Indoctrination of the Young and Belief System Retention

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
And this is the problem with atheism in general. It is practiced by a segment of societies more smug egotists. They spit when you mention Christianity without considering how it enriches the lives of its practitioners. Its value, like the value of anything, is in the eye of the beholder.

Richard Dawkins is a brilliant mind. But he got hung up on his ego, I think. The critical failure of atheism is that it not only fails to encourage, but actually discourages inner reflection. It applies the logical thought process of science while embracing the philosophical queries of existentialism.

I agree with this 100%, you're spot on, I think. The New Atheists are dominated by narcissists run amok, and I think that's ultimately to everyone's detriment. Even not taking into account questions of allegiance to God, it is difficult to see society itself headed in a good direction at the behest of these dispassionate egoists.

Humans are slaves to their fads. The current fad is to be socially disassociated. Clothing is gawdy, or just plain ugly. The term "hipster" is a good insight into the narcissistic bent of the modern intellectual. People tend to, as always but to a greater degree now, embrace being different just for the sake of being different. whatever it is you do, they will do it different and it will be too underground for you to know about.

In this way, atheism is more relating to supporting a fad (just like wearing non-prescription, "fake" glasses, or the "ironic" jacket that is so ugly even homeless people won't wear it, or those gawd awful crocheted, yarn pants).

When your generation tends to display a bent for fads that buck the system for the sake of simply bucking the system, I can easily see how atheism can be so popular. It is the spiritual equivalent of getting an obnoxious Beiber haircut just to piss of your parents.

But when you talk to your average atheist, they are usually so young as to exclude any possibility of atheism being anything other than another fad, or a transitory state.

adj

... the other side of indoctrination is the societal, rather than parental, form, which is what I view the Atheist Summer Camps to be. If you watch through that video, you'll see that they seem to talk the good talk, but though they claim they "just want children to have a chance to decide for themselves,"

Yes, the "unicorn problem" is bluntly an indoctrination doled out in the guise of "critical thinking."

Also, the exercise seems to be the kind of experience anybody can have for free on the internet. Right here at ATS, for example.


bigfatfurrytexan

Your personal journey is a nice illustration of the existence of a "four corners" in belief space, where atheists, agnostics, deists and pantheists meet, like Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico and Utah. It's hard to tell who's who there, and the same person can easily migrate from one category to another, while hardly moving at all.
-

Originally posted by eight bits


bigfatfurrytexan

Your personal journey is a nice illustration of the existence of a "four corners" in belief space, where atheists, agnostics, deists and pantheists meet, like Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico and Utah. It's hard to tell who's who there, and the same person can easily migrate from one category to another, while hardly moving at all.
-

edit on 10-7-2012 by eight bits because: of whimsy

Four corners....that is an interesting hyperbole. You are right. And it gets me in hot water with just about every belief system as I tend to argue on behalf of whoever the under dog in that particular debate. An ATS member ihave known for YEARS (my oldest online "friend") stopped talking to me because she believed me to be a Christian hater. This after years of coming to the defense of Christians in another forum that was invaded by atheists.

Yep those darn atheists..... Dont they know you cant win if you dont play.

Everyones picking sides saying all the others end up in hell. The atheist will just have to stand on your grave in awe of the power of self-delusion.

Originally posted by Wertdagf
Yep those darn atheists..... Dont they know you cant win if you dont play.

Everyones picking sides saying all the others end up in hell. The atheist will just have to stand on your grave in awe of the power of self-delusion.

I believe in God. And I don't believe in Hell. There are many, many more like me, sprinkled throughout the eons.

Your statements above show exactly what I am talking about. You have obviously thought this through well enough to understand that what "everyone else" calls Christianity is obviously wrong and full of strangeness. But you haven't actually informed yourself beyond what you (in an uninformed state) think about matters. With only a few notions about the matter as your context, you have made a decision with finality.

And then you follow this up with the mocking of "standing on our graves in aw of the power of self delusion".

If you REALLY want to find truth, then actually look for it. Don't assume that it is a zero sum reality with Christianity and atheism.

Besides, it never ceases to amaze me how much atheism hinges on science. And how science, in its most essential state, is nothing more than true religion. Somewhere along the way science stopped searching for the mind of God, and started searching for the supremacy of man.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Science stopped searching for god the moment god fearing people stopped burning us for our sins (which I attribute to the evolution of our minds, at least the majority of humanity).

