid organization left to Palestinians.

It's somehow like wearing the Red Cross and shooting as soon as somebody turns around. But what to do? Nobody can tell them to split into the comfortable Hamas and the terror Hamas. A tough decission, without Hamas Palestinians will starve and suffer life even more as they already do.

Though, who cares?
What goes around comes around. The Israelis financed Hamas as they were founded and messed up the relationship to them. So bad luck.

But the parallel is interesting. The UN and the Israelis financed Hamas and Hamas members in hope of helping the situation. Both failed and still fail.

Whoa you got me there too I always thought that hamas was a terrorist group, interesting.

Quote from prisonplanet, not the best source on the net but it's a good summary. The original news came from UPI (www.upi.com). The intelligence information is known since the 1980's.

Israel and Hamas may currently be locked in deadly combat, but, according to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials, beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years.

Israel "aided Hamas directly -- the Israelis wanted to use it as a counterbalance to the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization)," said Tony Cordesman, Middle East analyst for the Center for Strategic Studies.

Israel's support for Hamas "was a direct attempt to divide and dilute support for a strong, secular PLO by using a competing religious alternative," said a former senior CIA official.

According to documents United Press International obtained from the Israel-based Institute for Counter Terrorism, Hamas evolved from cells of the Muslim Brotherhood, founded in Egypt in 1928. Islamic movements in Israel and Palestine were "weak and dormant" until after the 1967 Six Day War in which Israel scored a stunning victory over its Arab enemies.

After 1967, a great part of the success of the Hamas/Muslim Brotherhood was due to their activities among the refugees of the Gaza Strip. The cornerstone of the Islamic movements success was an impressive social, religious, educational and cultural infrastructure, called Da'wah, that worked to ease the hardship of large numbers of Palestinian refugees, confined to camps, and many who were living on the edge.

"Social influence grew into political influence," first in the Gaza Strip, then on the West Bank, said an administration official who spoke on condition of anonymity.

According to ICT papers, Hamas was legally registered in Israel in 1978 by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the movement's spiritual leader, as an Islamic Association by the name Al-Mujamma al Islami, which widened its base of supporters and sympathizers by religious propaganda and social work.

According to U.S. administration officials, funds for the movement came from the oil-producing states and directly and indirectly from Israel. The PLO was secular and leftist and promoted Palestinian nationalism. Hamas wanted to set up a transnational state under the rule of Islam, much like Khomeini's Iran.

What took Israeli leaders by surprise was the way the Islamic movements began to surge after the Iranian revolution, after armed resistance to Israel sprang up in southern Lebanon vis-à-vis the Hezbollah, backed by Iran, these sources said.

"Nothing provides the energy for imitation as much as success," commented one administration expert.

Originally posted by shoo
Well, Peter Hansen explained it quite good. I bet most people in this world believe that Hamas is a terrorist organization and just that.

Sure, and Al Qaeda is more than a terrorist organization also. It is full of sensitive people....so sensitive they blow themselves up so the world meets their demands, of course they don't mind killing innocent people in the process.......they also have a health plan, althou anyone with a rational mind will not accept it.....

I don't care if Hamas is working on a cure for cancer; they have in fact claimed responsibility for a number of terror attacks. I would think that makes them a terrorist organization. Like you said shoo, "Israel financed Hamas as they were founded", which was well over 20 years ago. That's entirely different from the UN support that continues to this day.

The UN has become a joke and I would not be even slightly upset if the US pulled out. Far too many dictatorships and false democracies hold crucial positions within this farce of a global government. These are the same dictatorships that constantly point their fingers at the US at all times claiming that we're the true evil, all while committing atrocities in their own backyards. I don't like Bush, but we're in BIG trouble if we become a lap-dog for the UN.

Well, if anyone asked for an explanation why Americans are so disliked in this world, here it came.

Thanks to veritas93 and especially Muaddib, fighters for ignorance at it's best. I am glad ATS always comes up with people who really know about politics, history and learned to take an objective position.
Way above, like always.

