The Flaw in all "True" Ghost Stories

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posted on Jul, 7 2012 @ 04:11 AM
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Not looking to argue. Just saying only what seems reasonable. If you have a different opinion feel free to explain.

It is believed that souls leave the dearly departed. Some of them get stranded here and are able to appear to the living. We hear of ghosts with white, or sickly-looking flesh, or others that resemble cigarette smoke.

If souls leave their flesh behind, then how can they appear human-like? I have no idea the logic behind the smoky ones, but if these spirits have THAT much power to appear in these forms, then why not go all the way? Why not appear in solid human form?

If spirits are without flesh, then aren't they pure energy? If so, then how come we never hear of spirits appearing like this:


Wouldn't this make more sense?




posted on Jul, 7 2012 @ 04:26 AM
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Personally don't believe in ghost.

But if the phenomenon exist in any form, you are assuming what ever it is has conscious thought, or an ability to control anything.

Putting a lot of assumed parameters on to it to discredit it.



posted on Jul, 7 2012 @ 04:40 AM
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My *current* opinion of ghosts is that they are emotional attachments of the consciousness that ... I want to say "was here" but that's not accurate. Everything is here all the time. Time is not linear. Existence - a lifetime - is not a once-around thing. You incarnate on this plane for the experience.

Consider this: Everything is energy. Matter is still energy and simplistically described it's densely packed energy. It is nonetheless energy, waves, vibrations. If you consider ego attachments, fears, worries, those things can sort of "stick". Again, this isn't really what's happening but trying to explain things that aren't 3D in 3D terms is an exercise in futility. But when it gets "stuck", it is an expression of that attachment that was stronger than freedom would allow. That can be equally a loving attachment as it can be a more negatively charged one.

Consider too that our energies persist for longer than we might imagine. When we understand that time is not linear and that heavy ego attachments are "sticky", you can see where ghosts can occur.

I know this is all very sketchy, but it's the best I can do having not really given it sufficient conscious thought to put it into words. I meditate quite a lot so this sort of information comes in periodically. It's enough for me that I understand it. Trying to explain it to others is a whole other kettle of fish.



posted on Jul, 7 2012 @ 04:54 AM
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Originally posted by benrl
Personally don't believe in ghost.

But if the phenomenon exist in any form, you are assuming what ever it is has conscious thought, or an ability to control anything.

Putting a lot of assumed parameters on to it to discredit it.


Nah, if souls were anything other than pure energy it would get stuck in the body.



posted on Jul, 7 2012 @ 05:18 AM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


Of the three "ghosts" that I actually saw, none of them looked like humans. That theme also continues if you add my friends/families paranormal stories into the mix.

They were either completely invisible, your standard black shadowy thing, and the third was a ball of yellow energy.

Black shadows would make sense if you assume ghosts absorb energy from their surroundings. Just like a black hole, if it's absorbing light instead of reflecting it, you would see nothing but black.

But I've never heard any single physical theory that can explain all ghost manifestations. Even the few I've had. If ghosts absorb energy then how is this yellow sphere putting out all this light? Obviously this "ghost" decided to go the other way on this one? lol.

But there have been many sightings people have had of humans (usually dead relatives) putting off massive light. Usually dressed in white. Brighter than bright. Looks like it goes both ways.



posted on Jul, 7 2012 @ 06:41 AM
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Originally posted by jiggerj
Not looking to argue. Just saying only what seems reasonable. If you have a different opinion feel free to explain.

It is believed that souls leave the dearly departed. Some of them get stranded here and are able to appear to the living. We hear of ghosts with white, or sickly-looking flesh, or others that resemble cigarette smoke.

If souls leave their flesh behind, then how can they appear human-like? I have no idea the logic behind the smoky ones, but if these spirits have THAT much power to appear in these forms, then why not go all the way?

Why not appear in solid human form?


You mean as in materializing a physical form out of thin air? I don't believe anyone can. There is only one way to enter this life and that is by being imagined by the body which it does only once. But I do believe in the possibility advanced beings can appear to a human being during waking hours resembling everything of the solid form, just like one might believe experiencing certain sensations like touch, smell, hearing in a dream after waking up.

I do believe the living can see ghosts by using the 3rd eye, the mental eye, the inner vision like seeing photographic memories. But instead of looking at the content of a brain cell from the memory department the brain uses other cells which look into an existence just as the physical eyes do. Just as there's no sun in my brain but only it's image etched onto some braincells which, when I close my eyes and remember the sun makes me believe I see the sun and it's light. It's only but a memory but I believe I'm looking with that 3rd eye which can also be used to look at something other than memories.

