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Abductees Are A Fraud

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posted on Jul, 8 2012 @ 08:45 PM
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reply to post by adeclerk
 


The same reason science #s on evidence that proves humans were here a lot longer then our science tells us maybe? It gets buried and ridiculed in mainstream science.




posted on Jul, 8 2012 @ 09:03 PM
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Originally posted by adeclerk

Originally posted by TKDRL
There have been plenty of unexplainable implants to name just one direction to look.......

If that were true, the whole of science would be turned upon it's head. Why hasn't the scientific community taken notice?

Be easy.


Oops! It looks like you just made the logical fallacy of an appeal to authority. lol

Be easy



posted on Jul, 8 2012 @ 09:09 PM
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Originally posted by TKDRL
The same reason science #s on evidence that proves humans were here a lot longer then our science tells us maybe?

What evidence would that be? Is it independently verifiable, from peer-reviewed sources, etc? How long does science tell us, and how long is your science claiming? Genuinely curious here.

Originally posted by TKDRL
It gets buried and ridiculed in mainstream science.

I would suspect this would be because of the lack of valid methods and such, like with the creationist "scientists" and climate "scientists" who deny climate change.

If an "implant" was shown to be something out of the ordinary, this would be immediately noticed by the scientific community, there is no way to ridicule concrete evidence. All they would have to do is show that an implant is something out of the ordinary. The evidence would be undeniable. Why isn't this the case?

Be easy.



posted on Jul, 8 2012 @ 09:15 PM
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Originally posted by trysts

Originally posted by adeclerk

Originally posted by TKDRL
There have been plenty of unexplainable implants to name just one direction to look.......

If that were true, the whole of science would be turned upon it's head. Why hasn't the scientific community taken notice?

Be easy.


Oops! It looks like you just made the logical fallacy of an appeal to authority. lol

Be easy

How? By pointing out that scientists would be studying such a phenomenon if it were extant, since it would literally change a large portion of our scientific knowledge?

Think about the waves that the possible discovery of the Higgs-boson is causing, evidence of a true extraterrestrial implant would be similar.

Peace and truth, brother.



posted on Jul, 8 2012 @ 09:23 PM
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reply to post by adeclerk
 


I pointed you in the right direction. If you choose to follow it up, is totally upon you. Do you care enough to research it? If you do, well then one angle I will point you at is human remains and artifacts found in mines. These mines, the minerals we were taking were far older than humans supposedly, yet we found remains, and evidence of humans. That is but one angle. There have also been human footprints found in rock far too old according to out current human timeline. Honest scientists have had their careers buried for unearthing evidence contrary to what our current science says. This has gone on forever, many of the scientists that we quote as fact today, were shunned and even killed back in the day, for going against the grain at the time.



posted on Jul, 8 2012 @ 09:26 PM
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Originally posted by adeclerk

Originally posted by trysts

Originally posted by adeclerk

Originally posted by TKDRL
There have been plenty of unexplainable implants to name just one direction to look.......

If that were true, the whole of science would be turned upon it's head. Why hasn't the scientific community taken notice?

Be easy.


Oops! It looks like you just made the logical fallacy of an appeal to authority. lol

Be easy

How? By pointing out that scientists would be studying such a phenomenon if it were extant, since it would literally change a large portion of our scientific knowledge?

Think about the waves that the possible discovery of the Higgs-boson is causing, evidence of a true extraterrestrial implant would be similar.

Peace and truth, brother.


There you go again! Another logical fallacy! This time it's the "mind projection fallacy", where the way you see the world is the way the world really is. It's pretty easy to go into a thread about alien abductions, and be all proud of yourself for pointing out logical fallacies. But it's not so easy to escape logical fallacies yourself.

And, btw, I'm a sister, not a brother



posted on Jul, 8 2012 @ 09:27 PM
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Originally posted by adeclerk

Originally posted by Orkojoker
Here's a long set of interviews by a number of people who know much more about these claims than the average person does.

An appeal to authority followed by using a youtube video as evidence does not make up for the lack of a single piece of verifiable evidence that an "abductee" has ever left this planet. Modern forensics can detect chemicals that came from a bullet's cartridge under a suspect's fingernail and yet no physical evidence for the existence of alien visitors or abductors has ever been recovered. Seems a little suspect.

Be easy.


