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Does God love Satan?

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posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 01:10 PM
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Originally posted by greyer

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by greyer
 


If Satan exists... hes simply doing the job he was assigned...



Still where did you hear that? A person, probably a zealous one. Strong concrete spiritual evidence says that there is physicality (energy), time/space, and a living soul that is one and the same for all lifeforms. This has been proven through analysis. The biggest thing I am learning now, is why did I ever listen to anybody when I was growing up.

This whole thing about Satan and deception, it is all a crock.


I didn't "hear" that from anyone... that is my opinion... even a theory.

I don't listen to what other people have to say my friend... feel free to look over my threads and see if you can find someone elses opinion in my thoughts...

i go to the source, and form my own opinions...

And my opinion of Satan... is that he doesn't exist, because if you read what the bible says about him... its clearly a representation of materialism.... not an entity


edit on 10-7-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)




posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 01:32 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 

Dear Akragon,

Again it is a great pleasure. I hope to get a little more of your thinking about something in your last post.

And my opinion of Satan... is that he doesn't exist, because if you read what the bible says about him... its clearly a representation of materialism.... not an entity
Let's say, for the moment, that an actual physical being does not exist if it is a representation of some idea or principle. Does George Washington not exist because he is a representation of honesty, or John Wayne as a representation of Americanism? I needn't multiply examples. But I think Satan can both exist, and be a representation of an evil principle.

My second question concerns what Satan represents. I thought a decent argument could have been made out that he represents pride. I'm not sure if changing "materialism" to "pride" would make a significant difference to your thinking, it was just something that struck me as I was looking at your comments.

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 01:48 PM
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reply to post by charles1952
 


Hello my friend... i hope you are well.


Let's say, for the moment, that an actual physical being does not exist if it is a representation of some idea or principle. Does George Washington not exist because he is a representation of honesty, or John Wayne as a representation of Americanism? I needn't multiply examples. But I think Satan can both exist, and be a representation of an evil principle.


Both of those people actually existed... people saw them. Theres tons of evidence they existed... and died.

but... there is no evidence for the existance of Satan aside from the bible... and within the bible he is a representation of Materialism... When he "tempted" Jesus in the wilderness... he offered Jesus material possessions... which Jesus had no need of... Now if one thinks about it... Jesus went out alone... likely to contemplate and meditate. He realized that he could have litterally taken over the world if he wanted to... he had the power to do it... but he had no wants aside from his fathers will.

Now the question is... was he tempted by an entity, or was it his own natural desires? Even the desires of the flesh... hard call.

As far as evil is concerned... Evil comes from humans... without humans evil would not exist on this planet. Thus evil is not only very subjective... but it likely does not exist. What one calls evil is mearly selfishness examplified.


My second question concerns what Satan represents. I thought a decent argument could have been made out that he represents pride. I'm not sure if changing "materialism" to "pride" would make a significant difference to your thinking, it was just something that struck me as I was looking at your comments.


Pride is a very human emotion... the reason you say this is because of the story of Satans Fall... I don't believe this actually happened...

Its said that Satans pride caused God to eject him from heaven... So Satan thought he could run things better then God... I have serious issues with this line of thinking... now of course the story has many different ways of being told.... One version even goes so far as to say that Satan tried to over throw God... To me that is ridiculous... that is similar to an ant trying to over throw the owner of the ant farm...


The only logical explanation of Satan (if he exists at all) is that he has a job that he was given by God... to attempt to turn man from God.

In that case... his name fits his job


edit on 10-7-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 02:28 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 

Dear Akragon,

Thank you for asking. I am always well on days when I get to share your thoughts.

I think we're going to have some small difficulty eventually, because the Bible is the principal, if not only, source for information about Satan. So when we say that Satan is a representation of materialism because of the evidence in the Bible, and we say the evidence in the Bible for satan's existence is woefully insufficient, it seems, at first glance, that we are taking the proof from one proposition to disprove the other.

I agree with you concerning Jesus' temptations, as a human he had all the temptations that human flesh is heir to.

