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What possible use is the Higgs Boson??? And who cares?? Not me.

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posted on Jul, 8 2012 @ 02:03 AM
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Originally posted by Moduli

Originally posted by mbkennel
The basic laws of how to describe nature with quantum fields and the difficulty of practical interpretation is the same now as it was in 1955.


That's true. However, I'm sure you fail to realize that quantum mechanics and its "interpretations" were fully understood by the 1950s. Indeed, research in quantum mechanics pretty much stopped around the 1930s, as it was more or less completely understood by then. (Aside from crackpot research, of course, which continues to this day. But that goes without saying.)


the fully correct way to mixing quantum mechanics with fields wasn't fully worked out until 40's and 50's (QFT) but this wasn't a philosophical issue.

Later, the observation problems have been seriously investigated with the "decoherence" theory which was not known in the 1930's.


The people who don't understand quantum mechanics today are simply the people who don't understand things like Bayes' theorem, the Birthday Paradox, or the Monty Hall Paradox. (For those who bother to actually learn what these things are: recall that there is nothing needed to be random in any way in the Birthday or Monty Hall paradoxes, the weirdness is all due to the conditional-ness of the measurements. Quantum mechanics turns out to be inherently random, and that's fine, but it has absolutely nothing at all to do with its "weirdness." And this has certainly been understood since the late '30s or early '40s by any remotely competent physicist.)


Well, actually understanding QM is quite a bit harder than Bayes' theorem and Monty Hall.

The real question is explaining the mechanism that sets up the problem of observables in such a way that explaining them requires the conditional arguments that get used, and how that comes about from laws of physics which otherwise look like normal physics, with a time evolution operator on the left and "stuff" on the right hand side, i.e. the Heisenberg equation.

That is not easy to understand. The weirdness apparently comes about because the state is in a functional state and not classical finite-dimensional fields, and we just don't have any intuition about functional spaces. I don't have any intuitive explanation at all.

Personally I agree with Einstein that the Copenhagen Interpretation is un-physical mumbo-jumbo. But is very useful in most practical circumstances (small quantum systems get coupled to observing devices with 10^23 atoms) and so like Fermi's Golden Rules, is a very good approximation to what would otherwise be an intractable computation. Decoherence makes something which "looks" like collapse without requiring any extra physical assumptions (i.e. Copenhagen essentially asserts quantum states evolve and then the Hand Of God inserts an instantaneous projection operator, and then quantum mechanics starts up from there).



edit on 8-7-2012 by mbkennel because: (no reason given)

edit on 8-7-2012 by mbkennel because: (no reason given)

edit on 8-7-2012 by mbkennel because: (no reason given)

edit on 8-7-2012 by mbkennel because: (no reason given)




posted on Jul, 8 2012 @ 02:32 AM
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Originally posted by mbkennel
the fully correct way to mixing quantum mechanics with fields wasn't fully worked out until 40's and 50's (QFT) but this wasn't a philosophical issue.


But quantum mechanics is not the same thing as qft. Quantum mechanics was understood in the '30s, when its research turned into qed and then later gauge theories and qfts. And nothing about quantum mechanics was learned by these things, only convenient ways to repackage things to do relativistic stuff.



Later, the observation problems have been seriously investigated with the "decoherence" theory which was not known in the 1930's.


The details of decoherence weren't known then, sure, but the idea was. The idea was certainly known about and discussed by Heisenberg (and others) very early on. It's just that no one bothered to work out the details until much later, largely because it wasn't an experimentally useful thing to do at the time. (In fact, if you read the history of physics and see the old (and wrong!!) arguments that uncertainty is due to the fact that you can't measure a system without disturbing it--those ideas lead pretty quickly to the correct idea. They just didn't bother to name it anything fancy then, or figure out the details.)



Well, actually understanding QM is quite a bit harder than Bayes' theorem and Monty Hall.


Not really. To really understand those things you have to understand statistics, which means understanding linear algebra and multivariable calculus, which is the language of quantum mechanics. So I claim it's not much harder.

And the theory of qm is pretty simple. There is surprisingly little to it. Not any more than newtonian mechanics or GR or anything else.



The real question is explaining the mechanism that sets up the problem of observables [...]


There is no mechanism. This is the description. It is chosen by fiat. It's just a convenience, you didn't need to do it this way, and are free to do it any other consistent way you'd like. (It's just that none of those other ways are very useful! Well, even the explicitly conditional way isn't very useful, which is why Schroedinger or Heisenberg's equation is usually used to solve problems, rather than starting with Bayes' theorem.)