I believe the soul has a light at it's core. Maybe sometimes lost ghosts wander nearby and that is when we get the shivers as we are distracted by something in our presence (but not the solid presence). Or when there are confused ghosts in certain places they become drawn to our light and just before bumping into the living is when it might reflect on them to the 3rd eye seeing them as they were or they believe they should appear. Perhaps this happens all the time so much most neglect it and the brain doesn't process it to the self just as a lot of the more mundane objects are not processed because it chose to ignore.


If spirits are without flesh, then aren't they pure energy? If so, then how come we never hear of spirits appearing like this:

Wouldn't this make more sense?


People throughout history have made claims of supernaturally beautiful beings, angels, deva's, gods.

What I personally think is a flaw is that many psychics assume they can just dial any deceased almost instantly. Given the amount of time humanity has existed there must be countless ghosts by now, even if there was a telephone like system between souls how does one get their numbers other than the brain calculating them because of a photograph or perhaps they have seen the person in life.

If there was a celestial phone book it alone must consist of rediculously long codes. Yet in some shows people just look at a picture and have an almost instant connection, where dialing the code alone should take the brain hours, maybe days to do so. It would make more sense to me if it takes at least an hour to even establish a connection let alone the time it might take for a signal to reach another soul and be transmitted back, if the soul even decides to answer. The psychics who are in it for the money usually can't wait that long and would argue about infinity and 'the system being perfect' hence there are no waiting times ever

This doesn't account for photographs but I don't believe it is possible at all to photograph a ghost. Only maybe in the future when there are devices which allow for viewing the individual memorycells might we find a kind of physical evidence in the form of imagery (and audio) out of which a more convincing theory might emerge.
edit on 7/7/2012 by Dragonfly79 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 7 2012 @ 10:27 AM
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Originally posted by tinfoilman


But there have been many sightings people have had of humans (usually dead relatives) putting off massive light. Usually dressed in white.


This brings to light another question: Is there a clothing store on the other side? I'm pretty sure if there be souls, they'd be naked when they leave their hosts.



posted on Jul, 7 2012 @ 10:34 AM
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Originally posted by tinfoilman
If ghosts absorb energy then how is this yellow sphere putting out all this light? Obviously this "ghost" decided to go the other way on this one? lol.



If all the ghost claimers described the apparitions in this way, I would accept it more readily than any other.



posted on Jul, 7 2012 @ 10:57 AM
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Interesting angle. I like where you're coming from - but let me tell you why I think you're wrong.

If the soul is energy of some type, then it is a kind of energy that science has not yet documented. So while artists might portray spirit energy as being similar to electricity - the truth is we don't really know what sort of energy it actually is.

Consider it this way. Every living human being has a soul. Do you see that sort of energy display superimposed on every living being you meet? Of course not, because the human eyes are not capable of perceiving spirit energy (generally speaking anyway, people capable of reading auras may be doing this - whole other subject...)

Personally, I think the human body has an ability to perceive that extends beyond the scientifically known senses. When people see a ghost, they are actually sensing something with that 'sense organ'. They may interpret it as a physical being, but that doesn't necessarily mean that there is something tangible there reflecting photons back into their eyes.

But ultimately I think your most flawed assumption is that 'spirit energy' would look like electricity. There are many forms of energy, most of them are invisible to the human eye. Just because electricity is one form of energy that is easy to visualise, doesn't mean that an unphotographed form of energy would also appear in a similar way to the human eye. The odds are that it wouldn't appear at all to the human eye, just as the majority of energy forms cannot be perceived visually.



posted on Jul, 7 2012 @ 11:46 AM
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Originally posted by TheStev

If the soul is energy of some type, then it is a kind of energy that science has not yet documented. So while artists might portray spirit energy as being similar to electricity - the truth is we don't really know what sort of energy it actually is.
But ultimately I think your most flawed assumption is that 'spirit energy' would look like electricity.


I didn't say electricity, but rather, energy. You are right, though, that we have no idea what kind of energy the spirit world is made of.