Shoo, you so boldly throw insults and yet dare to call me ignorant? LOL. It seems like I am part of a vast minority on this site; a minority who refuses to live in a utopian fantasy and who refuses to practice such discreditting behaviors such as... insulting others without provocation. In fact, the majority of posts that I've seen on this site are incredibly biased, yet you claim that these people truly understand history? I also can't BELIEVE that you even dare suggest that YOU are objective lol. You've made your stance very clear on a number of threads, and objective is the last adjective that I'd use to describe you.

I have no intention of commenting on any of muaddib's comments as we do disagree from time to time. However, I won't let you get by with insulting my intelligence when you are one of the more biased members whose opinions I've had the misfortune of reading. Your anti-american rhetoric grew tiresome many posts ago. My desire for complete independence from the UN is an opinion based upon MY desires and not ignorance. Just because you disagree, doesn't mean that you're right and I'm wrong. I've had a number of foreign friends: 3 from Lebanon, 1 from Sudan, 2 from Nigeria, 1 from Ireland, 2 from Scotland, 1 from Germany, 1 from Greece, 4 from Chile, 2 from Argentina, 6 from Vietnam, 2 from S. Korea and I could go on and on. Not ONE of them disliked Americans in general. Not one. Seems like you're projecting your opinions upon the rest of the world. You've only made yourself look worse by posting that comment.


edit to change "2 from Lebanon" to "3 from Lebanon". I had forgotten one

[edit on 8-10-2004 by veritas93]

Originally posted by shoo
Well, if anyone asked for an explanation why Americans are so disliked in this world, here it came.

Thanks to veritas93 and especially Muaddib, fighters for ignorance at it's best. I am glad ATS always comes up with people who really know about politics, history and learned to take an objective position.
Way above, like always.

well if this was the reason why americans are so disliked then i would be very proud of being disliked....but i think it has more to do with a lack of intelligence on the part of the folks doing the disliking.

[edit on 9-10-2004 by keholmes]

Originally posted by shoo
Well, Peter Hansen explained it quite good. I bet most people in this world believe that Hamas is a terrorist organization and just that.

It's a very uncomfortable situation for this organization called Hamas. First of all it's membership consist not only of good people, a reasonable amount are possible or active terrorists. On the other side the Hamas is the only operational aid organization left to Palestinians.

It's somehow like wearing the Red Cross and shooting as soon as somebody turns around. But what to do? Nobody can tell them to split into the comfortable Hamas and the terror Hamas. A tough decission, without Hamas Palestinians will starve and suffer life even more as they already do.

Though, who cares?
What goes around comes around. The Israelis financed Hamas as they were founded and messed up the relationship to them. So bad luck.

But the parallel is interesting. The UN and the Israelis financed Hamas and Hamas members in hope of helping the situation. Both failed and still fail.

The US also funded and trained what would become Al Qaeda a decade down the road in order to counterbalance Soviet Power. So are you saying, oh, bad luck to all the people killed by Al Qaeda? In the last few decades intelligence agencies have been doing a lot of dumb stuff that has backfired on their native countries. That doesn't somehow excuse the terrorists because they were initially funded by the government they are seeking to overthrow. That is not an acceptable moral position--oh, government "X" funded my organization 20 years ago and so therefore it is acceptable to blow up people from that country. You cannot justify that.

Also the attempt to justify Hamas because they provide services is sort of weak, no? I mean Israeli Arabs get far better services by being well behaved members of a civil society. I could take the equally cynical position and say, oh, bad luck for all the well meaning Arabs because they live in a neighborhood controlled by Hamas and thus they are denied the infrastructure enjoyed by their Arab brethren with Israeli citizenship. I could say oh well, bad luck for all the Arabs in Gaza, Samaria and Judea because they were denied entry into their respective countries of Jordan and Egypt some 50 years ago. But despite this all sucking terribly for all people involved, none of it justifies any form of terrorism. Hey, the Taliban provided services too. Great. The best service they can provide their people is to stop firing missles, stop sniping and maybe go become friends with the people over in Gush Katif, who, if they weren't so scared for their safety, would probably be willing to help teach the people of Gaza how to develop a thriving community. So drop the BS argument--it doesn't matter where the money came from. It is never right to blow up buses, hotels, office buildings, embassies, etc. If Hamas spent all that money ear-marked for bombs on books (and I don't mean these textbooks they got from an SS-sale) and education and infrastructure, people would probably quickly loose the desire to blow things up and would probably enjoy leading normal lives alongside Israel.

anyone who uses or endorces terror has got to have a screw loose.

