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Revelation - Chapter 13

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posted on Jul, 9 2012 @ 11:12 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


How is it that the Bible is the one, true word of God, and yet there are so many factions believing so many different things? Does that mean that 95% of the Churches in existence will go to hell for preaching a false gospel? And according to them, they spread those sermons because they believe it is right. Is believing you're right the only important thing? What about the fact that you choose a certain denomination? Is your choice what makes it correct?

It's funny how you preach about being holy and saved and knowing the word of "God", and yet there isn't one Church. There are HUNDREDS. And there are small differences between every one of them. To me, that means that the majority of the church-going population is going to hell because they accidentally or intentionally chose the wrong church. Is there some sort of sick joke hidden in this? Your faith is more flawed than a chair built with two legs and a seat full of splinters.




posted on Jul, 9 2012 @ 11:28 AM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 


Spirit of denominationalism. Satan has the same tactic for thousands of years, divide and conquer. The church, or "ekklesia" isnt a building or denomination. It's the invisible body of Christ. Most denominations fight and argue over secondary and tertiary doctrines like type of baptism, musical instruments in worship or not, silly stuff like that. Generally primary doctrines are the same from denomination to denomination. The principles should never changes, the methods should be cutting edge.



posted on Jul, 9 2012 @ 11:41 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Which means the majority of church-goers are still going to hell, according to you.



posted on Jul, 9 2012 @ 12:03 PM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Which means the majority of church-goers are still going to hell, according to you.


I don't know about "majority" but there are many who simply practice Churchianity. Or who want just a little Jesus on their life like He is some sort of condiment.



posted on Jul, 9 2012 @ 01:36 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Christ is the fulfillment of the law and the prophets.

Then why do you keep bringing up your opinion that the prophecies were not fulfilled by Jesus?
Obviously you don't believe Jesus fulfilled the Law and the Prophets and only give it lip service to hide the fact that you think there needs to be another, "real" Messiah, this time a more "Jewish" one that will give what the people who killed Jesus wanted, a material kingdom of this world.
edit on 9-7-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 9 2012 @ 03:33 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Christ is the fulfillment of the law and the prophets.

Then why do you keep bringing up your opinion that the prophecies were not fulfilled by Jesus?
Obviously you don't believe Jesus fulfilled the Law and the Prophets and only give it lip service to hide the fact that you think there needs to be another, "real" Messiah, this time a more "Jewish" one that will give what the people who killed Jesus wanted, a material kingdom of this world.
edit on 9-7-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)


I've never said the prophecies were not fulfilled by Jesus. He's not just a Lamb, He is also a Lion. If you don't have two advents then you have a Messiah candidate that failed to fulfill 6/7th of the prophecies. The Jews missed Him coming as the Passover Lamb because they were so focused on the ruling Lion.



posted on Jul, 9 2012 @ 04:37 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

I've never said the prophecies were not fulfilled by Jesus.
You are saying it again, right now.

. . . you have a Messiah candidate that failed to fulfill 6/7th of the prophecies.



posted on Jul, 9 2012 @ 04:44 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


But isn't that what we all want? A kingdom that appeals to the carnal body, and not the scholars of spirit?
edit on 9-7-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 9 2012 @ 05:19 PM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 

But isn't that what we all want? A kingdom that appeals to the carnal body, and not the scholars of spirit?
If everyone thought the same then there would be no reason for religion. Some people think a certain way and they want others to take on their way of thinking to bring about a just society.
What is eventually to go by the wayside is wars of conquest to accumulate material goods at other's expense.
Those who are for defeating everyone else and calling them the enemy, I do not believe are on God's side and are the devils of humanity that need to have their power taken away from them for the sake of everyone.
There is a fake religion, of course who follow a fake God who preach war, but that religion will have its day and then go down to the grave to never arise again.
edit on 9-7-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 9 2012 @ 05:24 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


My dear Dewey, the whole reason for religion IS our carnal bodies. If we weren't afraid of mortality, there would be no need for religion at all. Why? Because we wouldn't care what happens after we die. And the entire foundation of the Christian faith revolves around what comes after death.