Who said it was alien visitors? And as far as an appeal to authority, I typically defer more to people who have studied a subject than those who haven't when seeking information. Don't you?



posted on Jul, 8 2012 @ 10:54 PM
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reply to post by adeclerk
 


I find it interesting that you make such assumptions. I cannot wear wristwatches or carry mobile phones close to me. They malfunction. Wristwatches quit entirely, the battery drained and the perpetual calendar mysteriously shows a random date at random intervals. How do you explain that?

You cannot state the "little things" that I may or may not sense/detect/feel otherwise. You have not done any sort of inquiry. You somehow majestically state what is and what is not from your perch on high. It must be a glorious view you have from there.

That was a crash and burn. Wanna try again, with humility and genuine curiosity this time?



posted on Jul, 8 2012 @ 11:00 PM
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reply to post by Diablos
 


And I quote:


Aliens and UFOs: This forum is dedicated to the discussion of historic and contemporary events related to extraterrestrial encounters, UFO sightings, and speculation about related subjects. Discussion topics and follow-up responses in this forum will likely tend to lean in favor of the existence of extraterrestrials and the related conspiracies, scandals, and cover-ups. Members who would seek to refute such theories should be mindful of our tradition of supporting the examination of the extraterrestrial phenomenon on the related conspiracy theories, cover-ups, and scandals. Replies that make fun or otherwise ridicule and demean those posting honest experiences and/or questions will be removed. Members who post such responses repeatedly will be banned.


These experiences cannot be verified. I could obviously go to have my personal situation explored by some lab somewhere, but I know what happens. I don't care whether others believe it or not. Why in the world would I go out of pocket to have some stuff verified and validated by skeptical dolts who won't believe it anyway? Why in the world would their belief change a thing at all in my world?

You have every possibility to search out your own evidence. You live in this same world. The fact that you have had no such experiences does not mean they don't exist. The fact that you choose to ignore those reports by others and relegate them to "fantasy" simply, to me, means that you're of considerably limited intelligence and awareness. Your cognitive skills are lacking. You are otherwise a negative and hostile person because you attack those who state things you cannot digest. Sucks to be you.

Don't attack others unless you're prepared to receive the same.



posted on Jul, 8 2012 @ 11:23 PM
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Originally posted by TKDRL
I pointed you in the right direction. If you choose to follow it up, is totally upon you. Do you care enough to research it? If you do, well then one angle I will point you at is human remains and artifacts found in mines. These mines, the minerals we were taking were far older than humans supposedly, yet we found remains, and evidence of humans.

Those are some extraordinary claims. If the evidence to support those claims is as readily available and reliable as you seem to implicate, I would be more than happy to evaluate any sources you can provide.



Originally posted by TKDRL
Honest scientists have had their careers buried for unearthing evidence contrary to what our current science says. This has gone on forever, many of the scientists that we quote as fact today, were shunned and even killed back in the day, for going against the grain at the time.

Yeah...this is pure conspiracy nonsense. Facts are not a democracy, truth either is or is not. If something is able to be verifiably demonstrated, in a controlled experiment, anyone with the same tools available to them (other scientists) can verify the results. This happens all of the time, its how science works. The research gets published in journals, other scientists review the methodology, etc, and the results are further verified (peer-review). Or maybe it is all a conspiracy to keep some people in the know for whatever reason.



posted on Jul, 8 2012 @ 11:30 PM
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Originally posted by CosmicEgg
I find it interesting that you make such assumptions. I cannot wear wristwatches or carry mobile phones close to me. They malfunction. Wristwatches quit entirely, the battery drained and the perpetual calendar mysteriously shows a random date at random intervals. How do you explain that?

Surely you could demonstrate such a thing, or can you not video tape yourself because of the interference?
I wonder how the magnetic field is strong enough to drain a watch battery, but not interfere with your computer. Anyway, feel free to demonstrate this.

Seriously though, if this is true you should get yourself studied. You could fundamentally alter what we know, if you are truly anomalous.


Originally posted by CosmicEgg
You cannot state the "little things" that I may or may not sense/detect/feel otherwise. You have not done any sort of inquiry. You somehow majestically state what is and what is not from your perch on high. It must be a glorious view you have from there.

I'm sure you're perceiving something. I'm equally as sure that it isn't a magnetic vibration. Don't take personal offense.

Originally posted by CosmicEgg
That was a crash and burn. Wanna try again, with humility and genuine curiosity this time?

I am genuinely curious if you can demonstrate anything you've stated here.



posted on Jul, 9 2012 @ 12:22 AM
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reply to post by adeclerk
 


Right here..