Its a little like Sinn Fein the political un armed wing of the IRA, true they dont use weapons and use deplomacy instead but they still endorce terror they still have terrorists among their ranks and they still should have all been strung up for their pains.

Originally posted by veritas93
Shoo, you so boldly throw insults and yet dare to call me ignorant? LOL. It seems like I am part of a vast minority on this site; a minority who refuses to live in a utopian fantasy and who refuses to practice such discreditting behaviors such as... insulting others without provocation. In fact, the majority of posts that I've seen on this site are incredibly biased, yet you claim that these people truly understand history? I also can't BELIEVE that you even dare suggest that YOU are objective lol. You've made your stance very clear on a number of threads, and objective is the last adjective that I'd use to describe you.

I have no intention of commenting on any of muaddib's comments as we do disagree from time to time. However, I won't let you get by with insulting my intelligence when you are one of the more biased members whose opinions I've had the misfortune of reading. Your anti-american rhetoric grew tiresome many posts ago. My desire for complete independence from the UN is an opinion based upon MY desires and not ignorance. Just because you disagree, doesn't mean that you're right and I'm wrong. I've had a number of foreign friends: 3 from Lebanon, 1 from Sudan, 2 from Nigeria, 1 from Ireland, 2 from Scotland, 1 from Germany, 1 from Greece, 4 from Chile, 2 from Argentina, 6 from Vietnam, 2 from S. Korea and I could go on and on. Not ONE of them disliked Americans in general. Not one. Seems like you're projecting your opinions upon the rest of the world. You've only made yourself look worse by posting that comment.

Did I say "hated" or "disliked"?
Your post bases on the assumptions that I said "hated" and my attitude is completly anti-american. I dislike the current government and most Americans here, as their knowledge about the Arabian world stands in no comparison to their hatred against the Arab world. Less Knowledge, more hate. What should I like about that?

I stated many times that I am fed up with the current government and if it change I will probably start to like your country as I liked it before and so will others.

Your list of friends is nice and those lists is friends in those countries you met there during the last 2 years?
In 2001 I saw no dislike or even hate for America, the current situation evolved since the beginning of the war in Iraq. Even Afghanistan was seen as needed by everyone I know no matter where he comes from.

@understand history
My comment about the ATS membership was completly ironic. That's one thing I will never understand, ATS members have a complete missunderstanding for ironic and sarcastic comments, they take them seriously most of the time. That's no offense, probably just a cultural difference.
But what do you expect, should I be happy that most of the people here claim to have experience yet I never came across anybody who was into politics or military operations that exceeded standard services or even into secret services?
I would be happy to have people working for the press here. ATS members take press releases and stories like they represent 100% truth, yet somebody who has worked in certain fields of press knows that there is a minimum of 30% percent of lie in e.g. military press releases etc.

I have the feeling I am talking to normal office workers and wifes who just want to make their lives a little bit more interesting. It's strange that people come up and say they were in military and a month later they tell a completly different lifeline which fits to the current thread.
Don't feel attacked now, it's just an observation.

@rg73
I didn't say that I support the terrorist wing of Hamas. I just showed up the inner diversion of Hamas. So why are you writing several lines assuming I am supporting it?

Because I said I don't care? This doesn't mean I am supporting those actions.


Why the late post?
I was in Amsterdam yesterday and met a good friend of mine and his new wife. They are spending their honeymoon in Amsterdam and Paris, will return next week to Israel where they live and where I will meet them next year.

[edit on 10-10-2004 by shoo]

[edit on 10-10-2004 by shoo]

I wouldn't have felt attacked shoo if you had not directly stated that I was a "fighter for ignorance at its best". Those are harsh words that YOU wrote and cannot take back.

I didn't say "hate" either. I said "dislike Americans in general", and yes I've made at least half of those friends in the last two years and maybe a quarter of them in the last year alone.