Science searches for anserwes but it does not concern itself with god, because with most of its studies - it's not needed. We won't stop smashing bozons simply because we might think there is a god somewhere beneath it.

And being egoistical has absolutely nothing to do with personal dogma. I know roughly the same amount of religious pr(cks as egoistical atheists.

I really don't know why people would like science to be interested in god. It's not a philosophy or religion. It's good to have things that are not tained with god. In my country it's almost sickening.

Originally posted by krzyspmac
I really don't know why people would like science to be interested in god. It's not a philosophy or religion. It's good to have things that are not tained with god. In my country it's almost sickening.

I don't know that I'm all that keen on science being interested in God, but I'm a bit unhappy with those who think that science replaces or subverts God. They are two different things -- science is interested in the "how", faith is interested in the "why", so by claiming to replace God, science diminishes the "why" to "there's no reason, it just worked out that way."

That's not much of an answer, if you ask me, and for the theist, it's the equivalent, to an atheist, of a theist saying God dug the oceans out with his fingernail. If you find that idea ludicrous, you have the beginnings of an understanding of why theists think science's answer to "why" is ludicrous.

Originally posted by krzyspmac
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

Science stopped searching for god the moment god fearing people stopped burning us for our sins (which I attribute to the evolution of our minds, at least the majority of humanity).

Science searches for anserwes but it does not concern itself with god, because with most of its studies - it's not needed. We won't stop smashing bozons simply because we might think there is a god somewhere beneath it.

And being egoistical has absolutely nothing to do with personal dogma. I know roughly the same amount of religious pr(cks as egoistical atheists.

I really don't know why people would like science to be interested in god. It's not a philosophy or religion. It's good to have things that are not tained with god. In my country it's almost sickening.

Science IS philosophy. The meaning of the word "philosophy" is "lover of wisdom" or "one who seeks to know". The term was coined by Pythagoreas, who set the wheels of science in motion when he solved the square root of pi.

Ever since, and even before, men have observed nature, seeking to understand it. Originally they sought to understand it to be closer with God. To see the logic behind Gods creation, to revel in his genius. Along the way, the goal instead became to elevate man.

Now, I am not saying that this is wrong. But what is has done is remove the element of wonder from scientific endeavors. When you talk with anyone of a scientific bent, they no longer profess to "seek to know". Instead, they claim to know, and to shout you down when you don't know what they do.

That, my friend, is not being a lover of wisdom. That is being a lover of ego.

ETA: God, real true God, taints nothing. Everything exists because of him. Now, this is not the God of your Sunday church service. That is a story with another purpose. Religion, like science, goes bad when people starting claiming to know stuff, rather than admitting that they don't know but are searching.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Many people have searched the mind of god... and found that the only way to save their children from the devil was to murder them. Or that the only way to save the world from damnation was to burn all the witches and kill all the heretics. Dont you find it strange that religion CONSTANTLY loses ground? The fools who built their sand castles on the shores of such pitifull religious delusions try to justify the time they have wasted.

In a few years everyone will know what idiocy religion is... and all those who would rather die than live in a world without their moronic fantasies, will. The world will be a whole lot lighter.

Originally posted by Wertdagf
Dont you find it strange that religion CONSTANTLY loses ground?

Well, it's been predicted for more than 2,000 years, so no, I don't find it strange.

Don't you find it strange that it is happening simultaneous to us apparently wrecking the planet?

In a few years everyone will know what idiocy religion is... and all those who would rather die than live in a world without their moronic fantasies, will. The world will be a whole lot lighter.

And what is going to happen in a few years to bring about this revelation? Planning a new Inquisition?

Originally posted by Wertdagf
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

Many people have searched the mind of god... and found that the only way to save their children from the devil was to murder them. Or that the only way to save the world from damnation was to burn all the witches and kill all the heretics. Dont you find it strange that religion CONSTANTLY loses ground? The fools who built their sand castles on the shores of such pitifull religious delusions try to justify the time they have wasted.

In a few years everyone will know what idiocy religion is... and all those who would rather die than live in a world without their moronic fantasies, will. The world will be a whole lot lighter.

