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Gender indicators why ?

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posted on Jul, 7 2012 @ 10:54 AM
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The Relationships Forum is already convoluted enough IMO


~Tenth




posted on Jul, 7 2012 @ 10:55 AM
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reply to post by tothetenthpower
 


extnay on the elationshipsray
edit on 7-7-2012 by Ahabstar because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 7 2012 @ 11:23 AM
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I do not think that in an intellectually advanced community, that gender ought to change the way one poster refers to another. The fact is that on ATS, some of the most important topics on the face of the globe are discussed. Now, one can argue (not without some degree of legitimacy) that the value of our debates and discussions here is somewhat less than you might get in a university debating society, or indeed in the parliaments and senates of national governments. But the point should be, that in a community of this nature, the topic, and ones veiws on it, are the only things up for discussion.

I do however realise, that there are some people on the internet, and here on ATS who might not be able to keep their gender biases out of the discussion at hand, and that sucks in a most comprehensive manner.

Personally speaking, I am a gentleman, but I call EVERYONE "dude". Hell, the word dude can be interchanged with just about descriptor (like, bloke, fella, chap,chick,lady,madame), and since I remember being told that it actually means something like "boil on a camels testicle", I figure there is no gender bias there. Its pretty much as insulting to one person as another, no matter what they have in their underwear, or how fancy that underwear might or might not be.



posted on Jul, 7 2012 @ 11:30 AM
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Originally posted by Ahabstar
reply to post by tothetenthpower
 


extnay on the elationshipsray
edit on 7-7-2012 by Ahabstar because: (no reason given)


*warning off topic post*

Now that's one cool avatar



posted on Jul, 7 2012 @ 02:21 PM
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I first thought the thread was protesting an existing gender category in the member profiles, but after perusing the boxes again after a long time I saw there isn't one.

OK, so the OP is questioning whether ATS should have gender markers on the profiles.
Why not, if it is voluntary?
Although there are many places to state your gender.

What people and forms now call "gender" is actually "sex", which was the standard on official forms a few years back, as in:

Sex?
Please indicate:
- male
- female

This often got silly responses like:

Sex? YES PLEASE!
Please indicate:
- male X
- female

Sex refers to biological difference, while gender refers to the changing social and cultural norms around biological sex.

According to The Oxford Companion To Philosophy (Edited by Ted Honderich, Oxford University Press. New York: 1995):


Gender: Term introduced by feminists in order that the social aspect of sexual difference should not be ignored. When the difference between male and female human beings is treated as one of 'sex', it may be thought to accounted for biologically. Speaking of gender, one acknowledges the socio-cultural determination of the concepts women and men, and admits a conception of women and men as distinguished primarily by a difference of social position. J. Horn
(P. 305).

So although "gender" and "sex" are used on admin forms interchangeably, with an increasing use of "gender" to signify male or female, such misuse of "gender" to signify biological division is wholly inappropriate.

So questions on gender could be open-ended, whereas sex in most cases is clear-cut.

Perhaps they could ask both to be really politically correct, with two options for the "sexes", and a line or two for "gender", for example:

Sex: Male
Gender: A butch post-gay, with endearing feminine attributes.
edit on 7-7-2012 by halfoldman because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 7 2012 @ 03:06 PM
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I sort of tend to agree with halfoldman, for while I can understand the 'frustration' of not knowing someone's Sex if one is curious about it, I still think that an actual Gender indicator would only limit and, not the least, complicate things, unless, possibly, it is done as on some other sites where the members can choose from a whole range of various "identities" on how they want to identify, for those feeling that they cannot identify with their biological Sex, or, have an ambigous biological Sex.

There could ofcourse be an indicator for strictly the biological Sex with the indicator saying "Biological Sex" and not "Gender", but even in that case, there would need to be atleast three options, as one of 1000 people have some type of intersex condition, and these people do not always want to choose only one "box", so to to speak. Especially nowadays, when less and less newborns with Intersex conditions are operated upon as a growing number of surgeons nowadays sees it best to let the child mature into an age when s/he can take own decisions on which road to take, and many intersexed individuals do also nowadays choose to live happily as they were born, instead of 'correcting' it.
The reason for this now common standpoint amongst surgeons, is formed from the fact that many Intersex children that previously was operated upon routinely as infants, turned out to grow up miserable when they not seldomly developed a identity that did not match the surgically created Sex.