As for "expertise" the entire point of this site is for anyone and everyone to share opinions and perspectives. I don't think that there are any real requirements for membership nor is such a thing even suggested anywhere on the site. Btw, what position do YOU hold? Are YOU an "expert"? If so, please share some of your credentials with us.

As for irony and sarcasm... sorry but my sense of humor is usually quite dulled when I'm being personally insulted.

Originally posted by shoo
Well, if anyone asked for an explanation why Americans are so disliked in this world, here it came.

Thanks to veritas93 and especially Muaddib, fighters for ignorance at it's best. I am glad ATS always comes up with people who really know about politics, history and learned to take an objective position.
Way above, like always.

Sure shoo....let's all accept terrorist organizations and call them legitimate so the world accepts us and everyone likes us........(now that is a sarcastic comment shoo....but I guess it lost its meaning for you..) Please...do not talk about "objective position" or ignorance...... as you are showing that you don't even know what they mean.....

Calling people ignorant and the reason why americans are disliked because we don't accept terrorist organizations as legitimate........you have got to be kidding.....or perhaps you should stop using whatever you are using......

[edit on 10-10-2004 by Muaddib]

Shoo – do you mean if we start to get more compliant to your views you will start to like us, maybe….mighty grand of ya buddy. *Brown nose* *brown nose* how ya like me now. As for vast Arabic knowledge were did you come by it, just wondering?

If you saw no dislike or even hate for America prior to 2001 then that is due to not having looked or not paying attention…there were over 100 terrorist organizations with stated goals of injuring Americans or American interests going waaaaay back. Well prior to 2001.

Just a question on not meeting anyone from the military who exceeded standard services or secret services….just what other experience do you want to see? Admin.

Keholmes, for sure not everybody got his experience out of special services or lets say jobs. But exactly how is e.g. a cleaning personal the right person to discuss about near east problems which also intelligence services do not understand properly. I though the motto is abovetopsecret and denyignorance and not "hey, I have no clue on this topic but will shout in anyway".
Personally I have about 2/3 of the forums which I don't visit here( ) just for the simple reason I have no knowledge about that. Okay, sometimes I laugh about those secret societies posts but hey, those are not my business and I don't stick to those.

About the hate:
Care to see the difference between terrorists and the average people! Sure, before 2001 there have been terrorists as well but especially islamic terrorists had minor support in most countries but Palestinia.
Even after Afghanistan people in the Arab world supported the USA, it just got lost with the war in Iraq. Hey, the threat was there all the time, I agree with you but it's undenyable that the Bush administration made it even more worse.
Would a democrat have it done better? Who knows, that's speculation and I don't want to take a side on this one.

Muaddib, you take it easy. Just taking my simple demand for opening your eyes and seeing that Hamas is in a troubled situation and turning it into a bold sarcastic statement.
I never supported the action of the terrorist part of the Hamas nor did I say that the USA should accept Hamas, so what's the deal with your message? You dreamed while writing it? Recycle bin.

@veritas
My personal experience includes active and old operational contacts to the Mossad, the CIA, the SS, the old Iraqi secret service and the MFA of Iran. I didn't pursue a career in any of those but due to some weired circumstances I am in from the outside, not belonging to anybody, which makes it even more interesting.

Originally posted by shoo
…………….My personal experience includes active and old operational ………….. the SS…………….

just a question, if as you stated in previous posts that your knowledge of Nazis germany came from your grandfather who didn’t join in…why didn’t you mention your personal experience with the SS?

Well if that is the case then the US taxpayer is supporting Hammas. I would demand the withdrawal of the United States from the UN immediately! This pisses me off but is not a surprise, maybe eyes will be opened to the 'real' UN.

I see the line between terroist and whatever else was being blurred again. spindoctors are being paged as we speak!

Terrorist is a word that has been hijacked by the ideologues to get people to associate specific things with, like: 9/11, targetting civilains (this IMO is the biggest fallacy as the army has targetet civilians since time in memoriam), not having a valid claim or mandate etc.

The paramilitary groups are acting on behalf of a opressed and disgrunteled people, so they usually have aid and support programs. the the case of the IRA they have a political wing in Sinn Fein (allthough this was denied any legitimacy by the brits for a long time).