"Religion" has nothing to do with God. Common misconceptoin among all of humanity. Religion is all about man, not God.

God is not some dude in flowing white robes. Or maybe he is. But my point is, none of us really knows. All anyone knows is what they feel. And, given how hard the average atheist fights for their "belief" (which they profess is actually a lack thereof), it would seem that there is some level of "feeling" inside them as well. The fight is defensiveness. Again, common among all of humanity.

I am not a fundie. I haven't been in a Church of any kind other than because my wife dragged me to a wedding and a couple of funerals since I was a kid. Even then it was coerced via social pressure (they don't call this the buckle of the bible belt for nothing). There is no love for any man of the cloth with me, other than respect he would earn outside of his clerical duties.

I am also not some new age fruitcake that feels vibes and crap. I am a person who has systematically explored religions from every culture I have been able to find. I base my opinions on this matter on years and years of my own study and my own experience. All I ask is that before someone takes off the gloves to defend their lack of belief, that they at least put in the same work before making their determination.

One thing I can say for sure: what you believe today should never be what you believe for tomorrow. Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds (or, so they say).

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


"God is not some dude in flowing white robes. Or maybe he is. But my point is, none of us really knows. All anyone knows is what they feel." -Bigfatfurrytexan

LAUGH ^^^^

So the next time a child is murdered by a religious person claiming to hear the voice of god... we will all put your stamp of "well maybe their right" approval on it.

After all how can we say not to murder your children if god whispers it in your ear?

Originally posted by Wertdagf
After all how can we say not to murder your children if god whispers it in your ear?

Is it better to murder people because science tells you to?

Human Testing, the Eugenics Movement and IRBS

Where was the scientific morality then?

My opinion on this subject follows, it was a response to a member on another forum when this topic was raised:


So coming from a family with little to no interest in religion, you settled on the dominant religion of the country you live in. While you seem to have a firm grasp on your religion of choice, it would be readily assumed the path to your choice was relatively free of any opposition from family friends and peers. May I ask how many Religions you studied prior to your chosen faith? If other faiths were studied, was it done with the help of the specific clergy of each religion, and not filtered through the belief system of Christianity?

This is what I meant when I eluded to Roy’s statement of “who would change their belief system if they found a better one” That, takes real courage and is one of the most difficult choices you can ever make in your life, if you come from a family and or a culture with a specific ingrained faith.

People tend to follow the path of least resistance when “choosing” religion, children growing up will likely continue the religion they were brought up in, or they will just become inactive in their faith. Some of course become agnostic, or atheist, but the very few, will actually choose a different religious path than the one of their parents. Those that do turn away from their faith will likely face severe hardships and possible family breakup due to their choices made. Here in America we are “free” to choose our faith, but how free are we when so much pressure from family and even society pushes us to maintain the faith of our families and our culture?

Choice of religion, in my view should never be chosen by a Parent. The choice should be made by the child when he is able to make his or her own informed decision.

If a child is raised to be a specific faith, any faith, when he or she comes of age, parents should be completely willing to accept the fact that the child may not believe as they do. In fact they may choose a faith in complete opposition to the one they were raised in.

How dare we as parents to force a specific belief system on our children? Whether Christian, Muslim, Buddhism, Hinduism, Mormon.

How dare we as parents to ostracize our children and allow the breakup of families due to a family member choosing a differing faith.

We live in America and are “free” to choose, but we enslave ourselves in terms of religion, by the control we exert over our kids even into adulthood.



When I pass on and if I find myself before a supreme being, and he or she asks me why I did not put my faith in him or her as my personal savior, this will be my response:

Well I was raised Christian, but in my early twenties I decided to look elsewhere to be sure my faith in you from a Christian standpoint was accurate and true. Looking closely at Christianity from the outside in, I found the history of Christianity lacking in that the foundation was easily traced back to mythology thousands of years prior. So even though it felt good and right to worship with others of like faith, I could not continue on a path that I found to be based on emotion and not logic and reasoning. So I spent many years looking into other faiths and Belief systems and again, I could not find real truth in any of those faiths. I tried Lord, I really really did. In the mean time, I continued in charity work even donating my labor and employees and materials from my business in the building of various churches who asked for assistance, I donated heavily to Habitat for Humanity, I donated money to various other charities I felt were worthy, I never passed a homeless on the street without attempting to help in some way. I have never stolen, been a drunkard, or cheated on my wife, not once. We raised three young men to be good people with compassion for others. I have tried to turn away anger by calm responses. I have made many mistakes but I have tried to live a peaceful life, help others and serve as an example to others in a positive way.