Anyway, there are in my opinion no actual need for gender indicators more than for curiousity, as people here are not foremostly posting as genders but as members, individuals and debaters.



posted on Jul, 7 2012 @ 04:02 PM
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Although it's an understandable fact, I sometimes feel so frustrated that we cannot star on this forum.
The above poster and some others would certainly get a star from me, and I think the topic actually has the potential for a very profound debate beyond "board business".

The way people use the terminology in general compared to what it was supposed to mean is quite interesting and significant.



posted on Jul, 7 2012 @ 04:13 PM
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Problem is you are all forgetting where the term Gender came from, it's not some social construct put forth by feminists, it's original meaning is




(in languages such as Latin, Greek, Russian, and German) Each of the classes (typically masculine, feminine, common, neuter) of nouns...


So in a way it does hold that if someone is the feminine (female) or the masculine (male) that they would be of a particular gender.. It's been bastardized by PC Crowd to mean something other than it was originally put forth as..



posted on Jul, 7 2012 @ 04:34 PM
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Originally posted by FortAnthem
reply to post by Destinyone
 


Oh wait, you're a female!

I guess that means I'll have to type slower when responding to you in the future.


No...not at all... But, you will need to wonder if that batch of frosted brownies I made for you has exlax in them.....


Des





edit on 7-7-2012 by Destinyone because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 7 2012 @ 04:56 PM
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reply to post by vkey08
 

This is true to an extent, since before sexologist John Money made the sex/gender divide in language, even in English "gender" was a grammatical term.


Gender is a range of characteristics of femininity, masculinity[1] and others described as third gender. Depending on the context, the describing characteristics vary from sex to social roles (gender roles) to gender identity. Sexologist John Money introduced the terminological distinction between biological sex and gender as a role in 1955. Before his work, it was uncommon to use the word "gender" to refer to anything but grammatical categories.[2] However, Money's meaning of the word did not become widespread until the 1970s, when feminist theory embraced the distinction between biological sex and the social construct of gender. Today, the distinction is strictly followed in some contexts, like medicine,[4][1] social sciences,[5][6] feminist literature,[7] documents written by organizations such as the World Health Organization (WHO),[8] and in some dictionaries,[9] but in many contexts, even in some areas of social sciences, the meaning of gender has expanded to include "sex" or even to replace the latter word.[2][3] Although this gradual change in the meaning of gender can be traced to the 1980s, a small acceleration of the process in the scientific literature was observed when the Food and Drug Administration started to use "gender" instead of "sex" in 1993.[10] "Gender" is now commonly used even to refer to the physiology of non-human animals, without any implication of social gender roles.[3][

en.wikipedia.org...

Words do change in meaning, but I'd say "sex" divides biology between male and female.
After all, some discourses should fit prevalent reality, rather than cultural or linguistic studies.

Although I'm no expert on grammar, in German there are at least 3 gendered articles: der, die, das (male, female, neuter).
Interestingly in many languages the English word "Gender" is being imported, to divide it from mother-tongue words for "sex", for example, in Afrikaans "Geslag" (German "Geschlecht").

So if you study "Gesclechts-krankheit" (sexually transmitted diseases in German) you'd be in the medical or science faculty.
But if you study "Gender", and how the social and cultural position of women makes them more at risk of contracting HIV/AIDS, you'd probably be in the humanities or social sciences.

What is of interest is how the terms are used currently in English, and how "gender" has replaced and cannibalized "sex".
Perhaps that signals a shift in society from the celebration of the "exact sciences" to the "social sciences".
Perhaps older members who lived through a time when "sex" was the only division would understand how profound this shift to "gender" has actually been.
Yet few ever question this.

Perhaps the joke is that anyone who knows what "gender" really means in the social context is likely to support the gender-deconstruction of society, while those who think it just refers to "sex" often don't have a clue.