Whatever that energy is, there are still many questions that aren't being asked (none that I've heard of anyway). One question is:

We know that even in this dimension there are particles without mass that fall right through the planet. Yet, we hear of these spirits walking the earth, roaming halls, walking up stairways... Why are these apparitions (assuming they are without mass) still bound by the laws of gravity in our dimension?




posted on Jul, 7 2012 @ 11:54 AM
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This is a easy one. Think about it this way, You've been living as yourself for the past 60 - 70 years, as yourself, you know nothing else. Then something tramatic happens and you find yourself not alive anymore, well if you weren't prepared, I can only assume this could be a very open ended place in terms of how you'd feel, and yes I am sure you " feel " after dying.

But that's besides the point here, the point is that you only know yourself as you, you have only seen yourself this life as you, so if you had any control over anything, you'd most likely would appear as yourself, seeing as you couldn't / wouldn't want to appear as anyone else.

Kinda how a reflection in the water is. The soul is a reflection of yourself, and if you only have known yourself from this life you just had, well why wouldn't you appear as the physical form of what you used to be ?



posted on Jul, 7 2012 @ 12:02 PM
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Originally posted by Moneyisgodlifeisrented
This is a easy one. Think about it this way, You've been living as yourself for the past 60 - 70 years, as yourself, you know nothing else. Then something tramatic happens and you find yourself not alive anymore, well if you weren't prepared, I can only assume this could be a very open ended place in terms of how you'd feel, and yes I am sure you " feel " after dying.

But that's besides the point here, the point is that you only know yourself as you, you have only seen yourself this life as you, so if you had any control over anything, you'd most likely would appear as yourself, seeing as you couldn't / wouldn't want to appear as anyone else.

Kinda how a reflection in the water is. The soul is a reflection of yourself, and if you only have known yourself from this life you just had, well why wouldn't you appear as the physical form of what you used to be ?


Is this on a subconscious level? Because if spirits had the power to recreate their own image, then they would have the power to create a new and better image if they didn't like their looks while on earth.

Me, oh I'm gonna make myself look like Pierce Brosnan in the afterworld, and every now and then I'll transform into Jessica Simpson just to satisfy my feminine side. YAY!



posted on Jul, 7 2012 @ 04:45 PM
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Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by tinfoilman


But there have been many sightings people have had of humans (usually dead relatives) putting off massive light. Usually dressed in white.


This brings to light another question: Is there a clothing store on the other side? I'm pretty sure if there be souls, they'd be naked when they leave their hosts.


Yes there's a clothing store. You just go down main and it's right on your left there lol.

No but seriously, in my opinion virtually all "ghosts" are residual hauntings. It's not a spirit, just a recording of the events on time/space or something. Given the right conditions like a thunderstorm or air pressure or whatever, the recording simply gets played back is all. Or somehow something gets warped allowing you to see into the future/past or something.

There have been documented cases where this occurs even when the "ghost" is still alive, just not at the current location. In fact sometimes you even see yourself. There are so many reported cases of that there's an entire class of hauntings for it. It's called a Doppelganger

So you don't even need to be dead to create a ghost.

Or like you see the ghost come in the door and set its lunch pale down on the table like it did every single day for 30 years. It just wore the environment thin and left an impression on it. Clothes would just be part of the recording. What it's getting recorded onto or how it's being played back I have no idea.



edit on 7-7-2012 by tinfoilman because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 7 2012 @ 05:17 PM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


Also when someone says they saw someone dressed in white, it's another way of implying they're from Heaven or from some paradise type realm.

Most other ghost sightings if you really pay attention to what people see, and the behavior of the "ghost", it has not left me with the impression that ghosts MUST be human. Only Hollywood has done that. Instead the stories of real sightings have led me to almost the exact opposite opinion. That many of these things aren't human.

Many times, they don't look human, and don't act human, and don't have any clothes. They push people, bang things around the house, growl, but rarely do they sit down and explain how the afterlife works, what you expect a dead human to do.

If I was a spirit and could contact the living the first thing I would want to tell them is there is an afterlife and what it's like. What I would not do is hang around a library for 300 years, knock books over, and try to get everyone to leave.

The most common sighting is fact just a black shadow, orb, or white mist, with no clothes at all. Clothes on a ghost are in fact a rarity. Also, many times people are scratched by ghosts (including myself), only to find out the ghost does not in fact have five fingers, but instead has three or four claws?

The point is only in fiction is it a given that 100% of ghosts are dead people and that they wear clothes. That mostly comes from TV, Hollywood, books, and the spiritualists that would love to put you in touch with your dead uncle. However, it's best to realize that in reality there are more than one type of haunting, and more than one type of haunter.