Looks like I was wrong Lord, but in the short 75 years on this planet, I did not have the time to research the hundreds of different religions to ensure that I was following proper protocol. As I stated earlier I spent years studying other faiths, not all of course, but found them all lacking for one reason or many.

Life happened. I had a family to raise properly, I had a life to live properly, and this takes time.

So I throw myself on your mercy, Lord, if I am chosen not worthy by the life I have led, then send me on my way. You are not deserving of the type of man I am.




I would like to think that first, I have an open mind and second I have an analytical mind. With my interest in UFOs and the paranormal, some would consider me to not have an analytical mind I suppose, but the evidence for something beyond us to me is pretty profound. The religious path just doesn’t jive for me. Not that I have not tried, I spent many years searching for truth, and prior to th

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

Originally posted by Wertdagf
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

Many people have searched the mind of god... and found that the only way to save their children from the devil was to murder them. Or that the only way to save the world from damnation was to burn all the witches and kill all the heretics. Dont you find it strange that religion CONSTANTLY loses ground? The fools who built their sand castles on the shores of such pitifull religious delusions try to justify the time they have wasted.

In a few years everyone will know what idiocy religion is... and all those who would rather die than live in a world without their moronic fantasies, will. The world will be a whole lot lighter.

"Religion" has nothing to do with God. Common misconceptoin among all of humanity. Religion is all about man, not God.

God is not some dude in flowing white robes. Or maybe he is. But my point is, none of us really knows. All anyone knows is what they feel. And, given how hard the average atheist fights for their "belief" (which they profess is actually a lack thereof), it would seem that there is some level of "feeling" inside them as well. The fight is defensiveness. Again, common among all of humanity.

I am not a fundie. I haven't been in a Church of any kind other than because my wife dragged me to a wedding and a couple of funerals since I was a kid. Even then it was coerced via social pressure (they don't call this the buckle of the bible belt for nothing). There is no love for any man of the cloth with me, other than respect he would earn outside of his clerical duties.

I am also not some new age fruitcake that feels vibes and crap. I am a person who has systematically explored religions from every culture I have been able to find. I base my opinions on this matter on years and years of my own study and my own experience. All I ask is that before someone takes off the gloves to defend their lack of belief, that they at least put in the same work before making their determination.

One thing I can say for sure: what you believe today should never be what you believe for tomorrow. Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds (or, so they say).

Very eloquently put sir.

I think the true anti-theist, if there is such a thing, will have to be in constant upkeep regarding his beliefs and doctrines, lest he becomes what he dislikes the most—religious. It seems obvious that religion doesn't just extend to those who believe in God, but those who believe, defend and fight for their labels.

reply to post by crawdad1914


The rest follows:


The religious path just doesn’t jive for me. Not that I have not tried, I spent many years searching for truth, and prior to that I was raised to believe a certain way, and I “knew” with all my heart I had truth. I felt something inside that seemed profound, but that feeling I later realized was emotion. I only discovered this by allowing my open mind to recognize that just being raised in a certain faith, does not mean it is “the one true faith” I had many questions that were not answered, by those of higher learning in our faith, and my questioning of other belief systems were filtered through the dogma and viewpoint of literature and counsel of those same men of higher learning in my present faith, the faith I had been raised in. I knew that if Religion and God were the most important aspect of my life, than I owed it to myself and my family to look to ensure that my belief system was accurate. It was not enough to trust in the fact that because I was raised in a certain way, and I was born in a certain part of the world, I automatically had the truth. I also wanted to know that those feelings in my heart as I worshipped were not just emotion, but a connection with God. For me to know that this was due to having true religion I needed to check out my faith and possibly others.