The weirdness apparently comes about because the state is in a functional state and not classical finite-dimensional fields


Nope, it does not. Classical physics has equivalent descriptions in terms of function spaces, too! Those don't look too weird. Classical descriptions in terms of conditional probabilities, however, do look weird! Of course, the Monty Hall problem is an example of this. It is not a coincidence that it looks weird in exactly the same way quantum mechanics is weird (imagine the problem is reworded so instead of opening doors and seeing if you've won a prize, you are choosing which particles to measure the spin of! It's the same problem!)



[...] quantum states evolve and then the Hand Of God inserts an instantaneous projection operator, and then quantum mechanics starts up from there


That's absolute nonsense. States evolve and are then evaluated as conditional probabilities. That's no different than using a set of initial conditions in a classical problem, time evolving it, and then using later conditions as new initial conditions. You could just as well evaluate the classical problem as a conditional probability contingent on the initial conditions and the state of the system as it's evolved to the current time. Identically to a quantum mechanics problem, and it could have just as weird properties!



posted on Jul, 8 2012 @ 03:53 AM
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I don't understand why they don't just realise that everything is
Connected. It's so obvious.

We are all energy even our thoughts are energy.

I believe that once in our history we knew these secrets and
Used them for knowledge.

I think that now we are manipulated via the medium of chemicals in our food
Certain signals etc etc as to dull our ability to tune into this energy like we used to.



posted on Jul, 8 2012 @ 04:11 AM
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Look...This is my opinion.

If an molecule is made of of atoms, and atoms are made up of other particles, the god particles and such...Isn't their smaller things that make up the god particle? If not then I am confused. This has to be a never ending cycle of searching.

Does no one else see this? For the god particle to exist their has to be other pieces/particles that exist to actually create the god particle.

Am I wrong? Is the Higgs Boson it?



posted on Jul, 8 2012 @ 04:35 AM
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Originally posted by iskander683

Please bear with me. I've been on here for some time but this is the first time I've posted a thread. If I co*k it up, I apologise! And if it's in the wrong forum, again, I apologise.

The thing that's been getting to me over the past week is the potential discovery of the Higgs Boson particle. The media and scientists have been raving about it and all through this I've been thinking - "Fine, but what use it this discovery going to be to humankind?"

To be honest, I just don't care about the Higgs Boson particle. I'm all for scientific endeavour, if there is going to be a benefit, but this elusive particle just doesn't do it for me. It's a complete and total waste of resources, time and money.

If any of you kind people can explain where the possible use for this particle is, I'm all too willing to listen. I am, however, fully expecting a lack of response due to the uselessness of the Higgs Boson particle.



Electricity was little more than a parlor trick when it was first discovered...No one thought of any real use for it for quite a while. Simply because you can't immediately see the use for something doesn't mean that someone with a bit more vision than yourself won't come along and find a use for it!

What's not exciting about a particle who's field gives things mass? If you could find a way to block that field then you could create ships that defy gravity and make 90 degree turns at thousands of miles an hour due to not being limited by inertia! (Kinda sounds like your typical flying saucer doesn't it?)



posted on Jul, 8 2012 @ 04:42 AM
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Originally posted by iskander683
To be honest, I just don't care about the Higgs Boson particle. I'm all for scientific endeavour, if there is going to be a benefit, but this elusive particle just doesn't do it for me. It's a complete and total waste of resources, time and money.

Lucky for you nobody listened to similar views when "discovering" the electron otherwise you would not have a computer with which to write your opinion.

Nobody can say for sure what will come of this. What we can say is that physicist can now concentrate on the existence of the higgs and unravel how the damn thing works.

IMHO : Since the Higgs imparts mass to matter then this opens up all sorts of possibilities. Imagine what the effect would be of modifying mass:
1. Anti gravity!
2. No inertia (Ie the inertial dampeners you see on Star Trek that allows accelration without falling over)
3. Faster than light travel. As you accelerate towards the speed of light your mass increases so quite clearly the higgs is involved. Switch that off and zoom no limit!



posted on Jul, 8 2012 @ 05:06 AM
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Hate to burst all your bubbles here but,
theres NO real BENEFITS from ANY
scientific discovery...

Well, there might be for some, like the
ppl able to afford it. But how is ie medical
discoverys BENIFICIAL for the masses?
If there are any practical uses made from
the disc of the higgs, i promis you, verry
few will actually benifit from it...



posted on Jul, 8 2012 @ 05:37 AM
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Originally posted by Sinny
Haha, that opinion is really well and truly ignorant!