For example the ghost doesn't even need to be dead. People have seen ghosts only to find out the "ghost" is actually still alive or even themselves staring back at them.



posted on Jul, 7 2012 @ 06:29 PM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


Personally, I think it has more to do with out own perception, then with the ghost itself. We hold on to the deceased in whatever form is most pleasing, and calming to us. So, when the ghosts of our deceased come to visit, we don't see them as decaying hags, but as we remember them best, and most lovingly. I compare it to our perception of beauty. What one individual finds beautiful, and inviting, another may not. Ghosts of loved ones work the same way. That's my theory, at least.

~ Wandering Scribe



posted on Jul, 7 2012 @ 08:19 PM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


You didn't say electricity specifically, but you posted a picture of the most common artistic interpretation of spirit energy - which is usually a combination of electrical and light energy: the two types of energy (that I can think of) which are visible to the human eye.

I totally appreciate your frustration with these questions not being asked. The truth is, they are being asked - it's just that it's only being asked in paranormal circles. Science has not proven the existence of spirit energy, therefore it will not speculate on any questions regarding this form of energy. Science cannot allow for things that cannot be substantiated. Perhaps one day we'll find a tool that allows us to reliably see into this dimension, but until then (or until a massive overhaul of the field of science) the questions you want to ask won't be asked in science.

Regarding your question of 'particles falling through the earth' you are making a few assumptions in your question: mainly that the spirit world and the quantum world are one and the same. I think you're on the right path, the two are (in my opinion) intrinsically linked - but that doesn't mean they are synonymous. And even if they weren't, many particles exist in the quantum realm that do not ignore mass and gravity. Some do, but not all (from what I understand, I'm no quantum physicist). So why would you assume that the 'particles' that make up ghosts would also ignore these rules?

Personally I don't believe that what we think of as ghost are made up of particles at all. As you stated in your first post they are believed to be 'pure energy'. This doesn't mean that the energy is somehow cleaner than other forms of energy - simply that they are energy without matter. I believe that all matter is energy, but I'm not certain all energy is also matter.

ETA:


Because if spirits had the power to recreate their own image, then they would have the power to create a new and better image if they didn't like their looks while on earth.


Another massive thing to assume. Because one is true, the other must be true? That's a huge leap to take. And I don't necessarily believe it to be true.

Absolutely it is subconscious, I think perhaps the closest science has come to describing the soul is the 'subconscious mind'. Everyone alive has a subconscious idea of what their body should look like. I think you're also making an assumption that all ghosts are completely conscious, sentient and aware of their situation along with all knowledge they had during their life (along with probably some more, by the sound of what you're saying).

Big assumptions to make, given the behaviour we observe in hauntings/ghosts. Absolutely there are some intelligent type hauntings, but the majority, as tinfoil appear to be residual type hauntings. In these cases, it appears as though only the subconscious remains - and there often appears to be no indication of intelligent, conscious thought in these hauntings.

You're exploring some interesting ideas, just be careful about making logical leaps and basing question on assumptions. The only assumption that should never be challenged is the assumption that all things should be challenged.
edit on 7-7-2012 by TheStev because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 7 2012 @ 08:26 PM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


My stepdaughter for one had seen a solidified ghost, in other words the form the ghost took was solid as a physical object.



posted on Jul, 7 2012 @ 08:31 PM
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reply to post by ldyserenity
 


Could you explain further? All objects that are 'seen' appear to be physical. Either your stepdaughter touched the entity (therefore her sense of it being 'solid' was beyond sight) or the entity moved something giving the impression of solidity.

Otherwise there is nothing to say for certain that it was anything other than a non-transparent apparition. Just because you can't see straight through to the other side of an apparition doesn't mean that it has a tangible, physical form.



posted on Jul, 8 2012 @ 10:30 AM
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Originally posted by jiggerj

If spirits are without flesh, then aren't they pure energy? If so, then how come we never hear of spirits appearing like this:



The first thing you have to deal with is the error that human "spirits" - or any sort of non-corporeal manifestation - consists of pure energy. That's just not true, regardless of what the popular kids are claiming these days. It seems as if energy is the catch-all explanation for whatever it is that can't be determined, and I blame the fact that Newtons 1st Law of Thermodynamics has been hijacked and misunderstood by modern civilization to the point where energy is threatening to replace the myth of God as the Alpha and Omega of reality itself.

