Guess who's coming to Red Flag?

Not so fast...

"The Voice of Russia reporting is a complete fabrication. The Russian Air Force (RFAF) was supposed to observe RED FLAG-Alaska (RF-A) 12-2, 6-14 Jun 12 but RFAF observation was cancelled due to reciprocity issues.

Instead, a RFAF one-star general participated in the Executive Observer Program at RF-A 14-19 Jun 12. RFAF participation at RED FLAG-Nellis was never considered and no further RFAF observation/participation in RF is planned at this time."

www.flightglobal.com...

reply to post by _Del_


Yeah, there was an article the other day that said the Air Force was now saying that they weren't coming. I think it would be funny as hell if they were and no one wanted it out until right before it started.

I guess we'll just have to live with this one if it's true.

theaviationist.com...

reply to post by Zaphod58


Id pay for front row tickets to that. The hell with the superbowl, worldcup, nascar crap. Sign me up for Red Flag!

They should have aircraft from every country come in and be rigged with the same laser system that the US Army and many others use for training purposes and just have at it. Make it a big tournament and replace the Olympics with Red Flag. Wont have to watch a bunch of grown men in tights prance around a wrestling mat.

With the Russian Airforce being there will that be with the OP FOR forces or will it be a coop training excercise with American forces, or more directly will we see some Mig on Falcon or Sukhoi on Eagle action?

Originally posted by 74Templar
reply to post by Zaphod58

 

So what are the USAF bringing to the table? It'd be interesting to see if they break out the F22s to go up against the Russian aircraft, but I don't know if the USAF would be publicly announcing if their most advanced aircraft were to be beaten by Russian MiG29s and Su27s.

Acutally that's what they would do (even by sandbagging US capabilities) so they can go bleat to Congress for MOR MONEH.

Originally posted by mbkennel

Acutally that's what they would do (even by sandbagging US capabilities) so they can go bleat to Congress for MOR MONEH.

Actually no they won't. Because there are highly conflicting reports about the Red Flag Alaska exercise with the Germans that just ended. The Germans claim that not only did they hold their own, there were a couple of days when they had Raptors for lunch, and the Raptor drivers claim that an "impartial" Raptor driver who wasn't involved with the exercise watched the HUD films, and saw few if any shots taken on Raptors.

Apparently, when WVR the 2D thrust vectoring wasn't the best choice for the Raptor. From what I understand there's a definite lag time involved with speed recovery, and there's a region when they're slow and vulnerable that can be taken advantage of. The first I heard about it was reading an article recently about that exercise. The last thing they're going to do is come out and say "We had our lunch handed to us by ". They're going to brag about how their aircraft are the best in the world, and no one can beat them, no matter what the results are.

Another side note, for years I have been hearing rumors that one of the the Russian flight demonstration groups would be coming to fly at the annual Nellis Open House / Aviation Nation held each year. I wonder if this is the year ?

Originally posted by NoSoup4U I never saw Russians on a U.S. Base in the homeland. This is absolutely absurd.

So this might be before your time in the USAF, this is from the Barksdale flightline in 1992. We got to meet some of the crews too. This photo was highly publicized at the time.

IN THE BLUE CORNER: THE BENCHMARK, Weighing in at 43,430 pounds, THE BILLION DOLLAR BABY, THE TEXAS TORNADO, and in some company the southern dandy, F-22 RAAAPTOOOORR! IN THE RED CORNER: THE CHALENGER, weighing in at 40,785 pounds, THE MAULER FROM MOSCOW, THE BEAST FROM EAST, and in some company the arctic airwolf, T-50 PAAAK FAAAAA! Alright fighters i want a clean fight, no name calling, racism, cyber warfare or stabilizer biting (al a mike tyson), LETS GET READY TO RUMMBUUUUUULLLE!

reply to post by Zaphod58


I was wondering about the acceleration claims by the Germans as well, AKA "speed recovery". I had the thought that the Raptor, due to the TV and it's ability to manuever at post stall speeds allows it to operate at lower speeds than the EF and that would create the apparency of poor speed recovery due lower speed than the EF to start with. After all, the EF has nowhere near the T/W ratio of the Raptor. somewhere around 1.2 or 1.3 if using LM's 39,000 per as a measuring stick.