You want more proof? Imagine that every human being currently in existence is immortal. And now imagine that every human being who is born today and all the days following after is immortal as well. Everyone is immortal, forever and ever. Tell me, what need do we have for a god? The only problem we would have is deciding how to deal with the population issue, and I'm fairly certain that the Bible draws a blank on that one.

So what need have we for a god as immortals? What need have we for religion at all? Anything we desire, comes with time...which we would have more than enough of. So, yes, mortality is the prime reason for religion. And our carnal bodies kind of make our mortality pertinent to the situation. We have the urge to satisfy every desire, for fear that any form of restriction will lead to death. And we despise death...unless death preserves our own lives.

Nope, mortality is the number one cause of religion. Mortality...and our need to control it.
edit on 9-7-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 9 2012 @ 07:04 PM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 


You're describing a natural way of thinking and I could relate that to what I was calling fake religion, and one that will not endure forever.
It takes real religion to see past one's immediate desires to a time after this life and to envision the things that are more important than our current struggles for survival.
Jesus talked about laying up treasures in heaven and he did not mean magic bank accounts where you can deposit gold in it and take it out in another life, he meant spiritual things.
One can have an internal mythos about what happens after you die, but what I was talking about earlier was religion in the context of a social system where the gatherings of individuals constitute a spiritual temple where God meets man and people are nourished with the food that sustains them in that other world.
edit on 9-7-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 9 2012 @ 10:08 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

I've never said the prophecies were not fulfilled by Jesus.
You are saying it again, right now.

. . . you have a Messiah candidate that failed to fulfill 6/7th of the prophecies.





No I am not. He fulfilled the first advent prophecies, not the second advent ones. He could not have fulfilled the second advent prophecies at His first advent. First isn't second. There are slightly over 1,800 prophecies yet to be fulfilled. And the Messiah had to come before the 2nd temple was destroyed. Please tell when the events of Matthew 24, Isaiah 63, Joel 3, or Psalms 83 happened in antiquity.



posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 04:23 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Please tell when the events of Matthew 24, Isaiah 63, Joel 3, or Psalms 83 happened in antiquity.

Why don't you start out by giving a breakdown of what you think it would take to have these passages fulfilled?
Joel 3 says the exiles will be returned, I believe that happened in the sixth century BC.
Matthew brings up the abomination of desolation, which would correspond to the destruction of the Jerusalem temple in 70AD.
Psalms 83 looks like a rehash of the conquest of Canaan in the time of Joshua.
Isaiah 63 looks like another telling of what the Lord has done in the past, apparently with an eye to coercing the Lord to do more things like that.



posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 07:17 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Without writing a book let me say that was some ridiculous twisting to claim all the events of Matthew 24 have been fulfilled. And there was no abom. of deso. in 70 AD as there was no man of sin sitting in the temple in the holy of holies declaring himself to be God in the flesh.



posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 08:52 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 
The "man of sin sitting in the temple" comes from 2 Thessalonians.
Abomination of Desolation in Matthew has its parallel in Luke which says the armies surrounding Jerusalem, which most Christians see as the Roman army that destroyed the temple when it captured the city in 70 AD.
You may have another interpretation that is a modern invention to set up some sort of Rapture scenario but it is not in line with the traditional view of that prophecy.



posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 09:57 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Has nothing to do with the rapture. Christ mentioned the abom. of deso. to a Hebrew audience who knew full well what He meant. The first one Antiochus Epiphanes sacrificed a sow on the brazen altar and erected a statue to Zeus in the holy of holies. What about the other events of Matthew 24? When did they have their fulfillment.. no allegories here allowed. Paul illuminates the coming abom. of deso. yes, but the events of Matthew 24 never happened in antiquity. Neither were Edom and Basrah (the areas controlled by Hamas today) destroyed by the Lord as described in Isaiah 63. The Islamic nations of Joel chapter 3 are still functioning nations today, they have not been judged as the text declares. The Psalms 83 nations that war to wipe Israel off the map never happened yet.

edit on 10-7-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 10:18 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


I am describing a natural way of thinking, yes. But would religion have been nearly so successful had it not played upon our most secret desires and instincts? We want a good deal, not blatant enslavement for the betterment of a higher power at our own expense. We want to believe we're coming out on top...and what better way than to reassure us that our most basic fear is unnecessary provided we follow these simple rules?