Now the question is... was he tempted by an entity, or was it his own natural desires? Even the desires of the flesh... hard call.
You're right, but except for the question of Satan's existence, I'm not sure it matters. Even then, could Satan have acted through the flesh and not as a physically observable being? I think so. So the matter remains unresolved, but I am reluctant to reinterpret the Bible, especially the New Testament, unless there is some strong reason for it and I don't see that reason in the desert temptation story.


As far as evil is concerned... Evil comes from humans... without humans evil would not exist on this planet.
In a sense, yes, humans do evil things. But like the desert temptation story, did the desire to do evil come from Satan? It certainly seems possible. Then the question is "Will humans give in to it?" As we know, they often do.

Thus evil is not only very subjective... but it likely does not exist.
I am convinced that anwhere on the planet, and in the universe, can be found God's law forbidding theft, hatred, murder, etc. I call the drive to violate God's law "Evil," do we have a semantic problem?

What one calls evil is mearly selfishness examplified.
Perhaps we are in agreement here, I'm not sure. Selfishness is placing oneself and one's desires as the only god a person bows to. It seems the opposite of "Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven."

Pride is a very human emotion
I agree, but is it solely human? Does God have no emotions? Are we sure His angels don't?

One version even goes so far as to say that Satan tried to over throw God... To me that is ridiculous... that is similar to an ant trying to over throw the owner of the ant farm...
Is it also similar to a group of Colonels trying to overthrow their general and Government?

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 02:30 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 




Both of those people actually existed... people saw them. Theres tons of evidence they existed... and died.


Could the same be said of God? Or, even Jesus?



but... there is no evidence for the existance of Satan aside from the bible...

edit on 10-7-2012 by jhill76 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 02:47 PM
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Originally posted by jhill76
reply to post by Akragon
 




Both of those people actually existed... people saw them. Theres tons of evidence they existed... and died.


Could the same be said of God? Or, even Jesus?



but... there is no evidence for the existance of Satan aside from the bible...

edit on 10-7-2012 by jhill76 because: (no reason given)


No...

The proof Jesus existed lies within ones heart... This is why i stress to people to read HIS words...

His words vibrate within your heart unlike any other mans words before or since his life... and i believe they can be found outside of the bible as well...

As HE said...

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

And as for God... IF any man/woman seeks him with all their being... He will give you the proof needed to believe and to know he exists.

God knows all of us... unfortunatly not many know him.


edit on 10-7-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 03:04 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 




And as for God... IF any man/woman seeks him with all their being... He will give you the proof needed to believe and to know he exists.


Could the same be said for Satan? Could "you" ask for proof that he is real?



posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 03:27 PM
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reply to post by charles1952
 



I think we're going to have some small difficulty eventually, because the Bible is the principal, if not only, source for information about Satan. So when we say that Satan is a representation of materialism because of the evidence in the Bible, and we say the evidence in the Bible for satan's existence is woefully insufficient, it seems, at first glance, that we are taking the proof from one proposition to disprove the other.


Even the satanic bible holds true to "materialism" being the main desire... though im not sure how reliable it is...

They worship an entity that stresses "self worship"... essentially making themselves an idol. Not the entity they worship...

Some also claim to have spoken with "satan"... I have never had any contact with spiritual entities/beings... so i can only speculate about their existance... i do not discount the possibility though


You're right, but except for the question of Satan's existence, I'm not sure it matters.


It actually doesn't...


Even then, could Satan have acted through the flesh and not as a physically observable being?


Possibly...


I think so. So the matter remains unresolved, but I am reluctant to reinterpret the Bible, especially the New Testament, unless there is some strong reason for it and I don't see that reason in the desert temptation story.


Jesus called Peter Satan... Do you believe he was possessed by the devil at that moment, or that he was being selfish? Jesus knew peter hated the idea of him leaving them in the way he fortold...

He was being selfish... and rebuked Jesus for what he said...

See how Jesus replies...

31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

32 And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him.

33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.



I am convinced that anwhere on the planet, and in the universe, can be found God's law forbidding theft, hatred, murder, etc. I call the drive to violate God's law "Evil," do we have a semantic problem?


not at all... but again without us on this planet everything works in harmony with nature... Evil comes from within man... It comes from the heart, just as love comes from within... but im sure where sentient life exists the same laws apply


Perhaps we are in agreement here, I'm not sure. Selfishness is placing oneself and one's desires as the only god a person bows to. It seems the opposite of "Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven."