I'm no scientist, but the fact its called the "God Partical" should give you a clue to how important it is!
They've been searching for this since they first discovered the Atom!

As I say, I'm not in the know, its on my to do list of things to study and understand..

But I think I may be correct in saying, its the thing that holds all things together!

The actual building block of life and mass.

Slowly but surely we are discovering how everything came to be.

Now... If only we could prove string theory..

That's all I know! But rest assured its a HUGE breakthrough, and a large STEP for MANKIND..

Appreciate it, I'm sure the scientist behind it have contributed more to life than you have


Just wow! I see your comment generated a ton of stars...but well.....to make a comment such as "I'm sure the scientist behind it have contributed more to life than you have" is a stretch don't ya think? I mean, you even said you're no scientist... right


If that is the case you're certainly no more significant than the individual you replied to... so do yourself a favor already and get over it...whatever it is in your life...cause it ain't this thread


BTW


edit on 7/8/12 by ThePublicEnemyNo1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 8 2012 @ 06:03 AM
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What good? Oh I dont know it could only be the first step to achieve faster than light travel you dumb $hit.



posted on Jul, 8 2012 @ 06:13 AM
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Originally posted by Miccey
Hate to burst all your bubbles here but,
theres NO real BENEFITS from ANY
scientific discovery...

Erm... I don't think I really need to point out the rather obvious benefits of science for you (clue: you're using one right now).


Well, there might be for some, like the
ppl able to afford it. But how is ie medical
discoverys BENIFICIAL for the masses?

Oh I don't know... having a greater than 25% of surviving into adult hood? Having a life expectancy of greater than 40 years old? Not dying from now easily treatable diseases? The list goes on...


If there are any practical uses made from
the disc of the higgs, i promis you, verry
few will actually benifit from it...

Sure, just like how no one benefited from electricity, relativity, QM and so on... funny how the greatest scientific minds are unsure of what the future holds but you're so sure that the Higgs Boson will hold absolutely no benefit to mankind whatsoever.



posted on Jul, 8 2012 @ 06:19 AM
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Originally posted by emberscott
Question was already posed towards peter higgs. This is his response.



That was funny.....



posted on Jul, 8 2012 @ 06:34 AM
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Originally posted by Sinny
Haha, that opinion is really well and truly ignorant!

I'm no scientist, but the fact its called the "God Partical" should give you a clue to how important it is!
They've been searching for this since they first discovered the Atom!

As I say, I'm not in the know, its on my to do list of things to study and understand..

But I think I may be correct in saying, its the thing that holds all things together!

The actual building block of life and mass.

Slowly but surely we are discovering how everything came to be.

Now... If only we could prove string theory..

That's all I know! But rest assured its a HUGE breakthrough, and a large STEP for MANKIND..

Appreciate it, I'm sure the scientist behind it have contributed more to life than you have


Hmm... You laugh at someone and call them ignorant...

And then go on to say that you know absolutely nothing about the subject but know that its important because it has "God" in the title and other people say it is!!

Don’t you think that a little... well... ignorant?



posted on Jul, 8 2012 @ 06:35 AM
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Originally posted by Sinny
Haha, that opinion is really well and truly ignorant!

I'm no scientist, but the fact its called the "God Partical" should give you a clue to how important it is!
They've been searching for this since they first discovered the Atom!

As I say, I'm not in the know, its on my to do list of things to study and understand..

But I think I may be correct in saying, its the thing that holds all things together!

The actual building block of life and mass.


Slowly but surely we are discovering how everything came to be.



They say that atoms are composed of 99.9% empty space.... Consciousness is what fills that empty space.

Consciousness is the 'thing' that holds us all together.

Peace
edit on 8/7/2012 by Kluute because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 8 2012 @ 06:41 AM
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Originally posted by john_bmth

Originally posted by Miccey
Hate to burst all your bubbles here but,
theres NO real BENEFITS from ANY
scientific discovery...

Erm... I don't think I really need to point out the rather obvious benefits of science for you (clue: you're using one right now).


Well, there might be for some, like the
ppl able to afford it. But how is ie medical
discoverys BENIFICIAL for the masses?

Oh I don't know... having a greater than 25% of surviving into adult hood? Having a life expectancy of greater than 40 years old? Not dying from now easily treatable diseases? The list goes on...


If there are any practical uses made from
the disc of the higgs, i promis you, verry
few will actually benifit from it...