We put the new "super Bowl" out in the desert. A "woodstock II". 500,000 attending for a weekend of fun, all action overhead and use the revenues to make more F-22s......

reply to post by nwtrucker


It has great slow speed maneuverability, but it takes time for them to accelerate back up to a high energy situation. I think that's what they're talking about when they talk about the low energy drop off.

reply to post by Zaphod58


Now that you mention it, inertia might to be a factor, the Raptor is huge compared to the EF.

reply to post by nwtrucker


The F-22 has an empty weight of 43,430lbs, and a loaded weight of 64,460lbs, compared to the Typhoon's 24,600 and 35,000 so it's almost double the weight. That's a huge advantage in a dogfight when it comes to energy management.

The F-22 has a thrust to weight ratio of between 1.09 and 1.26 compared to 1.15 with the Tyhpoon. So the Typhoon beats the Raptor slightly in some configurations, and loses to it in others, so I can see where the energy bleed issue can come in.

reply to post by Zaphod58


I'm a bit surprised by the 1.5 for the EF. I'm assuming that's the high-end number for the Typhoon. The T/W would vary for the EF as well depending on fuel, etc.
My understanding is the Rafale was below 1-1 T/W. If that's the case, then how did the Raffy achieve a 7-1 kill ratio over the EF in the UAE last year? I know there's no info on the restrictions of the event, but why would the EF people allow a huge disadvantage when there were potential sales involved?
Bah, no point wondering. They'll never let that out.....

reply to post by Zaphod58


Another thought,LOL, people who "sell' things tend to promote the high-side of their product. people who don't sell their product,(outside the U.S.)like the Raptor, tend to understate things.cough, cough.....

As soon as the Russian Fighters land on US Soil they will be seized.

Remember the American armored humvee's and other assets the Russian military seized in Georgia?

The Russia Fighters will be seized to settles Russia's debt for seizing that American military hardware.

Then Red Flag will be seeing American's flying those Russian fighters to see exactly what capabilities they really have.



Hint to Russia.....rewire every button and control so it doesn't work as expected. Make sure the ejection seats fire off if the fuel pump switch is flipped.

reply to post by Pervius


Oh whatever. They won't seize any Russian plane that lands on US soil. There is already an agreement for exchange flights for bombers to operate next year. We'll see some TU-95s, and they'll see some B-52s. Both operations are going to go off, and nothing is going to happen.

reply to post by Zaphod58


I'd enjoy reading that article. If you could post where I can read it, it would be appreciated. I am skepical of it off the top. Your 15s get smoked by the 22, almost effortlessly, if the reports are true. I believe the eagle would give the EF all sorts of trouble, especially if it keeps it's speed up. Still, there could be seems of weakness that need to be learned and avoided. I'd put my scheckles on the Raptor over the EF all day....

reply to post by nwtrucker


I'll see if I can find them again. There were a couple of them, that were similar, just one went into more detail than the other one. The one that's going to be hard to find is the one talking about the energy bleed, because I only saw one that even mentioned that.

reply to post by nwtrucker


Here you go. Mostly blog posts, but good analysis and good reading.

theaviationist.com...

While Grune does not directly say that the Eurofighters emerged as the overall victors, he strongly implies it.

"I put out some whiskey. If they come back with some good performances, and if you know what the goal is from a BFM setup, and you achieve that, then I will pay you whiskey," he says. "And I paid quite a lot of whiskey."

That account, however, is strongly disputed by USAF sources flying the F-22. "It sounds as though we have very different recollections as to the outcomes of the BFM engagements that were fought," one Raptor pilot says.

USAF sources say that the Typhoon has good energy and a pretty good first turn, but that they were able to outmanoeuvre the Germans due to the Raptor's thrust vectoring. Additionally, the Typhoon was not able to match the high angle of attack capability of the F-22. "We ended up with numerous gunshots," another USAF pilot says.

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