Again, why would I trouble myself to satisfy people who are fundamentally doubters rather than people who are much more interesting to me: Experiencers. I am not the least bit interested in people who walk around the planet for decades having the same opportunities to experience things, to observe things, to sense things, and to acknowledge those things rather than shutting off those experiences in favor of artificial "validation" by a set of fellow doubters. Can you see where I'm coming from?

Basically, get your own damn experiences. It's not that bloody hard.

I have a whole lot of experiences that I simply cannot relate here, primarily because of the likes of you. There are too many of your kind out there.

Again, we who know, know. Those of you who are open to the experiences are still intellectually viable. Those skeptics and doubters...well, I have no time for you.

It's easy to go through your life blinkered. You have that choice. You may feel clever and superior, but that's just your perception. It's by no stretch any sort of truth.



posted on Jul, 9 2012 @ 12:32 AM
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Originally posted by CosmicEgg

These experiences cannot be verified.

Ergo, they have no basis in reality.



Originally posted by CosmicEggI could obviously go to have my personal situation explored by some lab somewhere, but I know what happens. I don't care whether others believe it or not. Why in the world would I go out of pocket to have some stuff verified and validated by skeptical dolts who won't believe it anyway? Why in the world would their belief change a thing at all in my world?

Good for you. But please don't label rational and logical people who require extraordinary evidence before accepting extraordinary claims as "skeptical dolts", that is a reflection of your own ignorance more than anything else.


Originally posted by CosmicEggYou have every possibility to search out your own evidence.

The only evidence to abduction cases is where an abductee recounts their abduction, i.e: eye-witness testimony. I'm sorry, but most rational people require more than anecdotal evidence to accept something as fantastic as entities from an advanced civilization traveling to Earth and kidnapping a person.



Originally posted by CosmicEggYou live in this same world. The fact that you have had no such experiences does not mean they don't exist.

Please show where I stated or implied that because I have not been abducted, I don't believe they are real. I did not claim nor allude to any such thing. However, my claims were more along the lines of due to the lack of any tangible evidence, the abduction experience may have more to do with psychological or physiological that is either understood well by modern science (hallucinations or other mental illness) or not. The simplest explanation is often the best, and aliens is far from being the simplest explanation in the abduction phenomenon.


Originally posted by CosmicEggThe fact that you choose to ignore those reports by others and relegate them to "fantasy" simply, to me, means that you're of considerably limited intelligence and awareness. Your cognitive skills are lacking.

Ad-hominem fallacy. The fact I require hard evidence to believe these abductions implies that my intelligence is limited and my cognitive skills are lacking? Wow, the irony!


Originally posted by CosmicEggYou are otherwise a negative and hostile person because you attack those who state things you cannot digest. Sucks to be you.

Please show where I have attacked anyone or where I have been hostile. Unless the fact I don't believe in the abduction phenomenon somehow classifies me into the "hostile" group and is considered as an attack on abductees. If that is the case, then you are clearly not mature enough to have this debate.



Originally posted by CosmicEggDon't attack others unless you're prepared to receive the same.


Again, bring your evidence where I have "attacked" anyone. And as for the gist of your post, this is the UFO forum. People come here to post UFO's and bring forth their evidence to be examined by other users who then try to debunk it. If you want to talk about a personal experience in which you have no compelling evidence that can be scrutinized, then this is not the forum for that. The appropriate forum for that is the Gray Area.



posted on Jul, 9 2012 @ 12:57 AM
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reply to post by Diablos
 


It is neither logical nor rational to doubt the experiences of others simply because you have not experienced the same yourself. I tell this quite often to doubters: My son is colorblind. He has trouble with reds, greens, and browns. He cannot see pink at all. Depending on its shade he may see a grayish tinge to something, but it will never appear as pink to him. Does this mean pink does not exist? Does he walk around telling people who see pink that they are living in a world of fantasy? Is he gullible if he acknowledges the existence of pink while being unable to experience it himself? How does one prove the existence of pink?

Your personal inability to acknowledge the experiences of others is at issue here. Your "requirement" for hard evidence is really your own affair. I'm not here to jump through your hoops. You flatter yourself.

There is no hyphen in ad hominem. Please do point out exactly where this applies in my previous. I'm interested now. I don't think you actually know what it is. However, this is *your* relevant passage:



Please show where I have attacked anyone or where I have been hostile. Unless the fact I don't believe in the abduction phenomenon somehow classifies me into the "hostile" group and is considered as an attack on abductees. If that is the case, then you are clearly not mature enough to have this debate.