Energy is a net ramification, and that's what energy is. You burn a chunk of wood, and energy is released (fire). You split an atom, and energy is released (nuclear fission). An electron drops from an out orbit to a closer orbit and that change itself releases a photon (energy) and let there be light. Energy isn't and has never been the initiator when one runs the ramification chain back to the very beginning.

What affects all that happens in the material realm is information. Residual information is passive and reacts by establishing default avenues of progressive development potential (called natural laws), and physicists have known of and worked with this kind of information for decades. There is another form of information that came into existence when the corporeal brain developed in response to the overwhelming levels of material sophistication that developed among auto-animate corporeal wholes (living things). This form of information is not passive, and is the result of the brain itself serving the survival needs of the corporeal whole that it exists within, by translating the DNA dictates into specific action items. The active translation, and implementation, of these dictates is what this form of information is all about - and yet, like Residual information, this dynamic form has no half-life either. Just as a fact cluster (representing something that did - in fact - occur) can never cease to be a fact cluster (that occurrence will always have - in fact - occurred at one time) representing that occurrence, each "burst" of dynamic information will always persist once it has been configured and created by the brain.

The Homo Sapiens brain has a capacity called sentience, and while it is certainly a leg-up in the corporeal survival game, its burst output also persist - with the added complication of being fully sentient. We call this collective burst output from the Homo Sapiens brain the human being, and while there are likely other brains that create human beings, so far as we know, the Homo Sapiens brain is the only one on this planet that does so.

So, with dynamic information (self aware, no less) as the physical basis of the eternal human being, if one of these beings wants to communicate with the material realm (it's the old neighborhood, after all), then how does it accomplish such a feat? There are actually several methods.

One way is to affect molecules within the corporeal realm (this is actually event trajectory manipulation, but we'll just lighten the technical jazz and describe it as gathering the right kinds of elements, so as to not digress too intensely within this overview) and "shape" them to create dense black masses, wispy pale forms, or even vague shadows that dart from one side of a room to the other.

Moving entire molecule arrangements has been pretty popular, with light switches, and radio on/off buttons, and even furniture being used to signal their presence. The same with collecting ambient sounds and reconfiguring them to resemble voices. EVPs are probably the most reliable means of making one's presence known.

Then, there are the full body apparitions, and while the true apparition is extremely rare, the perceived apparition is much more commonplace. The perceiving person - of course - can't discern the difference between the two, but
the true apparition can be picked up on camera or video - whereas the perceive apparition can't be. And this is how this phenomenon works.

The perceived apparition (fully clothed and often in full color) is actually a manipulation of the perceiving person's perception by affecting the information sent to the optic center of the brain. The image is supplied by that person's "memory cloud" (Residual information), and used by the dynamic information entity to represent who that entity was when it was still "alive". This is why the clothes are featured, of course.

The true apparition is a monumental undertaking, and it's extremely rare for such an accomplishment to be achieved. I don;t even feel like going into what it takes to bring that sort of thing together, but it takes deep experience to pull it off. Reality follows the rules.
edit on 7/8/2012 by NorEaster because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 8 2012 @ 12:20 PM
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Originally posted by jiggerj
Not looking to argue. Just saying only what seems reasonable. If you have a different opinion feel free to explain.

It is believed that souls leave the dearly departed. Some of them get stranded here and are able to appear to the living. We hear of ghosts with white, or sickly-looking flesh, or others that resemble cigarette smoke.

If souls leave their flesh behind, then how can they appear human-like?


Not that odd, really, and not any more "impossible" than the fact that if you use a heat camera(If I recall it correctly) and photograph a corner of a sofa where a person have recently been sitting, or a leaf where a piece of it have recently been cut of, then the camera will yet capture the image of the person that was previously sitting in the sofa aswell as the piece of the leaf that is no longer there.

If one thinks of "Ghosts" as a mix between a type of Electro-discharge and/or a type of "imprint" in the enviroment, then there is no reason for why this imprint could not keep the shape it had as a living person.



I have no idea the logic behind the smoky ones, but if these spirits have THAT much power to appear in these forms, then why not go all the way? Why not appear in solid human form?


There are loads of accounts where the ghost/s have been described as looking extremely Human.


If spirits are without flesh, then aren't they pure energy? If so, then how come we never hear of spirits appearing like this:


Wouldn't this make more sense?


Actualy, such descriptions of deceased ones are very common in Near Death-accounts.
In fact, that apparence are probably the most described in that regard.
edit on 8-7-2012 by Nightchild because: (no reason given)





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