It's probably the greatest shift in meaning since the word "gay". And yet, while that term is constantly interrogated, the shift from "sex" to "gender" has been accepted as some kind of insignificant progression.
edit on 7-7-2012 by halfoldman because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 7 2012 @ 05:04 PM
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You people are serious.

I mean, it seemed like a good idea at the time.
edit on 7-7-2012 by randyvs because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 7 2012 @ 06:35 PM
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Originally posted by randyvs

You people are serious.


Not me.


It just wouldn't fly though. This isn't FB.



posted on Jul, 7 2012 @ 06:43 PM
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My username sort of gives me away, but I know that a good portion of men will speak differently do a woman than another man. It has been my experience here that they are more polite, but I have seen it kick in a condescending tone as well.

I make no secret.. I'm a mom of four boys, hence my username. For years that is all I ever hear "MaaaaaaMaaaaaaaa" and then as they have gotten older and now all I hear is "mooom mom mom, ma ma ma mum mum mum mum, mama mama.." Stupid south park! I often wonder if I actually have a name anymore! LOL



posted on Jul, 7 2012 @ 06:46 PM
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Originally posted by MaMaa
My username sort of gives me away, but I know that a good portion of men will speak differently do a woman than another man. It has been my experience here that they are more polite, but I have seen it kick in a condescending tone as well.

I make no secret.. I'm a mom of four boys, hence my username. For years that is all I ever hear "MaaaaaaMaaaaaaaa" and then as they have gotten older and now all I hear is "mooom mom mom, ma ma ma mum mum mum mum, mama mama.." Stupid south park!


I know what you mean but you have to understand that this is an international site and you are going to get SOME retrogrades and people from other cultures. Sad but true.


I often wonder if I actually have a name anymore! LOL


How about Fred?



posted on Jul, 7 2012 @ 06:57 PM
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Hmm... I' just can't wrap my mind around the need to know someone's gender. I just don't get it. I've never wondered, nor cared.

The only time it ever seems to make a difference is when members make inappropriately personal remarks about one another.



posted on Jul, 9 2012 @ 08:27 AM
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Personally, your gender is irrelevant - I am here for your mind!!

If not already evident, I am a mere male



edit on 9-7-2012 by Sublimecraft because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 01:29 AM
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reply to post by Tearman
 





The only time it ever seems to make a difference is when members make inappropriately personal remarks about one another.


So you believe all personal remarks between members are inappropriate ?
Any way that's it, you got it right there. Just say'in I've noticed some awkward moments amoungst interacting members because a persons avatar was misleading.

I wasn't trying to be remembered in the ATS Hall of Fame, as the Father of some new controversial device for ATS. I wasn't trying to be a MOD, I hear that one a lot.

Intrepid
Oh and thanks Trep for indicating what forum I wasn't on. Need that all the time.



posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 04:36 PM
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Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by Tearman
 





The only time it ever seems to make a difference is when members make inappropriately personal remarks about one another.


So you believe all personal remarks between members are inappropriate ?
Yeah, I guess so. I think they should be made in private. But maybe I'm anti-social.



posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 07:30 PM
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reply to post by Tearman
 





Yeah, I guess so. I think they should be made in private. But maybe I'm anti-social.


No you can't say that, because you being a regular on these boards clearly opposes the idea. At the same time I'm glad you're not running the place.



posted on Jul, 11 2012 @ 06:34 AM
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Originally posted by MaMaa
For years that is all I ever hear "MaaaaaaMaaaaaaaa" and then as they have gotten older and now all I hear is "mooom mom mom, ma ma ma mum mum mum mum, mama mama.."

"WHAT!?!?!?"
"hi." I saw it playing back in my head, loved that scene.

To the point though; my body is male, as is my mind, but what I am really ? Who knows..
It could be useful to know this when sending a reply, like someone posted before, i don't like calling a female "dude". Which is just an example, there can be many many things you say differently just because of gender.

edit to add: A friend of mine (male) feels like he's female. He's just come out with this, and yeah, it makes sense if you think about his past, how he's always acted more like a woman. Is he male or female ?
edit on 11-7-2012 by TommyD because: Adding something




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