I can discuss freely here because I am an experiencer. Once again I will attach this text here and ask that you not only read but also comprehend its meaning.



Aliens and UFOs: This forum is dedicated to the discussion of historic and contemporary events related to extraterrestrial encounters, UFO sightings, and speculation about related subjects. Discussion topics and follow-up responses in this forum will likely tend to lean in favor of the existence of extraterrestrials and the related conspiracies, scandals, and cover-ups. Members who would seek to refute such theories should be mindful of our tradition of supporting the examination of the extraterrestrial phenomenon on the related conspiracy theories, cover-ups, and scandals. Replies that make fun or otherwise ridicule and demean those posting honest experiences and/or questions will be removed. Members who post such responses repeatedly will be banned.


Do you see any suggestion that this forum is for debunking experiences or reports? Do you note that members who repeatedly demean those posting will be banned?

Pray continue!



posted on Jul, 9 2012 @ 01:03 AM
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Even if abduction is something that happens purely in the mind, isn't that still incredibly fascinating? No need to try to out people as frauds, when even discounting aliens, there's still some incredibly interesting things to be learned about the human condition.



posted on Jul, 9 2012 @ 01:05 AM
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Originally posted by CosmicEgg
Right here..

Incredible, the evidence of your claim is a link to a post you made today of your claim.

Originally posted by CosmicEgg
Again, why would I trouble myself to satisfy people who are fundamentally doubters rather than people who are much more interesting to me: Experiencers.

Be interested in truth, man, get it out there. If what you experienced is truly what you think it is, your experience could turn the scientific world upside down.

Originally posted by CosmicEgg
I am not the least bit interested in people who walk around the planet for decades having the same opportunities to experience things, to observe things, to sense things, and to acknowledge those things rather than shutting off those experiences in favor of artificial "validation" by a set of fellow doubters. Can you see where I'm coming from?

I see exactly where you are coming from. If you have nothing to hide, you should not fear healthy skepticism.

Originally posted by CosmicEgg
Basically, get your own damn experiences. It's not that bloody hard.

I have a whole lot of experiences that I simply cannot relate here, primarily because of the likes of you. There are too many of your kind out there.

I can understand why the snake oil salesman wouldn't want a skeptic questioning the validity of his product.


Originally posted by CosmicEgg
Again, we who know, know. Those of you who are open to the experiences are still intellectually viable. Those skeptics and doubters...well, I have no time for you.

It's easy to go through your life blinkered. You have that choice. You may feel clever and superior, but that's just your perception. It's by no stretch any sort of truth.

Hey, I guess some people just have access to special knowledge that others will never understand. The rest of us tend to live in a world of facts and reality.

Would still be more than happy to see some evidence of your ability to make watches and cell phones not work.



posted on Jul, 9 2012 @ 01:08 AM
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Originally posted by snusfanatic
Even if abduction is something that happens purely in the mind, isn't that still incredibly fascinating? No need to try to out people as frauds, when even discounting aliens, there's still some incredibly interesting things to be learned about the human condition.

I completely agree! But to start learning about the abduction phenomenon, we need to remove all of the muck. The lack of physical evidence supports that nothing physically is happening to people, but that doesn't mean that the abduction phenomenon itself isn't interesting.

Though most are probably just putting one over on us.
edit on 7/9/12 by adeclerk because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 9 2012 @ 01:16 AM
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reply to post by adeclerk
 


I have written about the watch previously. I have written about a lot of my experiences previously. You can search them. You love that scientific research and proof stuff. Go find the info!

Why would my story about the watch *and the computer* not be sufficient? Do you think I'm going to produce receipts or other physical evidence for you? And really, you want me to seek out some lab somewhere to make measurements and devise test to quantify stuff for you to scrutinize with your razor-sharp mind...eh? Really? Delusions much? You wouldn't know relevant data from hogwash. Obviously.

See, this is the thing. I know what I've experienced. I know my family history. I know what I know. Your lack of acceptance of the information imparted by those who know more than you do by virtue of *direct experience* (read that again for impact, please) only points to a deficit of genuine curiosity and observational skills.



posted on Jul, 9 2012 @ 01:24 AM
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Originally posted by CosmicEgg
I have written about the watch previously. I have written about a lot of my experiences previously. You can search them. You love that scientific research and proof stuff. Go find the info!

This makes your anecdote more true how?

Originally posted by CosmicEgg
Why would my story about the watch *and the computer* not be sufficient?