I did this. First checking into my faith, and reading all the literature, that I was not supposed to read, studying all the history behind my religion, “Jehovah’s Witnesses”. I then moved on to study Standard Basic Christianity, since most Christians consider the JWs to not be Christian, I looked into the Muslim Faith the Mormons, Buddhism, Hinduism, and a few others. I also studied a lot of ancient Mesopotamian and Egyptian mythology. I alluded to my findings earlier in regard to the roots of the major religions going back to that era; I won’t argue this point since I think people need to come to their own conclusions concerning the veracity of their chosen religion. The information is out there for anyone who has an interest. They may or may not find it valid in regard to what they believe. In this process, I lost the majority of my friends and some of my family members, who could not accept that I could believe differently than them. To this day, My Brother outside of Business will have nothing to do with me. Taking the path I took was probably the hardest thing I have ever done. It would have been far easier to not question my faith.

Faith for me has to have a basis in fact. If we are to base our entire life on a certain belief system, and view others who do not have that same faith as damned, we had better be sure that we are in the right, and that we took the time to really search out truth. Because all over this planet, there are entire cultures who “know” they have the truth, and look down on others for not believing the same as them. In my opinion, whether you admit it or not, you are judging others by the very fact they do not conform to your faith.

I don’t have a certain faith or Religion, but I sense there is something beyond all this, and that gives me hope. So all I can do after looking at the major religions is say, that they are man based and all have some good and bad in them, much like all of us. That is my conclusion, many will disagree of course.

RMA and Roy have impressed the hell out of me as to their grasp of scripture, and their ability to back of their belief system. I don’t agree with their conclusions, but their knowledge of scripture to me is amazing.

But again for me, the most fascinating is when people can actually go out of their comfort zone and research other faiths in an unbiased way and come to the conclusion that another belief system is better than the one they were raised in. Evidently finding these people are like pulling teeth, I have asked a few times. Maybe others don’t feel comfortable discussing this topic, I get that. I really enjoy hearing others experiences, I opened up here, I know Roy has in the past, does anyone else want to share their experiences in regards to how they found “truth”?

Scripture quoting is fun, but the psychology behind faith I find most intriguing.

Originally posted by crawdad1914
How dare we as parents to force a specific belief system on our children? Whether Christian, Muslim, Buddhism, Hinduism, Mormon.

I don't think that I forced my beliefs on my daughter, but I think that it would be very disingenuous to a) hide one's beliefs from one's children and refuse to take them to church when you go; b) become agnostic while they are growing up to avoid influencing them; or c) repeatedly pound it into their head that just because you think something is truth, they should not.

Now that she is at university, we are different religions, but that's because I changed mine in the last year and she has chosen to remain in the church she grew up in. I have no issue with that, and if she decided to become a Hindu or an atheist or whatever, that's okay, I'll love her all the same.

Originally posted by Wertdagf
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

"God is not some dude in flowing white robes. Or maybe he is. But my point is, none of us really knows. All anyone knows is what they feel." -Bigfatfurrytexan

LAUGH ^^^^

So the next time a child is murdered by a religious person claiming to hear the voice of god... we will all put your stamp of "well maybe their right" approval on it.

After all how can we say not to murder your children if god whispers it in your ear?

If your mind is not discriminating enough to distinguish between an insane person responding to the symptoms of their insanity, and someone of sound mind acting their convictions, then perhaps I am not the one to discuss this with you.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by crawdad1914
How dare we as parents to force a specific belief system on our children? Whether Christian, Muslim, Buddhism, Hinduism, Mormon.

I don't think that I forced my beliefs on my daughter, but I think that it would be very disingenuous to a) hide one's beliefs from one's children and refuse to take them to church when you go; b) become agnostic while they are growing up to avoid influencing them; or c) repeatedly pound it into their head that just because you think something is truth, they should not.

Now that she is at university, we are different religions, but that's because I changed mine in the last year and she has chosen to remain in the church she grew up in. I have no issue with that, and if she decided to become a Hindu or an atheist or whatever, that's okay, I'll love her all the same.

You sound like a great Father!

reply to post by adjensen


I haven't given my son any specific input. When we discuss religion/spirituality, I provide input from a wide arrange of beliefs, usually prefaced with "Well, so and so has this view..." and then we discuss it. Mostly I want to hear his thoughts, and if he has none to encourage him to find some.

He is quick to say things that are outrageous. And I am quick to counter with a requirement that he inform himself before his next outburst.