It's a win-win...the best kind of religion. All you have to do...is believe.



It takes real religion to see past one's immediate desires to a time after this life and to envision the things that are more important than our current struggles for survival.


Oh, and who does that nowadays? Not as many as you might think...


Jesus talked about laying up treasures in heaven and he did not mean magic bank accounts where you can deposit gold in it and take it out in another life, he meant spiritual things.
One can have an internal mythos about what happens after you die, but what I was talking about earlier was religion in the context of a social system where the gatherings of individuals constitute a spiritual temple where God meets man and people are nourished with the food that sustains them in that other world.


I don't entirely agree with that...it's a little too literal for my taste. In general, however, I concur. The problem is, people aren't seeing enough immediate reward for their faith, and meanwhile, they are stuck in carnal bodies. Therefore, carnal desires and pursuits benefit them more in this life, especially when the hand that feeds them (ahem, government) demands that they fulfill carnal tasks in order to appease the people who care less for spirit than they do for material fulfillment.

That's the problem we have. We live in a material world where we can spend all the time we want contemplating matters of spirit...but carnal desires and temptations will forever vie for our attentions. And when we're trapped in a carnal form...well, you can see how that would work out.
edit on 10-7-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 10:23 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Has nothing to do with the rapture.
So now you don't believe in a Rapture any more?
You have some sort of eschatological scheme cooked up, so did you invent your own and dropped your Chuck Missler-ism?

Christ mentioned the abom. of deso. to a Hebrew audience who knew full well what He meant.
You probably meant Jews. Daniel is partially written in Hebrew and also Aramaic and Greek. I doubt the listeners of Jesus did know what he meant when he said that and the generally held story is that later the Christians did understand it, enough to not join in the fight against the Romans, and to clear out of the Area into Jordan.

The first one Antiochus Epiphanes sacrificed a sow on the brazen altar and erected a statue to Zeus in the holy of holies.
This is apparently part of your Dispensationalist mythology and may be based on a theory but is not something provable from the Bible or otherwise that it was the fulfillment of the Daniel prophecy.

What about the other events of Matthew 24?
You tell me, you're the one with all the unfulfilled prophecies.

When did they have their fulfillment.. no allegories here allowed.
I guess this means strike out all the parables from the Gospels too, then, eh?

Paul illuminates the coming abom. of deso.
You are talking about 2 Thessalonians that most scriptural text scholars doubt Paul wrote.

yes, but the events of Matthew 24 never happened in antiquity.
Such as . . ?

Neither were Edom and Basrah (the areas controlled by Hamas today) destroyed by the Lord as described in Isaiah 63.
It looks to me as if it was written as a telling of a past event in Isaiah.

The Islamic nations of Joel chapter 3 are still functioning nations today, they have not been judged as the text declares.
Those look to have been the nations that participated in the downfall of Israel before the Babylonian captivity.

The Psalms 83 nations that war to wipe Israel off the map never happened yet.
That happened when Israel was in the wilderness and when they were coming up into Canaan. You are apparently listening to some fear-mongering apocalyptic videos on YouTube.
edit on 10-7-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 10:35 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


I do hope we all realize that even if Jesus fulfilled all of the prophecies, we have another identity crisis... he wasn't the only one.

That's right, there's more than one "messiah" in the history of mankind. And the first one - pardon - ONE of the first ones to walk the Earth did so more than 1,000 years before Jesus...according to a manuscript currently housed in the U.K.
edit on 10-7-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 10 2012 @ 11:22 AM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 


Why are you here on this site ? To destroy peoples faith ? Or are you seeking to save us from our ignorance and we need you to save us ? Or are you hunting answers for your self ? Can you not see the validity of the Bible even by the correlation between what is prophesied and what is happening in the world ?









 
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