Keyword in bold.

Originally posted by CosmicEgg
Do you think I'm going to produce receipts or other physical evidence for you? And really, you want me to seek out some lab somewhere to make measurements and devise test to quantify stuff for you to scrutinize with your razor-sharp mind...eh? Really? Delusions much? You wouldn't know relevant data from hogwash. Obviously.

No need to get testy. You said your body makes watches and cell phones malfunction, I'm asking you to demonstrate such. It shouldn't be very hard to get a video of a cell phone not working properly near you, I wonder why you are so reluctant.



Originally posted by CosmicEgg
See, this is the thing. I know what I've experienced. I know my family history. I know what I know. Your lack of acceptance of the information imparted by those who know more than you do by virtue of *direct experience* (read that again for impact, please) only points to a deficit of genuine curiosity and observational skills.

You've got stories, I realize. As to why you are adamant that what you and your family have "experienced" are exactly what you think they are, in spite of the fact that no evidence for such things exist, is beyond me. But I have a feeling you aren't very interested in the truth if it the evidence isn't consistent with what you want to think happened.

That is, if you even experienced anything at all.



posted on Jul, 9 2012 @ 01:29 AM
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Originally posted by CosmicEggIt is neither logical nor rational to doubt the experiences of others simply because you have not experienced the same yourself.


Erm...what? Do you even know what it means to be rational or logical? Rationality is not accepting something at face-value. The truly logical person is the sceptic who requires tangible evidence and data to accept extraordinary claims as fact, not anecdotal evidence, which again is the worst type of evidence in science. You know what science is, right? In science, to establish facts about nature, scientists don't take everything at face value but rather use experiments and replicate those experiments in other labs and review the data to see if it fits the theory, and then theory becomes an established fact of the world. Do you have a problem with this methodology? Would you rather prefer if scientists took everything at face value and accept anecdotes as fact, after all, that is the only rational and logical way to approach the subject according to you?


Originally posted by CosmicEggII tell this quite often to doubters: My son is colorblind. He has trouble with reds, greens, and browns. He cannot see pink at all. Depending on its shade he may see a grayish tinge to something, but it will never appear as pink to him. Does this mean pink does not exist? Does he walk around telling people who see pink that they are living in a world of fantasy? Is he gullible if he acknowledges the existence of pink while being unable to experience it himself? How does one prove the existence of pink?

This is a very poor analogy in supporting your argument. Your son suffers from a condition that does not allow him to observe that which is observable to most people, despite the fact that there is well established fact and evidence within physics of colors and how objects gain their color (which is an intrinsic property of light, not the object itself). As for abductions, it is not established at all in science nor is there any tangible evidence to prove it even exists, anecdotal evidence notwithstanding.


Originally posted by CosmicEggYour personal inability to acknowledge the experiences of others is at issue here. Your "requirement" for hard evidence is really your own affair. I'm not here to jump through your hoops. You flatter yourself.

I'm sorry, but in science and the factual world, evidence is not subjective or open to interpretations. Either something can be repeatedly tested or experimented to prove its validity, or the theory is wrong. It is that simple. Of course, if anecdotal evidence is enough to convince you of this phenomenon, then that is your prerogative. However, most rational people will require some form of tangible evidence that can be determined to prove, without a shadow of a doubt, that the abductee was truly abducted by aliens.


Originally posted by CosmicEggThere is no hyphen in ad hominem. Please do point out exactly where this applies in my previous. I'm interested now. I don't think you actually know what it is. However, this is *your* relevant passage:

Very well.



Originally posted by CosmicEggThe fact that you choose to ignore those reports by others and relegate them to "fantasy" simply, to me, means that you're of considerably limited intelligence and awareness.



Originally posted by CosmicEggYour cognitive skills are lacking.



Originally posted by CosmicEggYou are otherwise a negative and hostile person because you attack those who state things you cannot digest


Instead of pointing out why the methodology in requiring solid, tangible evidence to support the abduction phenomenon, you go on a tirade of personal attacks. That is ad-hominem fallacy.


Originally posted by CosmicEggI can discuss freely here because I am an experiencer. Once again I will attach this text here and ask that you not only read but also comprehend its meaning.


Good for you. Likewise, I can remain skeptical and request evidence of your experiences and choose to disbelieve in your experiences should you not provide sufficient evidence. If you are not a fan of this, the gray area is the section for you.




edit on 9-7-2012 by Diablos because: (no reason given)



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