Sure, just like how no one benefited from electricity, relativity, QM and so on... funny how the greatest scientific minds are unsure of what the future holds but you're so sure that the Higgs Boson will hold absolutely no benefit to mankind whatsoever.


Thats why theres millions of starving children, no clean water, no medicin,
no electricity and more in large parts of the world...Id say you are blind...



posted on Jul, 8 2012 @ 06:44 AM
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reply to post by iskander683
 



When they split the atom there were people who asked your similar questions... And there was those who replied with “are you mad... this will provide the world with free abundant and clean energy, it will usher in an era of peace, dogs and cats will live happily together and people will never get divorced”

And while there was potential in this sentiment, the reality was that man turned it into a weapon, blew up two citys, built unsafe reactors and put them near population zones, put them in the oceans, blew up atolls, turned the desert to glass, Three mile Island, Chernobyl, Fukushima, millions poisoned, milk contaminated, farmland ruined, cancer rates soaring... yeah, fantastic... cant wait to see what they do with the "God" partical.

The human race... always ask could we, never ask should we!!

Peace



posted on Jul, 8 2012 @ 06:53 AM
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reply to post by Miccey
 

That has NOTHING to do with science whatsoever. That is a political issue. To argue that "science has no benefits" is immensely stupid, especially since we are communicating on a direct offshoot of science!



posted on Jul, 8 2012 @ 07:25 AM
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I dont know how many CERN like facilities exist , if any , but i would like to see this discovery replicated at other facilities. This is a massive discovery , so big , that i have significant doubts. Some where , some how , a mistake was made.

I just want this to be replicated several times and not just once and at different facilities at that. Unless they already have.
edit on 8-7-2012 by milkyway12 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 8 2012 @ 08:27 AM
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Originally posted by Cassius666
What good? Oh I dont know it could only be the first step to achieve faster than light travel you dumb $hit.


How does that help the OP? Or you, me, or anyone else today? "We spent billions of dollars and found a particle we can't do anything with for about 50 years!" Science already knows how to achieve faster-than-light travel. Also, how to teleport. This discovery doesn't bring us any closer, however, to overcoming the time-dilation and heat generation of FTL, or billions of degrees of heat needed to break apart the atoms and technology to put them back together again for teleporting. Since you're obviously a genius, go ahead and invent that, will you? We'll wait.

OP, I get what you're saying. You want to know "what is our benefit now?", to which the answer is "zero". While I'm a science-oriented person myself, I found this discovery more of a "meh".

However, if they find what drives gravity, that will definitely be a day to celebrate.

/TOA



posted on Jul, 8 2012 @ 09:13 AM
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You ask: What possible use is the Higgs Boson


I reply: that subatomic particle will lead directly toward amassing the fabled Philosophers Stone

and from there creating wormholes/stargates out of nothingness...
that's all it will do and all it means



posted on Jul, 8 2012 @ 09:17 AM
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If I'm not completely mistaken, the Higgs Boson particle isn't the thing that gives mass its solidity. All it is, is a possible indication of the existence of the Higgs Field, which is a potential (not even a true theory, since it has no connecting dots to anything that has been positively verified as being real) that was suggested as the only plausible way that matter can collect - given the plausibility of particle theory as an accepted reality (which has never been actually proven or even fully defined as a true basis of material existence)

This particle's properties have been suggested and adjusted again and again, and it's only the latest version that has been targeted recently - which begs the question "is this latest version of the Higgs Boson the accurate assessment of the required physical properties, or will there be another set of criteria yet to emerge?". And within 1 trillion collisions, over 11 years, why is it that it - if this Higgs Boson particle is the only proof of a connecting field that is ubiquitous within material existence - has it been so elusive and rare? If such a field is as pervasive as it would have to be to be the only reason that matter maintains mass, then wouldn't this particle be as common as carbon molecules? After all, it seems completely dichotomous that such a fundamental aspect of physical reality would be so aggressively absent within physical reality.

The truth is that this Higgs Boson particle is not the same Higgs Boson particle that was originally sought, if the particle's specific properties are how one identifies it. ( en.wikipedia.org... )

To me, this discovery (if one has actually been made, of course) has the upside of ensuring ongoing government funding of the CERN facility regardless of the fact that the nations of the European Market have all literally dropped to their knees, and interestingly, the timing was impeccable - as one would expect from such a team of engineers and scientists. This is the ATS board. I'm surprised that no one here has realized the true implications of this sudden breakthrough. Good jobs at good wages for the foreseeable future.


edit on 7/8/2012 by NorEaster because: (no reason given)




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