Right...



Does God have no emotions? Are we sure His angels don't?


This depends on your view of God... IF you believe in the God of the OT... then He is jealous, envious, hateful, vengeful, wrathful... etc etc...

The true God is above such petty human emotions...

Have you read this per chance?
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I don't know if angels exist either honestly... same as satan. Though i believe if they did they would be a little more intelligent then humans... i believe pride would be below them.

But what do i know....


Is it also similar to a group of Colonels trying to overthrow their general and Government?


hardly...




posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 03:28 PM
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Originally posted by jhill76
reply to post by Akragon
 




And as for God... IF any man/woman seeks him with all their being... He will give you the proof needed to believe and to know he exists.


Could the same be said for Satan? Could "you" ask for proof that he is real?


Im sure its possible.... I've seen a few interesting videos of people that have claimed to talk to satan... and they were Very convinced....

Who am i to say they're lying?




posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 03:29 PM
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Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by jhill76
reply to post by Akragon
 




And as for God... IF any man/woman seeks him with all their being... He will give you the proof needed to believe and to know he exists.


Could the same be said for Satan? Could "you" ask for proof that he is real?


Im sure its possible.... I've seen a few interesting videos of people that have claimed to talk to satan... and they were Very convinced....

Who am i to say they're lying?



No, I'm using your stance, that if you ask God for proof, he will show it. I am asking you personally, could you ask Satan for proof that he is there?



posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 03:35 PM
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Originally posted by jhill76

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by jhill76
reply to post by Akragon
 




And as for God... IF any man/woman seeks him with all their being... He will give you the proof needed to believe and to know he exists.


Could the same be said for Satan? Could "you" ask for proof that he is real?


Im sure its possible.... I've seen a few interesting videos of people that have claimed to talk to satan... and they were Very convinced....

Who am i to say they're lying?



No, I'm using your stance, that if you ask God for proof, he will show it. I am asking you personally, could you ask Satan for proof that he is there?


Let me get this straight... You're asking me to ask him if he exists?

I don't see how that would work... I've asked angels to show themselves... nothing. Same for "ghosts" or spirits... Nothing...

I would not invite an "entity" into my life either way... especially one with a bad rap...

As far as i know of demons and spirits that is required...




posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 03:41 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by SwissMarked
 


What hogwash! Please tell what "Christian/Gnostic" books were found at the Dead Sea caves that are mysteriously missing from today's Bible! That's a complete lie.


Really... how about the Book of Enoch... last I checked that's not in my "Bible"...

What about the Prophecies of Daniel, Ezekiel, and Jeremiah...

That doesn't even take into account the books found within the Nag Hammadi Library such as the Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of Truth... so before you start going around calling others "liars" based on your ignorance educate yourself...



posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 03:46 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 




I would not invite an "entity" into my life either way... especially one with a bad rap...


But, for him to have a bad rap as you say, that must mean you must believe what others have written about him? Or, am I wrong.

Also, you stated this about God, asking him. You say you don't hold other thoughts, so by implication, you must have done this yourself?



Let me get this straight... You're asking me to ask him if he exists?


You said to ask God. I am asking, have you ever done this to him.



posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 03:53 PM
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reply to post by jhill76
 



But, for him to have a bad rap as you say, that must mean you must believe what others have written about him? Or, am I wrong.


I know of what others said about him... i am forced to leave the possibility of his existance open... but i maintain that the entity "satan" does not exist until im shown otherwise... What can be read about him points to materialism, not an actual entity


Also, you stated this about God, asking him. You say you don't hold other thoughts, so by implication, you must have done this yourself?


I don't understand im sorry...

I don't "hold other thoughts"?



You said to ask God. I am asking, have you ever done this to him.


Asked satan if he exists?

No i haven't... Why rock the boat IF he actually does exist... right?




posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 03:57 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 




I don't understand im sorry... I don't "hold other thoughts"?




I don't listen to what other people have to say my friend... feel free to look over my threads and see if you can find someone elses opinion in my thoughts...


I was using the above, maybe I didn't say it correctly. I am asking, did you go to God and ask him for proof? You stated people can do this, I am asking how did you come to this conclusion. Did you do it, or have seen it in action?



posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 04:02 PM
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Originally posted by jhill76
reply to post by Akragon
 




I don't understand im sorry... I don't "hold other thoughts"?




I don't listen to what other people have to say my friend... feel free to look over my threads and see if you can find someone elses opinion in my thoughts...


I was using the above, maybe I didn't say it correctly. I am asking, did you go to God and ask him for proof? You stated people can do this, I am asking how did you come to this conclusion. Did you do it, or have seen it in action?


Ahh... i get ya.

In that particular case i mean i don't adopt others ideas into my own beliefs... i go to the source... The poster implied i "heard what i wrote" from someone...

And Yes... i asked God for proof of his existance.


edit on 10-7-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 04:22 PM
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Originally posted by SwissMarked

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by SwissMarked
 


What hogwash! Please tell what "Christian/Gnostic" books were found at the Dead Sea caves that are mysteriously missing from today's Bible! That's a complete lie.


Really... how about the Book of Enoch... last I checked that's not in my "Bible"...

What about the Prophecies of Daniel, Ezekiel, and Jeremiah...

That doesn't even take into account the books found within the Nag Hammadi Library such as the Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of Truth... so before you start going around calling others "liars" based on your ignorance educate yourself...



You said the Dead Sea scrolls. The Nag Hammadi find was in an entirely different COUNTRY (Egypt). So please tell what i am lacking? At the caves of Qumran there were only OT books found, they date before the birth of Christ! And Enoch isn't a "Christian/Gnostic" book. The Jews do not even consider it inspired Scripture.


edit on 10-7-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 04:42 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by SwissMarked

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by SwissMarked
 


What hogwash! Please tell what "Christian/Gnostic" books were found at the Dead Sea caves that are mysteriously missing from today's Bible! That's a complete lie.


Really... how about the Book of Enoch... last I checked that's not in my "Bible"...

What about the Prophecies of Daniel, Ezekiel, and Jeremiah...

That doesn't even take into account the books found within the Nag Hammadi Library such as the Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of Truth... so before you start going around calling others "liars" based on your ignorance educate yourself...



You said the Dead Sea scrolls. The Nag Hammadi find was in an entirely different COUNTRY (Egypt). So please tell what i am lacking? At the caves of Qumran there were only OT books found, they date before the birth of Christ! And Enoch isn't a "Christian/Gnostic" book. The Jews do not even consider it inspired Scripture.


edit on 10-7-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)


So your Bible doesn't contain the Old Testament... good for you...

The Book of Enoch is widely considered to be a Gnostic teaching... and my post was clearly stating that the King James Version is not the definitive be all end all you stated it to be and not all "God breathed" scripture is contained within it...



posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 04:50 PM
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reply to post by SwissMarked
 


Gnostic loved doesn't = Gnostic made. Enoch was alive before the flood. Gnosticism wasn't even around then. Jude quotes from Enoch in his NT epistle and Christian-Gnosticism was basically invented by Marcion and his followers in the 2nd century AD. Irenaeus has quite a bit to say about both in his book "Against Heresies vol 1" which is late 2nd century. So what "Christian-Gnostic" books are you talking about that were found at the Qumran caves are missing from the Bible? This is breaking news. The Gnostic books at Nag Hammadi didn't exist yet at the time to NT was completed with Revelation. And I never said my Bible doesn't have the OT. Lets not straw man shall we?



posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 08:50 PM
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Originally posted by Akragon
I didn't "hear" that from anyone... that is my opinion... even a theory.

I don't listen to what other people have to say my friend... feel free to look over my threads and see if you can find someone elses opinion in my thoughts...

i go to the source, and form my own opinions...

And my opinion of Satan... is that he doesn't exist, because if you read what the bible says about him... its clearly a representation of materialism.... not an entity



Sorry I didn't catch you were metaphorically speaking my friend, I agree. The world is full of liars, but yet also hence the world is full of people who don't believe, who would have guessed?



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